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Post by Scott on Feb 26, 2007 19:21:20 GMT -8
Here's another topic of discussion I was thinking about recently, partly inspired by Flugel Horn's comments in the thread dealing with the possible resumption of ferry service to Woodfibre (this time a residential subdivision): I wonder how the system works now, for a community like Woodfibre to get their ferry-route added to the BCFS Coastal Ferry Agreement. I suppose that they'd have to make application to the ferry commissioner? And I suppose that funding for the route would need to flow from the Province to BCFS....which I suppose would be an amendment to the Ferry Agreement. So how does a ferry route get started? There have only been two publicly funded ones recently that I can think of - Duke Point - Tsawwassen and the Discovery Coast route. Most of the other routes have "been" for a long time. Who decides why Lasqueti Island gets a passenger ferry but Kuper Island with a similar population gets a car ferry? And if someday, wealthy semi-retired business people outnumber the treehuggers and hippies on Lasqueti Island, who and how will it be decided that a car ferry is needed? Given the popularity of the coast, it's probably only a matter of time before some islands will become more populated and demand for publicly subsidized ferries will grow. We can even use the Woodfibre proposal as an example of things to come. I await your insight and comments:)
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Mar 2, 2007 23:31:31 GMT -8
Most of the existing BC Ferries' services to coastal islands replaced small private operations, which were, in some cases, literally 'mom and pop' companies, as in the case of the Savoie family on Hornby. There aren't many places where the government initiated the first car ferry service; one exception being Cortes, where it is said the impetus was a SoCred cabinet minister having recreational property. Many of the private operations were started by people who had a direct interest in connecting themselves with the mainland or Vancouver Island. Transportation of commuters and tourists was not a primary concern. That's something which has certainly changed.
Virtually all of these operations were subsidized by the government, and at some point in the growth of each of the islands it became apparent that the little companies lacked the capital to keep up with demand. In some cases islanders lobbied the government to take over services, and there seems to have been a decision by the SoCreds, those great 'free enterprisers', that government service was more desireable than giving the little operators the vastly increased subsidies they would need to build larger vessels.
Lasqueti Islanders can almost come to blows when someone suggests paving a mile of road, so it's very doubtful they'll be looking for car ferry service any time soon. Gambier and Keats hardly have the population to make it worthwhile, and I believe every other island currently not served has considerably fewer residents still. Unlike years past, there are no islands being served by a private car ferry service, and BC Ferries' current incarnation makes it very unlikely that they would be willing to take on service to a marginal island without a hefty subsidy, and that wouldn't happen unless , say, Gordon Campbell bought waterfront on Keats.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 9, 2007 19:13:03 GMT -8
“Hornby Island- The Ebb and Flow”, by Elizabeth Smith and David Gerow, (Ptarmigan Press, 1988), gives an account of the development of ferry service to the island. This is a very abbreviated summary of that story; direct quotes from the book are in italics. Photos, except the colour shot of the Albert J. Savoie at the end, are also from the book. Isolated from the mainland and Vancouver Island, Hornby was first settled by Europeans probably in the late 1860s. The first steamer services, provided by the CPR and Union Steamships, began serving the island in the 1890s, and through the 1920s, provided a handful of sailings per week to Vancouver or Victoria. A frequent connection to Courtenay was the most logical transportation requirement for the island, and one which the steamship companies didn’t provide. In 1923, the Savoie family started doing regular runs into town from their property on the northwest side of the island. Albert Savoie describes the early days: In those days, there was no way you could come to Hornby and have a boat and think you were just going to haul your own produce and that’s it. We didn’t want to have anything to do with transportation because the difficulties were too great. But people were just beseeching us all the time to give them rides and pick up sacks of feed… we didn’t want to for a lot of reasons. There were no landings anywhere, and with our long beach, the boat had to be kept a quarter of a mile out. Then we’d come back from town and it’d be blowing north-west and rough and we’d have to unload feed; row out to the boat and load feed into the rowboat, come in with the surf, unload, carry it up to the shed and go back and forth like that. If it wasn’t for all the free labour, five kids who were good seamen and who worked hard, it wouldn’t have worked!They started with a 26’ vessel, and in 1929, Albert, who had taken over from his brother Leon, had a 34’ vessel built in Vancouver which served until 1940. Travelling to Courtenay for $1.25 on the ‘Water Lily’ could quite an adventure, as described by long time islander Hilary Brown: Going up and coming back, your seating depended on what freight and how much was being hauled. There could have been cans of cream going to the creamery or sacks of potatoes or turnips, so you sometimes sat on the freight. On the way back, everyone who had gone up and had loaded up in town, some of it cases of beer and some had already taken on some internally in town. Sometimes we’d be coming into Comox Bay and be hailed from the cannery by someone who’d been left behind, probably from spending too much time in the beer parlour. So, Mr Savoie would pull over and pick him up. There were wooden benches all along both walls inside the cabin, covered with unwashed sheepskins. There were diesel fumes inside and often, when someone opened the cabin door, soot would blow in onto people. It was common for passengers to wear old clothes on top of their town clothes during the trip so they would look presentable in Courtenay. It was a long day; five hours to and from Hornby, so you didn’t go unless you really had to. Mr Savoie was recognized as a fine seaman, and everyone had a lot of confidence in him and in Albert. Often, those trips were in pretty dirty weather and the skipper needed a good deal of skill in handling the boat safely.The Water Lily: comfy seats on the haystacks for the ride to Courtenay in the 1930s.In 1930, the present ferry service to Denman Island from Buckley Bay began, but it would be more than twenty years before Hornby’s service started, despite the Hornby Island Farmers’ Institute convincing the Courtenay-Comox Board of Trade in 1931 to pass a resolution supporting construction of a terminal on the east side of Denman. Not all Hornbyites supported a ferry, and those who did, couldn’t all agree on the best route. The matter languished somewhat, and through the ‘40s various options were tried, by way of scows and landing barges. The CPR had eliminated their run up the east coast of Vancouver Island, and Hornbyites had received little in the way of sympathetic hearings from politicians. Albert Savoie had operated a succession of vessels, but what was really needed to help farmers and businesses on the island was a vehicle ferry. Incredibly, Savoie had been told by local MLA H.J. Welch that the only hope he had of getting a government subsidy for the service was if a boat was already built and operating on the route. Taking a huge gamble, Savoie, with the backing of the Hornby Island Credit Union, constructed the ‘Hornby Island V’, and had it in operation by 1953; islanders donated money and labour to build a suitable landing. Now came the matter of ‘landing’ a subsidy. Albert Savoie: We went to Victoria…. Politically, we thought we had things right with our MP Jack Gibson trying to help us all he could and Welch, Independent in the Coalition Government, assuring us that it would be written up. Then there was an election and Social Credit was elected for the first time. We thought, “Oh, we’re beaten now.” We thought our house of cards had collapsed. We went to see Mr Gaglardi, Minister of Highways, and he wasn’t going to give us anything. Well, we wouldn’t leave! Then he got haggling with me, asking how much did I need. I said, “$10,000.” He said, “Oh, ten, eh? Hmm.” So we haggled and haggled and then he said, “Listen, could you take…? I’ll give you $5,000.” I didn’t like that very much, but in the end, they called for tenders and I bid $5,000 and got it. But he did say that if I ran it for the year and knew my costs I could cancel the contract after the year and answer the next tender. So, I did that and got my $10,000 and with that, I could barely make ends meet. I never did make any money, and believe me, we’re doing far better on our Old Age Pension than we ever did with the ferry.The first Savoie- built car ferry, the Hornby Island V, at Gravelly BayA landing had been built at Gravelly Bay on the east side of Denman in 1942, and with the backing of the Credit Union, Savoie’s initiative, and the help of islanders in donating tons of cement and offering their labour at the Hornby landing, ferry service was initiated. Islanders now had a regular, dependable connection to the outside world, and a way to get their products to market. The ‘Hornby Island V’ carried two cars, which backed on or backed off, and was replaced by another Savoie built craft, the six car ‘Lorraine S’, which served until Savoie’s retirement, and the start of Highways Department service, in 1971. Worship at the shrine of Flensburger, with all the bells and whistles and pretty pictures? No thanks. My admiration goes to these British Columbians who basically built ferries in their own backyard. The Lorraine S., under construction. Retirement of a ferries pioneer. Albert, at right, 1971.in Lambert Channel, 1983. Photo by John McLachlan.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 9, 2007 21:12:05 GMT -8
Neil: thanks for taking the time to type-out and assemble this readers-digest version of Hornby ferry history. Much enjoyed!
Question for you: - What are the various ferries that you have taken over the years to Hornby? - Did you ever ride the A.J.Savoie? - What were your best and least favourites?
- Are there any Savoie family members still living on Hornby today?
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Post by NMcKay on Aug 10, 2007 12:14:43 GMT -8
WHat is the population of some of these islands??? can someone tell me?
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Aug 10, 2007 13:13:46 GMT -8
Flugel: The only ferries I recall taking to Hornby over the twenty plus years we've been going there are the Albert J. Savoie, Nimpkish, Kahloke, and Tachek. Maybe there was another k-barge back in the '80s, but I don't recall. Always liked the Albert and her sisters for their turn-on-a-dime manoeuvrability, and the Tachek is a favorite. Thumbs down to any k-barge. The Savoie name is still present on Hornby. Klatawa Teen: hover on the island names on this page for year round populations: www.islandstrust.bc.ca/
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Post by stvfishy on Aug 10, 2007 14:05:22 GMT -8
One route I have wondered about is a summer run between the gulf and San Juan Islands (Sidney(now run by BCFS) ->SanJuan(new terminal on west side of the big island) ->Fulford(Saltspring) ->SanJuan ->Sidney)hmmmmm...
When in Victoria I've thought about hopping over to the San Juans for a night or 2. However, the WSF schedule is discouraging. The noon run goes straight through to the mainland. In the past wasn't it more of a milk run? The evening Friday Harbour stopover gets in kinda late to search for a place to stay.
Speculation - my understanding(feel free to correct me): -Some islanders actually against more ferry service - value their isolation. -Washington State has exclusivity on routes within the state. -WS cannot put in a competing landing within 5miles of an existing terminal(is that as the crow flies or coastline?) -Would BCFS & WSF have to spin off a joint 3rd company? -Would border & custom agencies discourage this route? - a headache. Would they prefer fewer international crossings?
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Post by Scott on Aug 10, 2007 17:27:57 GMT -8
Populations: Source: www.vancouverisland.comHornby Island - 1000 Denman Island - 1100 Quadra Island - 4000 Cotes Island - 950 Gabriola Island - 4000 Thetis Island - 350 Kuper Island - 302 Saltspring Island - 10,000 Pender Islands - 2000 Saturna Island - 350 Mayne Island - 900 Galiano Island - 1035 Bowen Island - 3362 Texada Island - 1200 Cormorant Island - 1275 Malcolm Island - ~1000 Populations change with the seasons I'm sure. The numbers might not be 100% accurate, but give you a pretty good idea of how many people live where.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jun 9, 2009 9:34:07 GMT -8
While in Miners Bay Books recently, I picked up a 25 year old history book, mostly about Mayne, called, surprisingly, 'Mayne Island & the Outer Gulf Islands: A History', by Marie Elliott (Gulf Islands Press).
The development of steamer and ferry service was chronicled fairly well, along with the effect that had on island commerce and life. Also covered was yet another example of our disgusting treatment of Japanese Canadian citizens during the Second World War.
Anyway... a summary of the years prior to and the start of car ferry service to the outer islands, starting at 1950, and up to the time full BC Ferries service was implemented in 1963.
Prior to1950 -Islands served by CPR's Princess Mary, supplemented by the Motor Princess from the mainland in summer.
1950 -Motor Princess retired because of new fire regulations, leaving Princess Mary as the only vessel serving the islands. Service to Pender, Mayne, Galiano, and Saturna three times a week.
1951 -Princess Elaine replaces the 'Mary. Only wharves at Ganges and Port Washington are big enough for the 'Elaine, so other islands serviced by the smaller Princess Maquinna.
1952 -New wharves at Saturna, Galiano, and Mayne bring service from the 'Elaine four times a week in summer, on route from Vancouver to Sidney. Service once a week in off season.
1953 -Coast Ferries and Gulf Island Ferries express interest in starting service to outer islands. -CPR increases winter service to three a week, also using Princess Norah and Princess of Alberni.
1954 -'Elaine, 'Alberni, and 'Norah stop three or four times a week between Vancouver and Victoria. -Black Ball expresses interest; negotiates unsuccessfully to buy Gulf Island Ferries. -Coast Ferries begins service between mainland (Steveston?) and islands, using the Lady Rose. Unsubsidized. -Concerted community effort to convince Province to start subsidized service from Swartz Bay, using the Cy Peck.
1955 -bridge completed between North and South Pender. -Plebiscite of Mayne, Galiano, and Saturna residents overwhelmingly favors ferry connection with mainland. -Province announces subsidy for Gulf Island Ferry Co. to start service between Swartz Bay and outer islands.
1956 -Refurbished Motor Princess begins service between Swartz and outer islands; twice daily summer, once in winter. -Coast Ferries, previously opposed to subsidies, applies for one to continue operating the Lady Rose, and are granted $500 a month. Yes, that's $5-0-0. -Delegation of islanders asks Province to subsidize a better service than that provided by the 'Rose (capacity two cars); Phil Gaglardi rejects the idea as uneconomical. -Islands population drops, 1951-'56, due to poor boat service.
1957 -Residents press Province to take over GIFC for better service. -New docks completed at Montague Harbour and Village Bay, eliminating Motor Princess stops at Sturdies Bay and Miners Bay.
1958 -Coast Ferries forms a subsidiary company, Gulf Islands Navigation Co, with investment from outer islands residents, and launches the Island Princess, connecting islands with mainland. Lady Rose no longer used.
1959 -Province announces a public ferry system.
1960 -Coast Ferries lobbies against subsidized service, claims they can make money without. -After much dissent over conflicting vision of service needs and allegiances to GIFC or Coast Ferries, islanders unite to ask for Provincial takeover of ferry services. Protests over the Cy Peck being used over the winter months. -new Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay route causes Coast Ferries to drop their Ganges stop.
1961 -Island Princess adds Sidney to its route four times a week. -Government turns down Sparky New's request to use the new Tsawwassen terminal to shorten the Coast Ferries-Gulf Island Navigation Co. route. -Gaglardi suggests that one of the small companies buy the other out; New makes an unsuccessful offer. -In June, Province announces it will be buying the Gulf Island Ferry Co. from the Mouat family. -In November, after unsuccessful talks with the government over subsidies and bridge proposals, Coast Ferries removes the Island Princess from its Gulf Islands route. There is no connection with the mainland until the arrival of BC Ferries' Queen of The Islands in July of 1963.
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Post by Dane on Jun 9, 2009 14:40:28 GMT -8
I have always been curious how route 13 was formed? Keats is so insubstantial, in particular, and Gambier less so.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jun 9, 2011 10:26:42 GMT -8
Further to the post a while back regarding the development of Hornby's ferry service, here's an article from the June edition of the little Hornby paper, the First Edition.
Written by Bertie Stonehouse.
In the early 1950s, Albert Savoie asked Keith and Bill Fowler of the Sea Breeze Lodge if our guests would be willing to pay to have their cars brought over from Gravelly Bay. A resounding "YES!" was the answer. So, Albert, Keith, and Bill went to Victoria to ask if the government would help with the ferry and ramps. A resounding "NO!" was the answer there.
On the way home, Albert said, "I'm going to build a ferry anyhow." So he mortgaged his home and built a two car ferry. The ramp at Gravelly Bay was way too short and couldn't be used at low tide. So Keith, Sid Slade, and Leo Savoie got busy and extended it twenty feet. Central Builders gave them most of the cement mixture free and Keith had the mixer.
At first Albert docked at Phipps Point, but it wasn't long enough in some tides. Jack Parnell offered the space at Shingle Spit for a better landing. It's now used as a public boat launching spot. But at the beginning there was no rocky breakwater or lights.
The two car ferry was scary for some people because if you drove on at Gravelly Bay, you had to back off at Hornby. Meanwhile, the government decided to give Albert a small subsidy. A few years later, Albert built a six car ferry. Then a few years later the government decided to send a larger ferry to Hornby called the Westwood. Keith got on the phone and told the powers-that-be it should be renamed the Albert J. Savoie, and Albert and Margaret should be allowed to bring it 'home'. The government actually agreed! It was a well deserved tribute to Albert and it was in use for many years.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 19, 2011 21:15:11 GMT -8
Here is some information on the genesis of the car-ferry service to Bowen Island. - from the Bowen Island Museum's summer-2011 exhibit. (I think that "BIPOA" is Bowen Island Property Owners Association...)
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KE7JFF
Chief Steward
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Post by KE7JFF on Aug 20, 2011 2:09:07 GMT -8
With Regards to CBSA and US CBP, they will go where requested; however if you have an arrival at an odd time like at a middle of a normal shift change I know CBSA tends to request compensation for that. Both agencies do prefer you use dedicated ports of entry for passenger services.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 6, 2014 20:12:43 GMT -8
There is a survey currently being done to gauge interest in a Southern Gulf Islands water taxi. Find the survey here, for a glimpse at how the planning for a possible transportation route is considered. S U R V E Y
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Apr 6, 2014 21:33:37 GMT -8
There is a survey currently being done to gauge interest in a Southern Gulf Islands water taxi. Find the survey here, for a glimpse at how the planning for a possible transportation route is considered. S U R V E YFascinating idea. I see the Capitol Regional District (CRD) logo at the bottom of the survey page... I wonder if this means that there could be CRD money available for this service, or simply that they are co-ordinating the survey. With the profusion of transit services to far flung municipal corners both in the Victoria and Vancouver region- many of which operate at much less than the 20% capacity threshold expected of the BC Ferries lifeline routes- why not consider some basic non-vehicular ferry routes as well?
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Post by Mike C on Apr 6, 2014 23:17:10 GMT -8
An inherent advantage of using a smaller, passenger-only water-taxi style ship, is that it can fit into smaller spaces - i.e. more "urban" areas of the islands - in this case, that could be Port Washington, or Ganges, or Miner's Bay. This would definitely help fulfill the goal of going car-free for the islanders.
I think this idea does have merit, particularly on weekdays for commuting, or midday-weekend shopping trips to Ganges or Victoria. The Capital Regional District would be wise to evaluate the feasibility of this service, for the benefit of the communities along the potential route.
Kudos to the CRD for not waiting on the Province to take the initiative to change BCFS service to how it should be. They identified a need, and should pursue it. I hope other local governments follow suit.
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