timo
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Post by timo on Sept 30, 2011 5:02:52 GMT -8
Production has started on the Viking Line ferry for the almost 11 hour Turku-Stockholm run. She is to be powered by LNG and will make one overnight and one day crossing daily, replacing the 1989-built ISABELLA. Some pictures of interior and exterior. www.vikingline.fi/download/start_of_production_slideshow.pdf
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Post by Starsteward on Oct 1, 2011 12:27:56 GMT -8
Wow! That's quite the video and specs. that Viking Line is proposing for the approximately 11 hour run from Turku to Stockholm and, will be powered by LNG! Calling the Viking Line's vessel a 'cruise liner' and upon checking the engineering specs. and passenger amenities for this baby, I believe Viking Line operates in a totally different world than does BC Ferries and the vessels they use on the 'Northern Runs'. I admit that comparing Viking and BCF is comparing apples and oranges as the two companies operated in vastly different markets, however, it has long been my contention that while the 'nature of the business' may be more clearly defined in the Scandinavian market, BC Ferries has Never truly figured out just what the service really is, on the North Coast and certainly have Never understood how to market those two ferry routes in particular. Is it a ferryboat service or is it a mini/quasi-liner service for tourists, especially during the Summer schedule or both? While I am impressed with the specs. and ammenities shown for the new Viking Line 'build', I am not proposing that BC Ferries should have ordered a similar type of ship to replace either the Queen of the North or the Queen of Prince Rupert, but IF: BC Ferries had looked at the history of how they have operated the Northern Runs, ie, departure locations, most of which have been regular fixtures but also included trial attempts to do the long haul from Tsawwassen, etc. to scheduling, fare structures et al., and had been able to construct a long term plan as to how to serve AND market any kind of service that started perhaps South of Port Hardy and proceeded up the entire coast to end up in the North, at Prince Rupert and Skidegate. The sudden and unexpected loss of the Queen of the North, did put a crimp in plans to develop a master plan over time, as BC Ferries needed a 'boat' and quickly. Given that the QPR's service period was also finalized, a time crunch didn't permit for a long term service or marketing plan that, as yet, does not exist. In the meantime, service on the Mid-Coast and North Coast is handled by: One new vessel that meets the route's needs during the Summer months, the 'NorAd' which is more hated than loved by all the folks she endeavours to serve, and the Queen of Chilliwack that is adequate for her Summer service but an odd duck on any of her replacement route duties. Face it: BC Ferries marginally operates a 'market-based'/cost effective' fleet of vessels to handle the seasonal demands of the routes they serve and NO vessels that cost effectively handle of off-season demands of those routes. Forgive my rant here, but, I do believe that a 'ferry-boat' marketing plan and a tourist-cruise liner marketing plan could be implemented if there was: a). the Corporate know-how available to devise such plans, and b). the Corporate will-power to actually give those two marketing plans some professional thougt and follow-through! In essence what I'm ranting here about is, that there can be and should be an expansion of the overall business plan for the entire coast and, in consultation with the Provincial Government of the day, the Ferry Commission and all relevant stakeholders, draft a bold master plan for Coastal Marine service from Tsawwassen to Prince Rupert and all potential community markets in between. As a fun exercise for interested Forum members and friends, perhaps a one or two day seminar/get together at a location mutually convenient for as many as possible, to come with plans/ideas, that those planning to attend could formulalte in advance and share with the group. Our Forum membership embodies a vast wealth of knowledge of many of the issues that could be considered in a new 'Master-Plan'. Knowledge that could be gleaned from many professional backgrounds our members possess as well as ex-BCF mariners who possess historical operational backgrounds. In short, amoungst our many members and friends, the question could be asked: "why is anyone else's ability to come up with a new Master Plan" any more or less feasible than the talent we possess within our own group??? Geeesh, now who posted that darn story about the Viking Line that's got me all fired up??
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timo
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Post by timo on Oct 2, 2011 3:04:49 GMT -8
Sorry for getting you worked up - naah, not really.
Well, the average passenger load on sailing is 1000 passengers, so it is a different market - but also a different market idea. Most of the passengers during 9 months of the year are "minicruisers" (who come onboard for about 23 hours and party onboard) or cruisers (who usually are Finns going to Stockholm for shopping). The minicruisers get really cheap tickets, occasionally even free tickets, as the idea is to get them to spend on board - also the competition is unbelievable. The ships also carry cargo. During the three summer months many passengers are motorists heading for a summer holiday, and they do pay for their tickets. During the summer the ships are packed to capacity.
As for geography: Stockholm and its area has a population of over 1 million, Turku has about 160 000. Especially from Finland the passengers do come however from quite a large area, almost half of the country. The reasons are that the entertainment onboard is usually made by local top artists, and the alcohol and tobacco sold onboard is cheaper than ashore.
So comparing an international ferry route selling tax-free goods with a domestic one is tricky. However there might have been possibilities for BC Ferries as well to create a more cruise-like experience on the route, but this requires ships with more cabins.
As for the Sonia/Northern Adventure. She has to be put into perspective. She was intended for domestic Greek or Italian services, built more or less on speculation and is equipped for that kind of traffic. Also, in my opinion they got a lot of ship for that money as she is still modern, although not perfect. One has to take into account also her price and operating costs compared to other available tonnage from the same time. Here a list of ships sold around that same time of which I have price information. The names are the names they had when sold in 2007-08:
COLOR FESTIVAL 1985 for 49 MEUR. She was an overnight cruise ferry, originally from the Turku-Stockholm run, with a 2000 passenger capacity with about 1800 beds in about 600 cabins and with a car capacity of about 300 US-cars, or 1000 Lane Meters of cargo. MELOODIA 1979 for 12,8 MEUR. Overnight ferry originally from Viking Line, with 1900 passengers and about 800 beds, but mostly in very small cabins. Some 300 US cars or 700 Lane meters of cargo and maybe 50 cars. SANSOVINO 1989 for 11,3 MUSD. Italian domestic ferry, about 700 passengers, about 300 beds, and maybe 150 US-size cars. However, she was already then plagued by engine trouble, and her interiors are unbelievable. Not in a good way though. She is a good example of a state-owned company ordering from another state-owned company and getting equipment from state owned companies... Believe me, if people complain about the Nor Ad, this one they had torched! VITTORE CARPACCIO 1981 for 3,0 MEUR. Originally Egyptian ferry, technically acceptable but was in bad shape. Some 600 passengers, 280 beds in very small cabins, and like SANSOVINO, not all with shower and toilet. Car capacity about 100 or 192 Lane Meters and some cars. SPIRIT OF TASMANIA III 1995 for 65 MEUR. A 27-knot ex Superfast vessel. 1400 passengers, 626 beds in 200 cabins, almost 2000 Lane meters of cargo or over 500 US-size cars. PRINCESS OF SCANDINAVIA 1976 for 16,0 MEUR. About 1500 passenger, 1600 beds, and some 300 US-size cars.
Now, as for operating costs... COLOR FESTIVAL had a crew of about 170, and can be run with about crew 100 onboard. MELOODIA a crew of about 100. PRINCESS OF SCANDINAVIA about 150 and SPIRIT OF TASMANIA III about 70. SANSOVINO and VITTORE CARPACCIO about 50.
The point is - of all the ships available then I believe the SONIA was perhaps the best solution. While for instance COLOR FESTIVAL would have been loved, she would be way too expensive to run in the winter. Unless all of a sudden one can guarantee about 1000 passengers on every crossing. If foreign service crew was allowed, then there might be some economy, but those passengers still have to be lured onboard. This means high-class dining, good entertainment, gambling and so on. (Although on the Baltic ferries gambling is not nowhere near gambling on real cruise ships, it is more an additional thing - and counted as average per passenger gambler spends seldom more than 5 Euro and usually much less!)
I have worked on these Baltic ferries and travel regularly with them.
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Post by Starsteward on Oct 2, 2011 12:00:09 GMT -8
Thanks for the additional information about the Baltic Ferrys, especially the insight provided as to how they operated. You hit the nail on the head when you spoke of ' a different market idea' and 'mini-cruisers'. These 'marketing' ideas is exactly what I was alluding to in terms of BC Ferries never having alternative foci for the Northern runs, while basically operating those runs with a 'ferry-boat' mentality. No vision, no creative plans to really take advantage of how to show case the North Coast to the world and devise a marketing plan in order to attract tourists/passengers to grow capacity beyond the usual increase in traffic during the Summer schedule. In the mid to late 1960's the Queen of Prince Rupert sailed at full passenger and vehicle capacity on most trips, Northbound and Southbound. In the early days the QPR had 106 cabins on 3 different decks, which offered passengers basically 3 different cabin rates. I'm not all that displeased with the Sonia, but she does present some unique operational dysfunctions, the main one being that she is not a ro-ro ferry. I alluded to the fact that BC Ferries did not have a significant time frame in which to find a replacement vessel for the Queen of the North, and looking at the information you have added to this thread, you may be quite correct in stating that the poor old Sonia was the best of a poor lot of vessels to choose from. I am a very interested in the various marketing strategies deployed by ferry companies in many parts of the world, and I am totally aware that while we in British Columbia operate in a different market place from other jurisdictions, I remain totally convinced that we can create a bold marketing plan of our own, a plan which would reflect, but not be solely based on our local operational limitations, but rather a master marketing plan which would "dare to go, where ferry corporation minds have feared to go before"
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Post by cobblehillian on Oct 2, 2011 15:56:46 GMT -8
There is an additional ship not mentioned in the list of possible Queen of the North replacements for sale in 2007-2008. The MS Ålandsfärjan, a Viking Lines ship was on offer at the time. Although older (1972) she was in excellent condition. A mid-life refit was done in 2002. She did have some issues in terms of BC Ferries operations, not the least of which was very limited sleeping accommodation. Viking had been using it on its two hour Marieham-Kapellskär route. BC Ferries did look at the ship and rejected it. The rationale for rejection is explained in the consultant's report done for BCF on the used vessel purchase process after the Q of N sinking. The Ålandsfärjan was subsequently renamed the MS Expedition and refitted for high end polar cruising. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_ExpeditionThe ship may have made a good interim replacement vessel requiring minimal refit. She, however, probably wouldn't have much use once a suitable Q of N replacement was found or built. The economics of Baltic ferry operations vary by nationality of owning company, specific routes, and type (Cruise or transportation) of voyage. Some companies e.g. Scandlines have operations with similarities to BCF's operations. BCF's interest in cruising may have been partly stimulated by seeing Baltic operations first hand from numerous visits to Flensberg and the surrounding area. Viking and Silja and both have extensive operations from Åland Islands, and both lines have voyages anywhere from 2-12 hours. Cruises may last up to three days. Having a stop in Åland allows these lines to provide duty-free shopping, the only European duty free shopping on voyages/flights between EU member countries. The Åland Islands are a semi-autonomous province of Finland, but ethnically Swedish. They have negotiated some pretty good arrangements over the years. Beside the only (excepting Livigno, a small isolated Italian enclave on the Swiss border and the distant Canary Islands) duty free operation for internal EU travellers they are allowed to operate casinos on Baltic ferries to finance their education system. The artists rendering of the new Viking ship's interior shows a duty free shop. These shops are big money machines and are what make many of these ships possible. I have been in some shops that are the size of a Safeway store. The casinos and gambling machines generate a modest profit. The cost of transportation and meals is very reasonable. There are extensive discount and incentive fares. They are much cheaper than BCF's offerings. They transport you cheaply (€80 for a car + 4 passengers Helsinki to Stockholm-16 hours) and provide you with expenditure opportunities to eat, drink, gamble, shop, and sleep in luxury. It seems to be a recipe for success.
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timo
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Post by timo on Oct 2, 2011 22:48:09 GMT -8
About ÅLANDSFÄRJAN: I liked the wording "very limited sleeping accomodation" - meaning most of the crew had their quarters under the cardeck and passenger cabins did not exist. They could have been built into the shop, however, were maybe 20 decent cabins could have been added. The main issue with her must have been the engines, though. The new owners were warned that re-engining her would be a good idea, but that was about the only thing that was left undone in her conversion into a cruise ship. Something the new owners have regretted as her cruises have been slightly erratic at times, and some of them have been cancelled due to engine repairs. Maybe the only thing worth buying in her was her galley crew - but crews are hired, and slaves are sold. Her food was excellent. The engines were the main reason why she was to be replaced, they were finished. Oh yes, there are many ships I have left out from the list I made. I took ships that should have a few years of use left in them, and with the same idea that NORTHERN EXPEDITION. Meaning - car deck - day and night passenger role - some cabins - and last but not least I had the price information of sale price. All in all 105 ferries were sold for further trading and 46 sold for scrap, so a whole lot of others could have been the replacement. Not to mention that there are a lot of ships that are always available for sale, but nobody wants to buy, like the poor PANTOKRATOR... Also all pure dayferries, like the ÅLANDSFÄRJAN were all left out. As for the idea of creating a cruise-like experience on a ferry - Hurtigruten in Norway must be the best in the world. It is still run with subsidies, because the day to day service and the freight they carry is too valuable for some of the remote areas they serve. If you do not know of them, check their website www.hurtigruten.com/I do think that it might cause voices if let us say BC-Ferries would say: "We now have a way were we can meet all requirements, give better service and so on. We will go ferry-cruising. Just give us some 150 MEUR to build one decent cruise-ferry..." But, as the idea has worked in other places, why not there. As for the cruise ferries being a success. Yes and no. After the tax-free was abandoned in most of Europe due to European Unions decision, this has resulted in the European ferry fleet in most areas to go closer to pure transport, and aging. It has also lead to much more expensive travel - basically the winner was the airline-industry. The remaining areas with taxfree sales within the EU were explained by cobblehillian, but taxfree can also be sold on routes that include a port outside the EU. In reality this means Norway, Iceland or Russia in Northern Europe. Color Line, Fjord Line and Stena Line handle Norway, Smyril Line handles Iceland and now there is also a ferry service linking Helsinki with St Petersburg, and Helsinki, Tallinn, Mariehamn and Stockholm with a Russian company, St Peter Line, operating with ex. Viking and Silja vessels. As an example of what the days were before the abolishment of tax-free and after it, the routes between the city of Vaasa in Finland and Umeå, Sundsvall and others in Sweden carried about 1 million passengers a year with about 3 cruise ferries. The biggest ever was the SILJA FESTIVAL, the twin sister of the COLOR FESTIVAL. Nowadays the ship RG I is the only one on the route, carrying about 70 000 passengers a year, and it would not survive without the freight. Here is the website of the current, remaining operation. www.rgline.com/?lang=enAnd finally - a bad idea: In fact - I believe there is one flaw in the BC-Ferries and Alaska Marine Highway System. If there would be no Jones Act and so on, there could be a Hurtigruten-style real cruise-ferry-ro-ro operation all in one, combining the area between Seattle and Alaska, giving local communities life-line services and tourists and locals alike the trip of a lifetime - as I have been told that scenery does not loose much to what you see onboard Hurtigruten. Also, as Hurtigruten also takes local passengers, and are not cruise ships that tend to shield off the passengers seeing the reality, only the illusion, this could have a true potential to be a real money maker. That requires among other things gambling onboard. But there are a few problems, and I list only the ones that my narrow mind can see from this side of the Pond. Remember that my only visits to the US and Canada have been to the East Coast. I know practically nothing about the people, the country, the legislation... 1. Somebody with a vision and the required social network. 2. Political obstacles, namely Jones Act and possibly other, even Canadian political obstacles? 3. Investment. If the ships were to be built locally in the US or Canada I believe the price tag would be horrible. After all, it is a huge investment and would need a series of similar ships to provide decent communications. Even after having the ships built in Asia we talk of a price tags of hundreds of millions - and it is almost irrelevant what currency we think about - it is still so much! 4. Crewing... That could be a serious issue, as it will require a compromise.
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Post by Starsteward on Oct 3, 2011 9:31:07 GMT -8
I greatly appreciate the latest submissions by cobblehillian and timo, who continue to provide excellent background material any group could well use in any exercise undertaken to come up with a new marketing master plan for the mid and north B.C. Coast. The discounts offered by Viking Line is interesting and appears to be a positive incentive to maintain current users and attract new users. As for the Hurtigruten fleet, they are definitely a stately lot aren't they? Very smart looking fleet, the only drawback to use out here would be the very limited car space on each ship. That said, Hurtigruten's cruise philosophy is very interesting and shows that there is a market and done properly can be maintained in a profitable manner. The notion that timo puts forward about a service that would include a run from the U.S. to B.C. and onward to Alaska is intriguing to say the least, however the maze of bureaucracy that would have to be overcome would test the human resolve of anyone wanting to steward that plan to fruition. However, there might just be a glimpse of a chance with a B.C. operated service between the U.S., namely Washington State and the State of Alaska as both states have serious financial/budget concerns that are posing operational problems for their respective fleets going forward. Maybe we could convince the American legislators in both Washington State and Alaska that we could develop, operate, and maintain a first class marine transportation model between the three jurisdictions, thus alleviating some financial pressures on the operating budgets of the two American jurisdictions in question.
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Post by alaskanmohican on Oct 3, 2011 19:29:45 GMT -8
Regarding AMHS, there are few obstacles to offering a "cruise ferry" service, namely AMHS has to be careful what the ferries are used for. Since the Marine Highway is state run, they are not allowed to venture into certain markets. The cruise market in particular they are not allowed into, it is felt that being state owned this would give the Marine Highway an unfair advantage over a private company. Whether that is true or not, well that is the debate.
A little history; this restriction was in place from the beginning as a compromise to get people to vote to establish the Marine Highway system back in the late 50's. AMHS was created by vote of the people, there were those against it's creation, even in southeast Alaska. Those against it were not against the connection that the service would provide, they were largely against a government run system, feeling that this service should be the domain of private enterprise. At this time Canadian Pacific was still serving Alaska and lets not forget that what became AMHS actually began life as a private enterprise that the Territory took over when the owner wanted to stop. Alaska had been served by the private sector since it became a Territory, so not everyone was convinced in the government taking this service over. So AMHS was created with the understanding that it would not operate beyond it's original bounds.
Regarding the Jones Act, it is outdated and makes things difficult for operators, but it does provide some benefits, namely it is meant to ensure certain working conditions for crew. So it is not all bad, but does stand in need of some revision, to say the least.
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timo
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Post by timo on Jan 25, 2012 3:26:36 GMT -8
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Jan 28, 2012 3:30:12 GMT -8
www.marinelink.com/news/viking-orders-energy342266.aspx Viking Ferry Orders ABB Energy SystemABB to provide energy management system for new Viking Line ferry. Smart energy tool to provide substantial fuel savings for environmentally friendly cruise ferry, helping it reach a target of zero marine emissions.ABB, a power and automation technology group, has won an order to provide an energy management system for one of the world’s most environmentallyfriendly cruise ferries, which is due to be delivered to Viking Line in 2013. The ship is being built in Finland at the STX Yard in Turku. The new cruise ferry, a 214 meter vessel with a top speed of 22 knots, will have the capacity to carry 2,800 passengers and will serve the route connecting Turku, Finland and Stockholm, Sweden. In line with Viking Line’s environmental commitments, the new generation ferry will use liquefied natural gas as its fuel, which will be a first for a passenger vessel of this size. Through efficient use of this fuel, the ship will have extremely low emissions and virtually zero marine emissions. Viking Line chose ABB’s energy management system for marine applications software - EMMA, which is a part of ABB’s marine automation and control offering, to help manage energy-related processes, practices and decisions on the new ferry, to use fuel efficiently from the very first day of operation. EMMA is based on ABB’s field-proven process automation software for energy management, which has been deployed to more than 60 process industry customers. ABB’s scope of supply to Viking Line includes EMMA software, which compares and analyzes the historical and current operational data of the vessel, then calculates and advises on areas for improvement with easy-to-understand displays. It also includes an extended energy management tool that models energy consumption and calculates optimal operating conditions, so that ships can perform at the highest possible fuel and energy efficiency. ABB’s Process Automation division delivers industry specific solutions and services for industrial automation and plant electrification. These solutions help customers meet their critical business needs in the areas of energy efficiency, operational profitability, capital productivity, risk management, and global responsibility. Available industry specific solutions include process control, instrumentation, analytics, safety, plant optimization, telecommunications, energy management and power distribution.
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timo
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Post by timo on Feb 29, 2012 2:42:25 GMT -8
The ships name has been published. She is to break the traditions: VIKING GRACE. The keel-laying ceremony is to be in March, and delivery before January 13th, 2013.
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timo
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Post by timo on Feb 29, 2012 10:13:11 GMT -8
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timo
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Post by timo on Aug 22, 2012 4:26:18 GMT -8
A very nice video of the VIKING GRACE can be found on the link below. It is a commercial form Wärtsilä. Looks quite nice in this.
She is to start service in January.
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timo
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Post by timo on Nov 8, 2012 11:27:39 GMT -8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2012 20:50:00 GMT -8
This is a beautiful ferry. I have been following her progress for quite sometime now and I am very impressed.
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timo
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Post by timo on Dec 2, 2012 13:34:52 GMT -8
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timo
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Post by timo on Jan 10, 2013 12:16:30 GMT -8
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timo
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Post by timo on Jan 18, 2013 6:15:53 GMT -8
Was onboard on the first scheduled voyage of the Viking Grace. She is surely a vessel that is must to try - she is really that different. Here my pictures and comments. sites.google.com/site/vikinggraceinauguralsailing/============= moderator edit to add URL tags
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