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Post by princessofvanfan on Sept 5, 2009 11:49:01 GMT -8
I can't, for the life of me, understand why BCF chose to build new ships that are smaller than the Spirit ships. We need boats that are as big, or bigger, than the Spirits. The Coastals are very nice and all, but I think bigger would have been better, for obvious reasons.  |
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 5, 2009 12:08:06 GMT -8
I can't, for the life of me, understand why BCF chose to build new ships that are smaller than the Spirit ships. We need boats that are as big, or bigger, than the Spirits. The Coastals are very nice and all, but I think bigger would have been better, for obvious reasons. In the short answer, it's probably no. For one thing, peak capacity and overloads are really only seen during the summer months. During the winter, the Spirits are more than adequate to keep up with traffic demand and running larger ships would simply have them sailing empty half the time. The size of ships is also partly dictated by the fact that they still need to be able to fit into the berths, and the schedule. Adding significantly more car capacity to a ferry means it takes that much longer to load and unload, which increases the turnaround times, so a bigger ship might actually cause more delays simply because of the extra time required to operate it. Also, with the economy and the higher fares and just about everything else arranged to wage war on people's wallets, BCFerries is actually seeing noticeable traffic decreases, so we would still end up with ships sailing half empty. Despite what some hasty conclusions may indicate: the reasons for needing bigger ships aren't really so obvious, nor are the reasons everyone keeps trying to pull up to discredit the Coastals and claim they are a bad design or a flawed concept. |
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 5, 2009 12:12:55 GMT -8
I don't believe BC Ferries had Route 1 in mind when building the Super-C's, at least not as replacements for the Spirits. I think the Super-C's were designed to be the workhorses of the fleet, of similar size and capacity to vessels currently serving on ALL of the major routes (ie. 2, 30, & 1). In the case of Route 1, Coastal Celebration replaced Queen of Saanich, and exceeds Saanich's capacity.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 5, 2009 20:03:57 GMT -8
Now that awhile has passed, I totally understand why they never built them bigger than they are. The deck 5 lounge is barely even open on the duke point run.
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Post by Curtis on Sept 5, 2009 21:38:39 GMT -8
That is true, Luke. But you also have to take into account that the Coastals were primarily designed for Route 2 while also being able to replace the spots emptied by the Vs on Route 1. So they weren't originally intended for Route 30 use. But saying that, you also have to note that Deck 5 isn't used so much on these routes either; but they do get used. Personally, I'm against having the CI on Route 30. Sure she has more truck space, but her passenger space and amenities are never at their full potential. Personally, I like the Coastal Lite idea Kam came up with. I still think, in an ideal world, the CI and CR should be on route 2, and route 30 should have a new coastal built custom. Basically the same coastals we have now, minus deck 6. Less weight, less wind drag, more fuel efficient and same vehicle capacity.   |
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Post by princessofvanfan on Sept 5, 2009 23:47:56 GMT -8
Well, if larger ships take longer to load and unload, why not make them a bit faster, like they did with the New West? I remember when the Alberni was new, before she was chopped and modified, it looked like she was doing 24-25 knots whenever I saw her shoot out of Departure Bay from Pipers Lagoon, and she was gone in no time. I remember people marvelling at her speed.
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Post by Mike C on Sept 6, 2009 0:18:05 GMT -8
Well, if larger ships take longer to load and unload, why not make them a bit faster, like they did with the New West? I remember when the Alberni was new, before she was chopped and modified, it looked like she was doing 24-25 knots whenever I saw her shoot out of Departure Bay from Pipers Lagoon, and she was gone in no time. I remember people marvelling at her speed. Making them faster would increase fuel consumption, and thus increase the overall costs to run the ships, making it not really worth it in the end. You have to bear in mind maintenance and overall operational COSTS when making these suggestions, PrincessOfVan... |
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
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Post by Koastal Karl on Sept 6, 2009 8:40:17 GMT -8
They need to put the Coquitlam on route 30! ;D Sorry Mikey I know you hate the Coquitlam! As much as I do like the Inspiration on route 30 I do agree with Curtis about the deck 5 issue. They should of built a specific coastal for route 30. Deck 5 has been used on route 30 when the odd big sports team or big groups have been onboard as I heard that somewhere. My mom had dropped a friend off last week at Duke Point for the 3:15pm last week and they told her the sailing before the 12:45pm was sold out of for foot passengers so it's good she got her there early as they left foot passengers behind. Now if the Inspiration was sold out for foot passengers and it was a crammed sailing you think they would open deck 5 but I doubt they would of just cause, well, it's BC Ferries and they are stupid sometimes. I was on the Renaissance last Wednesday and deck 5 was open. It was the 5:20pm sailing from Horseshoe Bay.
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Post by Mike C on Sept 6, 2009 10:30:13 GMT -8
They need to put the Coquitlam on route 30! ;D Sorry Mikey I know you hate the Coquitlam! Haha, well, I may not like the Coquitlam for various bad experiences, but I can't deny her efficiency.  At the end of the day, she get's the job done. |
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Post by Curtis on Sept 6, 2009 10:41:56 GMT -8
I agree on that one Karl. They should move the CI to Route 2 and replace her with a modified Coquitlam or Cowichan on Route 30. The only problem is that modifications have to be made and based on previous discussion, that is not going to be cheap. For Newer Members: It's not as simple as removing the Gallery Decks. The deck steel on the sides (under the gallery deck) is not as strong as the steel in the middle of the C's car deck. Where trucks usually line up. Well, if larger ships take longer to load and unload, why not make them a bit faster, like they did with the New West? I remember when the Alberni was new, before she was chopped and modified, it looked like she was doing 24-25 knots whenever I saw her shoot out of Departure Bay from Pipers Lagoon, and she was gone in no time. I remember people marvelling at her speed. Making them faster would increase fuel consumption, and thus increase the overall costs to run the ships, making it not really worth it in the end. You have to bear in mind maintenance and overall operational COSTS when making these suggestions, PrincessOfVan... Oh, and might I add BC Ferries has been there and done that. But they failed hard and now those ships or should I say "Cats" are off to Abu Dhabi. |
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 6, 2009 16:51:35 GMT -8
I think they should take the QoVancouver or the QoSaanich out of retirement, give whichever one is chosen a total refit, new engines and all, then put it on route 30. The Inspiration could go on route 2, and tadadum! we have a new vessel on route 2, further reducing conjestion at horshoe bay, also putting BCFS further in debt many more million dollars, lessening their budget for the proposed Northern Discovery and giving us ferrygeeks more time to ride the Chilliwack before her retirement!!!  |
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 7, 2009 8:40:07 GMT -8
I stick with my original opinion. 30 should have a new coastal built custom. Basically the same coastals we have now, minus deck 6. Less weight, less wind drag, more fuel efficient and same vehicle capacity. I guess they wouldn't need to try and make it go faster then, as it could go faster on it's own since it would be lighter, therefore floating a bit higher in the water, but still reducing wind resistance. good plan, but I still think they should take either Saan or Van out of retirement |
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 7, 2009 10:15:21 GMT -8
I stick with my original opinion. 30 should have a new coastal built custom. Basically the same coastals we have now, minus deck 6. Less weight, less wind drag, more fuel efficient and same vehicle capacity. I guess they wouldn't need to try and make it go faster then, as it could go faster on it's own since it would be lighter, therefore floating a bit higher in the water, but still reducing wind resistance. good plan, but I still think they should take either Saan or Van out of retirement *Sigh*... alright, okay... let me put this delicately: try to get a grip and face reality. Number one: the Saanich and the Van are gone, finito, bye bye, sweet dreams. Unlike people, ships don't often come out of retirement. It's a much more involved process which, at this point in the game, is simply not worth the effort, if only because it would involve having to repaint the slugs on the funnels. If you want them in service so bad, front the cash, buy one of them for yourself and start your own ferry service. See if you can get a provincial subsidee while you're at it. And, number two: try dealing with the reality at hand. Imagination is a good thing, but you still have to face the facts. You don't have the V's, and you won't ever have them again (Dane should be happy, his evil plan succeeded). So, you can't include them in your fleet planning or route allocations. You have the Coastals, deck 5 included, and you're just going to have to deal with that. All petty complaints about the design of the Coastals can be directed to BCFS management... I'm sure they'd love to hear them. Sadly, no one here at West Coast Ferries has now, nor has ever had any influence over the design of the ships. Besides that, I feel I have to inform you for your own sake that the ships are also already built and in operation, sorry to shatter your illusions, but your modifications are not likely to be incorporated by the shipyard into ships that are already in service. |
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 7, 2009 10:43:04 GMT -8
*Sigh*... alright, okay... let me put this delicately: try to get a grip and face reality. Number one: the Saanich and the Van are gone, finito, bye bye, sweet dreams. Unlike people, ships don't often come out of retirement. I'm sure BCFS explored the option of overhauling one of the V's (before they were retired) for a longer service life, like they did with QNW, and obviously found that it was not worth the effort. QNW was in a slightly better position for the re-fit option because she had already been re-engined several years before. However, in retrospect, I wonder if BCFS is re-examining that decision in light of the huge cost overruns that project experienced for a ship which is only going to be around for what, 10 more years? Don't get me wrong, I think the refurbished QNW is a beautiful ship. They did a nice job, but it's still a very cramped vessel when compared to the new Coastals. Sadly, no one here at West Coast Ferries has now, nor has ever had any influence over the design of the ships. Besides that, I feel I have to inform you for your own sake that the ships are also already built and in operation, sorry to shatter your illusions, but your modifications are not likely to be incorporated by the shipyard into ships that are already in service. I don't think anyone is talking about modifying the Coastals that are already in service. I think people are talking about possible future newbuilds from FSG to replace the Route 30 vessels. We all know that's going to be a lot of years down the road, and who knows what things will be like by then, but the idea of a Coastal-size ferry minus Deck 6, seems like a good solution for Route 30, and maybe even for Route 2 or 3 in the low-demand seasons. For now, as you have said, what we have is what we have. If it weren't for the Coastals extra vehicle capacity, I would suggest moving QNW back to Route 30, and CI to Route 1, at least during the summer. |
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Post by stingray on Sept 7, 2009 10:49:30 GMT -8
I feel that a scaled back version of the Coastal class will be a great addition to the fleet. A vessel designed haul less passengers and the same amount of vehicles as its three sister ships is just what BC Ferries needs for route 30. Though, a few of us here would like to see their return to service, the fact are the Vancouver and Saanich are now over 46 years old, rebuilding either one of them would cost about $50,000,000 and extend her working life only about ten years at most. A new scaled back Coastal class would cost between $100,000,000 and $115,000,000, yet, the company will have a new vessel that would be in service between 50-65 years. It will free up the Coastal Inspiration, who would join her sister ship, the Oak Bay and Cowichan on route 2 for the summer months. Letting both the Surrey and Coquitlam to work route 3, making the service hourly during the peak travel season. I even came up with a name for the new vessel (and before you ask me why I chose it, I'm indeed a huge fan of Star Trek.) the MV Coastal Enterprise. Stingray  . |
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Post by shipyard on Sept 7, 2009 11:56:12 GMT -8
I really don't understand why people are so disturbed by the unused deck 5. No one talks about removing the extra lounges off the Burnaby, or the unused buffet areas on the Vs (when they were still around). There would be major $$$ involved just to engineer the changes at the building stage of the project, vs. using pre-existing plans.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 7, 2009 15:59:50 GMT -8
I really don't understand why people are so disturbed by the unused deck 5. No one talks about removing the extra lounges off the Burnaby, or the unused buffet areas on the Vs (when they were still around). There would be major $$$ involved just to engineer the changes at the building stage of the project, vs. using pre-existing plans. Well the V's are old, and they actually used the buffets back in the V's heyday. The Burnaby's lounge, i'm kinda perturbed, but no one else seems to be. The Coastals on the other hand are brand new, and it seems like they just wasted lots of money building on more passenger space then was actually needed. They could have almost built another ferry. |
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Koastal Karl
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Post by Koastal Karl on Sept 7, 2009 16:46:51 GMT -8
The Burnaby is an older ship so it dosent really matter but the Inspiration is a new ship which is why it seems odd they arent using deck 5 which seems like a waste of space for a new ships and to have a deck that has never been used.
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Post by Dane on Sept 7, 2009 16:55:25 GMT -8
Deck 5 is used on every sailing of the CC, and with a lot of regularity on normal sailings of the CR (i.e. the sailings ferry nerds aren't on). Really it is only the CI that it isn't utilized, and when the ships were in design that's not where it was going...
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Post by stingray on Sept 7, 2009 17:27:10 GMT -8
I really don't understand why people are so disturbed by the unused deck 5. No one talks about removing the extra lounges off the Burnaby, or the unused buffet areas on the Vs (when they were still around). There would be major $$$ involved just to engineer the changes at the building stage of the project, vs. using pre-existing plans. Well the V's are old, and they actually used the buffets back in the V's heyday. The Burnaby's lounge, i'm kinda perturbed, but no one else seems to be. The Coastals on the other hand are brand new, and it seems like they just wasted lots of money building on more passenger space then was actually needed. They could have almost built another ferry. I have rode a few time on a V-class with a capacity load in the late 80's early 90's when lived in Victoria and the words packed over cattle car comes to mind. I since rode on one of the Spirit class with a capacity load and if you quickly find seat with good view and don't have screaming kids near you, it is nice ride. I'm sure from what I seen in the open house that a ride on the Coastal class with a capacity load with will about the same. Stingray |
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Post by Nickfro on Sept 7, 2009 17:29:40 GMT -8
I was on the Coastal Renaissance on Route 2 this past Saturday. The 830am sailing was full (vehicle wise) but Deck 5 remained closed except for the TV lounge at the #2 end. I caught the 730pm sailing home which was only half full, and Deck 5 was closed for that sailing as well. I must admit I was pretty surprised to see Deck 5 closed on Saturday morning of a long weekend, but the ferry didn't feel very cramped considering the closed portion.
Sure you can say that the Coastals feel overbuilt for Routes 2 and 30, but these ships will be around for 40 some odd years. Over the lifetime of these vessels, their designed space will be worth it. I'd rather have a newbuild be initially too large for its route as opposed to being too small! Remember the Pacificats??
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Post by QSaanich on Sept 7, 2009 19:52:55 GMT -8
If the coastal's had a Deck 3 installed they could carry up to 450 cars, i find that the passenger space is enough to suit today's needs.
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Post by gordon on Sept 7, 2009 20:05:45 GMT -8
Would the installation of hoistable Gallery decks on the CR not make sense at some point, because this would give Rt#2 mre ehicle Capacity as well as allowing her the flexibility to fill in for the CI when she is in for refit.
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Post by Balfour on Sept 7, 2009 20:20:47 GMT -8
Would the installation of hoistable Gallery decks on the CR not make sense at some point, because this would give Rt#2 mre ehicle Capacity as well as allowing her the flexibility to fill in for the CI when she is in for refit. The Coastals are designed to be retro-fitted with ramp decks. However I think BC Ferries will do this when they feel the time is right. |
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 7, 2009 21:20:49 GMT -8
I didn't think hoistable ramps were used that often anymore, not even on the Spirits, because of the additional time required to deploy them. When talking with one of the crew members on Island Home last fall, I asked him if they use the platforms much, and he said they rarely used them, even in the summer when traffic was at its peak, because it put them off schedule so much. I think WSF was wise to not incorporate that feature into their Island Home vessels.
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At the end of the day, she get's the job done.
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