Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 19:58:50 GMT -8
Re: cuts to the senior discounts
Honestly, I couldn't care less - it was going to happen at some point. I find it outrageous that seniors currently have free travel 4/7 days of the week, while students between 12-18 have zero discount. In most other transportation systems, students are entitled to some kind of discount, which is often equivalent or greater what people of age 65 and over are granted.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 19, 2013 20:15:02 GMT -8
Re: cuts to the senior discounts Honestly, I couldn't care less - it was going to happen at some point. I find it outrageous that seniors currently have free travel 4/7 days of the week, while students between 12-18 have zero discount. In most other transportation systems, students are entitled to some kind of discount, which is often equivalent or greater what people of age 65 and over are granted. Wow, another person with same view towards senior discounts. I am ok with BC Ferries giving a 50% discount is ok because they still get some discount.
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 19, 2013 20:25:09 GMT -8
With respect to loss of hours - how long notice does BCFS have to give on reductions to avoid a crew being called? I seem to recall when there were first reductions on the major routes, notably Rte 2 a few years ago, a crew still showed up to work due to the collective agreement. The ship just did not sail. Wondering if that may happen again? As far as I know, the regular crew members will still have to hang around, since they would be on Salary. However, the Casual Employees would all likely be sent home since they're paid hourly.
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Post by Mike C on Nov 19, 2013 21:16:12 GMT -8
Nice tweet from @bcferrys...
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mrdot
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Mr. DOT
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Post by mrdot on Nov 19, 2013 21:22:23 GMT -8
:)It may surprise my student friend, but I fully agree, we needed help when we were in my student years, and when we were struggling with a yound family, much more than now in my senior years, and many of my age are relitively well off, and can afford full fare, however there are some among our seniors group that do require assistance and if in need should be given some consideration, that being said, fairness would have been more been more help when we were young! may we become a kinder gov't to those in genune need! mrdot.
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 19, 2013 21:59:10 GMT -8
BCFMWU President Chris Abbott will be reporting live on CBC radio at 07:35-ish tomorrow morning.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 20, 2013 7:16:20 GMT -8
BCFMWU President Chris Abbott will be reporting live on CBC radio at 07:35-ish tomorrow morning. For those wondering, this will be on the CBC-1 "Early Edition" program from Vancouver's station. (most BC regions have their own morning show, so this Abbott interview will likely be accessed by internet after-the-fact by those of us who are interested. (I'm lucky: I can hear both CBC-1 Victoria and CBC-1 Vancouver from where I live)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 20, 2013 8:05:32 GMT -8
CBC Radio news this morning included a comment on the free-travel to current & retired ferry workers.
Mike Corrigan stated that it doesn't cost the company anything, because the ships run anyways, so an extra few freebies onboard doesn't increase the cost of the trip.
However, the main hidden cost is the lost revenue. ie. that if those free-pass people had paid, then the ferry revenue would be higher, and this would help BC Ferries financially. ....and this would help to keep fare-prices down for us paying travelers.
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Again, in analyzing this perk, there are 2 separate issues:
1) The fact that no revenue is collected by BCFS from those travelers. - this is lost revenue to the ferry company, that the regular travelers have to make up for.
2) The ferry workers using this perk will pay some tax on the benefit. - As I noted yesterday, if I give you $100 and then ask you to pay $30 to the Government, you are richer by $70.
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I don't see this issue changing in the near term. Under the current structure, the Province can't tell the ferry company what to include in the employee collective agreement.
However, the Province could tell BC Ferries that because there is so much free travel given out by the company, that the Province will decrease the ferry subsidy by a certain amount.
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[late edit: see later posts from others in this thread for some key factors & reasonings that I didn't consider when I wrote this post. ie. that this travel is likely discretionary and would decrease if a paid-fare was required, and that the perk is an employee benefit and so it's an earned item, not a free item, and that it's likely an important benefit to attract and retain employees, especially in remote locations, otherwise we wouldn't have enought workers for those routes]
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
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Post by Koastal Karl on Nov 20, 2013 8:15:50 GMT -8
jeez I would of thought our forum would keep the ferries in business the amount of times we ride the ferries! Me alone I have travelled a lot!
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
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Post by Nick on Nov 20, 2013 8:16:13 GMT -8
CBC Radio news this morning included a comment on the free-travel to current & retired ferry workers. Mike Corrigan stated that it doesn't cost the company anything, because the ships run anyways, so an extra few freebies onboard doesn't increase the cost of the trip. However, the main hidden cost is the lost revenue. ie. that if those free-pass people had paid, then the ferry revenue would be higher, and this would help BC Ferries financially. ....and this would help to keep fare-prices down for us paying travelers. ------------------ Again, in analyzing this perk, there are 2 separate issues: 1) The fact that no revenue is collected by BCFS from those travelers. - this is lost revenue to the ferry company, that the regular travelers have to make up for. 2) The ferry workers using this perk will pay some tax on the benefit. - As I noted yesterday, if I give you $100 and then ask you to pay $30 to the Government, you are richer by $70. ---------------- I don't see this issue changing in the near term. Under the current structure, the Province can't tell the ferry company what to include in the employee collective agreement. However, the Province could tell BC Ferries that because there is so much free travel given out by the company, that the Province will decrease the ferry subsidy by a certain amount. Bear in mind that a lot of the employee trips are discretionary, especially for employees on VI or the lower mainlaind. Much of their travel would be cut back or eliminated if it wasn't free/discounted.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 20, 2013 8:52:38 GMT -8
Bear in mind that a lot of the employee trips are discretionary, especially for employees on VI or the lower mainlaind. Much of their travel would be cut back or eliminated if it wasn't free/discounted. Good point. I hadn't thought of that one. So the lost revenue isn't likely to be fully realized as real revenue, because employees wouldn't travel as much if they had to pay full or partial. --------- I also thought a bit more about this issue, and it is an employee benefit, in terms of it being part of the compensation to an employee in exchange for the employee's work. So in that sense, it isn't "free", it's earned. Now, the question then is whether this earned benefit is excessive, or reasonable. Collective bargaining usually sorts that out, meaning that it's reasonable because both sides agreed to it. However, in bargaining, some things are thrown in or given up, as part of the overall process of give and take, and so this travel perk likely can't be looked at in isolation. Once piece missing in this commentary is the dollar amounts in question. ie. how well used is this benefit, and what is the total value of it for an average employee. I'm not sure BC Ferries knows, because of their poor information systems. Maybe the total value of the benefit used by the employees is small, maybe it is moderate, or maybe it is excessive. Who knows?
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 20, 2013 8:53:16 GMT -8
If that employee benefit was eliminated would that make it more difficult for BCFS to recruit employees, particularly those serving on more isolated routes like say the Haida Gwaii inter-island route (the Kwuna)? I suspect that it would have an impact.
We had a member of this forum who was living on an island and working for BCFS on a ferry serving that island. Would he/she be less inclined to want to return to that island if he/she had to pay full fare every time he/she wanted to go to or from the island?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 20, 2013 9:39:27 GMT -8
One of the things I appreciate about this forum, is the balance of opinions and perspectives on things. Regarding this ferry service-cut story and the related issues, I've been enjoying the different reactions and discussion.
- Things like the discussion re employee travel-passes show that the various contributions from various members add-up to a good balanced overall analysis of the issue.
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Post by Mike C on Nov 20, 2013 12:09:20 GMT -8
Re: cuts to the senior discounts Honestly, I couldn't care less - it was going to happen at some point. I find it outrageous that seniors currently have free travel 4/7 days of the week, while students between 12-18 have zero discount. In most other transportation systems, students are entitled to some kind of discount, which is often equivalent or greater what people of age 65 and over are granted. Good point. As a student, I can say that the cost of ferry travel stops me from making discretionary trips approximately once a year, usually trips with a vehicle. I simply cannot afford the cost of driving on and off the ferry to visit my family in the Comox Valley. This doesn't bother me a great deal, because these aren't "must-do" trips, but it would have been nice. As a high-school student, I paid $42 p/ month (since increased) for a 3-zone month pass, which was about 66% off the adult fare. I now pay $32 a month for a mandatory transit pass in post-secondary, which is a significant discount. This makes it possible for me to utilize public transit to travel the distance from North Delta to Vancouver to get to school every day. If I lived on an island, and had to commute by ferry, post secondary education would simply not be possible from an affordability standpoint. Anyways, it was extroardinary that the seniors benefits made it this far - it seemed to slip under the radar every time there was a discussion about fares. Julien makes the point that seniors are, in most transportation systems, granted the same level of benefit as a student, which I think makes total sense.
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Nov 20, 2013 14:17:01 GMT -8
I have driven over 4 times this year! One was just to the Gulf Islands and the rest were to Vancouver? I will be driving over to Vancouver again at the end of the month for the weekend! I can't count how much I have spent on the ferries this year! But I know it is a lot!
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 20, 2013 15:43:20 GMT -8
Re: cuts to the senior discounts Honestly, I couldn't care less - it was going to happen at some point. I find it outrageous that seniors currently have free travel 4/7 days of the week, while students between 12-18 have zero discount. In most other transportation systems, students are entitled to some kind of discount, which is often equivalent or greater what people of age 65 and over are granted. There you go again, is doesn't effect me therefore "I couldn't care less". Be a little more careful about your choice of words. It is quite possible to say in a nicer way that the seniors' discount is unfair to others who have at least as much of a need for discounted fares as seniors do. I suspect that the change in the seniors discount will lead yet again to decreased patronage of the ferries, and decreased revenue for on board services (e.g. cafeterias, gift shops, etc.) and further losses for tourism businesses in places like the Gulf Islands. The change in the Seniors' discount, however, is easier to accept that people on islands like Texada being cut off after 6:00 PM, or Haida Gwaii having service slashed by 35 percent.
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 20, 2013 17:19:54 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 21, 2013 19:16:29 GMT -8
Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Andrew Kurjata at CBC Radio - Daybreak North, in Prince George...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 22:52:07 GMT -8
There you go again, is doesn't effect me therefore "I couldn't care less". Be a little more careful about your choice of words. It is quite possible to say in a nicer way that the seniors' discount is unfair to others who have at least as much of a need for discounted fares as seniors do. I suspect that the change in the seniors discount will lead yet again to decreased patronage of the ferries, and decreased revenue for on board services (e.g. cafeterias, gift shops, etc.) and further losses for tourism businesses in places like the Gulf Islands. Perhaps you're right, but I don't think anyone is hurt as a result of my comments. The interesting, and rather annoying thing about the seniors is that they are the only ones sheltered from yearly fare increases. There are many other groups in our population out there that make just as little and sometimes less as seniors, yet they are treated as adults. If anything, they should be slightly reducing the seniors discount and implementing a modest student discount. In addition, the TAP forms (which grant free travel for trips regarding medical appointments) aren't being touched in these cuts, either. This is definitely not the ideal way to go for BCFS, but I know that BC Seniors are by far not the only group that frequent the system. I'm with MileagePhoto about this slipping under the radar every time an increase rolls around, and it was getting extreme that they were the only ones sheltered from increases. As a student, I got a discount until I was 11 years old. I don't suspect my age group will be getting anything from the government when we are seniors, either.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 22, 2013 8:04:38 GMT -8
Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Andrew Kurjata at CBC Radio - Daybreak North, in Prince George... Good words. If I were an outsider wondering about the comparison of Francois Lake ferry to Aliford Bay ferry, the dialogue might go something like this: Outsider: "So I'm trying to decide whether to relocate my family to the south-side of Francois Lake, or to Sandspit. Both have a ferry where myself and the kids need to ride it each day to do work & school and for us to do weekly shopping and appointments." BCer: "Both are nice places,and both have ferries. However, there are a couple of important points for you to consider." Outsider: "You mean the climate and the economy?" BCer: "No, those are important, but there are 2 more items that are even more important." Outsider: "Sounds important, please tell me more." BCer: "Well, one of the ferries finishes its day late at night (and starts again early the next morning), but the other ferry finishes in early evening (really, late afternoon). So one ferry has a much longer service-day than the other." Outsider: "Oh, I know which one I like better. I want to live where the ferry starts early and ends late." BCer: "There's one more issue. One of the ferries is free, and the other one is very expensive. These are 2 extremes." Outsider: " Oh no, that's making my relocation decision more difficult. Now I have a tough decision to make. Do I want the free ferry that has a shorter service day, or an expensive ferry that has a long service day. A really tough decision for me and my family to make." BCer: "Ummmmmm. How do I explain this to you? I'm really sorry, but you've misunderstood me." Outsider: "What do you mean?" BCer: "Well, you know the ferry that's really expensive to ride?" Outsider: "Yeah, what about that one?" BCer: " Well, that really expensive ferry is also the one that has the short service day." Outsider: "Say what? ??" BCer: "And the ferry that's free.....well that's the one with the longer service day." Outsider: "Are you on crack?" BCer: "No, things in BC are green, not white." Outsider: " So, you're telling me that the ferry that has the short service day is also the expensive one? That's the stupidest thing that I've ever heard." BCer: "Yup, and the free ferry has the long service day." Outsider: "Where I come from, we have a special word for that. Rediculas !!! " ================
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 22, 2013 19:10:42 GMT -8
The BCFS Fiscal-2014 2nd quarter "Management's Discussion & Analysis" report is an official public documents report, posted on www.sedar.com. Here's what the report (dated Nov.21, 2013) had to say about the Provincial Government's recent announcement: The above mention of the Seniors' Discount being reduced to 50% caught my eye. In our recent discussions on this thread, I was assuming that it was 100% gone. I should have paid more attention to the fine detail, earlier. - A 50% discount is still a meaningful savings to a passenger.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 10:11:03 GMT -8
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Post by Scott on Nov 24, 2013 14:51:16 GMT -8
Sounds like BC Ferries will be getting an earful when they're in Powell River next week. In some ways, I feel sorry for the BC Ferries people that will be up there... really it's not their decision that cutbacks are coming - I'm pretty sure they would have preferred a bigger subsidy and keep things the way they are. It would be nice if the transportation minister was at all these "consultations", but I kind of doubt that will happen. To me it seems like the decisions have been made, they've looked at it in enough detail to know what sailings they're going to cut, so what's going to change? I wish they wouldn't be so defeatist about this whole reduction in traffic over these past years. Instead of cutting these poorly utilized sailings, why not take measures to encourage people to travel more... cut the fares for the late night sailings... at least try something before going and cutting them altogether. Once they're gone, it'll take a long time and a fight to ever get them back. www.news1130.com/2013/11/24/business-owner-angry-over-reduced-bc-ferries-routes/?cid=dlvr.it- John H
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Nov 24, 2013 19:15:44 GMT -8
I wish News1130 would get their facts straight. The service cuts were not announced by BC Ferries...
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Post by compdude787 on Nov 24, 2013 21:58:14 GMT -8
I wish News1130 would get their facts straight. The service cuts were not announced by BC Ferries... It seems that the news media has a recurring problem with reporting ferry-related stuff. Don't worry, they will get their facts straight when pigs fly...
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