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Post by Mike C on Nov 24, 2013 22:06:56 GMT -8
I just thought of another consequence of the service cuts of evening sailings, which will significantly affect us ferry photographers. We will no longer be able to get photos of ferries underway at sunset or dusk, especially in June where the days are the longest. That will really be a shame, because sunrise and sunset produce some awesome photos. I don't see how this is true, or relevant? Sunrises and sunsets vary throughout the year, so in the off-season sunset photos are still possible. Mundane discussion point anyway, ferries don't exist for my hobbies' advantage.
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SolDuc
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SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
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Post by SolDuc on Nov 24, 2013 22:12:26 GMT -8
Don't worry, they will get their facts straight when pigs fly... If you were French you'd say "when chicken have teeth". Fun fact of the day...
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Post by compdude787 on Nov 24, 2013 23:06:54 GMT -8
I just thought of another consequence of the service cuts of evening sailings, which will affect us ferry photographers. During June when the days are the longest, we won't be able to get photos of ferries underway at sunset or dusk. Is this your attempt at wry humor, or did you actually think this was an intelligent angle to the discussion of service cuts that affect thousands of people? This post adds absolutely nothing to this thread. Fine then, I've deleted the post.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 25, 2013 16:29:57 GMT -8
The webpage for the Ferry Advisory Council Chairs has an article and some data on the service cuts. from HERE========================== For those that like the numbers analysis, the FAC Chairs webpage also has this article HERE
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 25, 2013 22:13:41 GMT -8
There has been a lot of response to these cutbacks regarding the elimination of early and late sailings on many of the lifeline routes, as well as debate about the curtailment of seniors' discounts, but I haven't seen much on the elimination of the summertime route 40 service. I suspect this will have a rather significant effect on tourist related businesses all the way from Bella Coola to Williams Lake, along Highway 20.
According to BC Ferries' traffic statistics, the average vehicle load for route 40 is about 30% of capacity. After Port Hardy, Bella Coola has the second highest traffic on the route, so clearly the lion's share of travellers are going from Port Hardy through to Bella Coola. With Klemtu and Bella Bella continuing to be served by the route ten vessel, BC Ferries can probably make a convincing argument that any local traffic between Bella Bella, Shearwater, Ocean Falls, and Bella Coola can be served by the sixteen car Nimpkish. The vehicle and passenger counts for Ocean Falls and Shearwater are negligible.
However, the Nimpkish cannot begin to serve the tourist trade that route 40 was set up to generate. If the Queen of Chilliwack is, on average, 30% full when it arrives at or leaves Bella Coola, that represents 34 AEQ. I doubt very much that BC Ferries is going to be increasing the numbers of sailings that the 'Chilliwack has done previously, so we are probably looking at a severe drop in capacity. As well, no one in their right mind would expect tourists to spend over nine hours on the Nimpkish, a boat with absolutely no amenities, on a trip between Bella Bella and Bella Coola.
BC Ferries, and Christy Clark, can give us all the numbers regarding how much is going to be saved from these cuts... if you're talking about the company's bottom line, or the government's subsidy. What they haven't figured out, and what they don't seem to give a flying rat's ass about, is the damage these cuts are going to do to local economies. As has been pointed out by another poster, BC Ferries put Coast Ferries out of business when they started route 40. They have generated an expectation of tourist traffic for businesses on the central coast, and along Highway 20- as well as a level of service for locals. Now they've eliminated that, and replaced it with a ridiculously unsuitable vessel.
Collateral damage from a poorly thought out fixation on the bottom line, that in the end will benefit no one.
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SolDuc
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West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
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Post by SolDuc on Nov 25, 2013 22:57:55 GMT -8
Don't worry, they will get their facts straight when pigs fly... If you were French you'd say "when chicken have teeth". Fun fact of the day... Late second reply to this: in ferry fan talk, you'd say "when WSF will provide adequate capacity on the Bremerton run" OR "When WSF food will be good".
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 25, 2013 22:58:47 GMT -8
There has been a lot of response to these cutbacks regarding the elimination of early and late sailings on many of the lifeline routes, as well as debate about the curtailment of seniors' discounts, but I haven't seen much on the elimination of the summertime route 40 service. I suspect this will have a rather significant effect on tourist related businesses all the way from Bella Coola to Williams Lake, along Highway 20.
According to BC Ferries' traffic statistics, the average vehicle load for route 40 is about 30% of capacity. After Port Hardy, Bella Coola has the second highest traffic on the route, so clearly the lion's share of travellers are going from Port Hardy through to Bella Coola. With Klemtu and Bella Bella continuing to be served by the route ten vessel, BC Ferries can probably make a convincing argument that any local traffic between Bella Bella, Shearwater, Ocean Falls, and Bella Coola can be served by the sixteen car Nimpkish. The vehicle and passenger counts for Ocean Falls and Shearwater are negligible.
However, the Nimpkish cannot begin to serve the tourist trade that route 40 was set up to generate. If the Queen of Chilliwack is, on average, 30% full when it arrives at or leaves Bella Coola, that represents 34 AEQ. I doubt very much that BC Ferries is going to be increasing the numbers of sailings that the 'Chilliwack has done previously, so we are probably looking at a severe drop in capacity. As well, no one in their right mind would expect tourists to spend over nine hours on the Nimpkish, a boat with absolutely no amenities, on a trip between Bella Bella and Bella Coola.
BC Ferries, and Christy Clark, can give us all the numbers regarding how much is going to be saved from these cuts... if you're talking about the company's bottom line, or the government's subsidy. What they haven't figured out, and what they don't seem to give a flying rat's ass about, is the damage these cuts are going to do to local economies. As has been pointed out by another poster, BC Ferries put Coast Ferries out of business when they started route 40. They have generated an expectation of tourist traffic for businesses on the central coast, and along Highway 20- as well as a level of service for locals. Now they've eliminated that, and replaced it with a ridiculously unsuitable vessel.
Collateral damage from a poorly thought out fixation on the bottom line, that in the end will benefit no one. The damage is being done in NDP held ridings up & down the coast. I think the damage very deliberate; inflicted on people & businesses located in these places by Christie & Co.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 25, 2013 23:02:57 GMT -8
However, the Nimpkish cannot begin to serve the tourist trade that route 40 was set up to generate. If the Queen of Chilliwack is, on average, 30% full when it arrives at or leaves Bella Coola, that represents 34 AEQ. I doubt very much that BC Ferries is going to be increasing the numbers of sailings that the ' Chilliwack has done previously, so we are probably looking at a severe drop in capacity. As well, no one in their right mind would expect tourists to spend over nine hours on the Nimpkish, a boat with absolutely no amenities, on a trip between Bella Bella and Bella Coola. I agree with Neil that it's the Port Hardy - Bella Coola day cruise which will be missed the most, regarding the demise of Route-40. Both for tourists (mainly Europeans who took their rented motorhomes on board) and by the tourism operators all through the Bella Coola valley and across the Chilcotin plateau. I've taken 4 such day cruises on Route-40 over the years, and that day trip always seemed to be the flagship-leg of Route-40 and always seemed to be well utilized. It is impossible for BC Ferries to replace that experience with Nimpkish. I think that the only use for Nimpkish sailing to Bella Coola is for anyone who's leaving Bella Bella or Klemtu and wants to head to the BC Interior. But even that can be done more comfortably by taking the inside-passage ship up to Prince Rupert and then driving across Hwy-16 into central BC. Nimpkish will see some traffic between Bella Coola and Ocean Falls, but only a small amount for those people from Ocean Falls (not too many of them) who want to access the rest of BC through the gateway port of Bella Coola. Perhaps the only reason for Nimpkish to serve Bella Coola is because she's home-ported there.
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Post by compdude787 on Nov 26, 2013 8:16:10 GMT -8
If you were French you'd say "when chicken have teeth". Fun fact of the day... Late second reply to this: in ferry fan talk, you'd say "when WSF will provide adequate capacity on the Bremerton run" OR "When WSF food will be good". Or "when BCF will stop increasing their fares."
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Post by compdude787 on Nov 26, 2013 8:27:42 GMT -8
There has been a lot of response to these cutbacks regarding the elimination of early and late sailings on many of the lifeline routes, as well as debate about the curtailment of seniors' discounts, but I haven't seen much on the elimination of the summertime route 40 service. I suspect this will have a rather significant effect on tourist related businesses all the way from Bella Coola to Williams Lake, along Highway 20.
According to BC Ferries' traffic statistics, the average vehicle load for route 40 is about 30% of capacity. After Port Hardy, Bella Coola has the second highest traffic on the route, so clearly the lion's share of travellers are going from Port Hardy through to Bella Coola. With Klemtu and Bella Bella continuing to be served by the route ten vessel, BC Ferries can probably make a convincing argument that any local traffic between Bella Bella, Shearwater, Ocean Falls, and Bella Coola can be served by the sixteen car Nimpkish. The vehicle and passenger counts for Ocean Falls and Shearwater are negligible.
However, the Nimpkish cannot begin to serve the tourist trade that route 40 was set up to generate. If the Queen of Chilliwack is, on average, 30% full when it arrives at or leaves Bella Coola, that represents 34 AEQ. I doubt very much that BC Ferries is going to be increasing the numbers of sailings that the 'Chilliwack has done previously, so we are probably looking at a severe drop in capacity. As well, no one in their right mind would expect tourists to spend over nine hours on the Nimpkish, a boat with absolutely no amenities, on a trip between Bella Bella and Bella Coola.
BC Ferries, and Christy Clark, can give us all the numbers regarding how much is going to be saved from these cuts... if you're talking about the company's bottom line, or the government's subsidy. What they haven't figured out, and what they don't seem to give a flying rat's ass about, is the damage these cuts are going to do to local economies. As has been pointed out by another poster, BC Ferries put Coast Ferries out of business when they started route 40. They have generated an expectation of tourist traffic for businesses on the central coast, and along Highway 20- as well as a level of service for locals. Now they've eliminated that, and replaced it with a ridiculously unsuitable vessel.
Collateral damage from a poorly thought out fixation on the bottom line, that in the end will benefit no one. The damage is being done in NDP held ridings up & down the coast. I think the damage very deliberate; inflicted on people & businesses located in these places by Christie & Co. This is all the result of stupid politics. You'd think with a "privatized" ferry system, politics wouldn't have influence in decisions, but no...that doesn't seem to be the case. This also happens a lot with highways, and choosing which ones get money for improvements and which ones don't.
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Post by Curtis on Nov 26, 2013 18:15:16 GMT -8
I'm currently at the Consultation tonight in Powell River. To say the response is less than overwhelming would be an understatement. At current, the venue at the Town Centre Hotel is currently filled to capacity (350) with countless more people outside waiting to get in.
Many youth sport teams are in attendance wearing their uniforms to send a message about cutting weekend sailings.
I managed to find my way in and have been listening to the question period. Questions range from the impact on local sport teams and business, the cost of Inland Ferries or having Route 17 berthed in Powell River. Every question is immediately followed by a round of applause.
I'd say more but there's still plenty more to go.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 26, 2013 18:32:27 GMT -8
I'm currently at the Consultation tonight in Powell River. To say the response is less than overwhelming would be an understatement. At current, the venue at the Town Centre Hotel is currently filled to capacity (350) with countless more people outside waiting to get in. You can listen live, right now LISTEN HERE
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 26, 2013 19:24:55 GMT -8
I was planning on going to the meeting here on Hornby tomorrow evening, but I'm leaning toward not doing so. This whole exercise is a cynical, pointless, condescending sop to the peasants, to let them vent for a bit. BC Ferries and the Liberal government have made their decisions, and they're not interested in what anyone has to say.
If I want to get extremely annoyed and have my evening spoiled, I might go. But I already know that coastal communities are outraged, and I'm not sure I want to hear the smug rationalizing of BC Ferries spokestypes who are going through the motions of a sham consultation.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 27, 2013 12:11:02 GMT -8
A quote from a news story (Powell River Peak) regarding the Nov.25th meeting on Texada Island: from HERERegarding the David Hendry quote above, from what I've seen there has been a tentative new schedule created, but it was done by the Province of BC, not BC Ferries. - On the BC Ferries website, the schedules only say "changes to be determined" =----------------------- One more thing: - for the few minutes that I listened last evening to the Powell River meeting, the confusion between Government and Ferry-Operator was an issue.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 28, 2013 17:44:34 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 7, 2013 14:04:23 GMT -8
Vancouver Sun article on the impact of the cancellation of Route-40: from HERE
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 9, 2013 20:58:50 GMT -8
I watched some of the Quadra Island meeting tonight, on the live internet feed that a Powell River group had set up.
The community response from all the various communities, so far, has been one of great numbers of people gathering and lots of people taking time to explain how the cuts will impact their businesses and communities. It seems to be a continuing movement of the people in the communities showing up and speaking out.
The Powell River group (the "Fiscal Fairness" group) seems to be taking a lead in publicizing these meetings and in providing internet streaming opportunities to view the meetings.
Many of the upcoming meetings have already been re-booked into larger venues. ie. from a small hotel meeting room to a community hall.
What the outcome will be from all this community effort, I do not know. But it's interesting to see how communities have responded to these meeting opportunities.
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Post by Mike C on Dec 10, 2013 12:37:05 GMT -8
I watched some of the Quadra Island meeting tonight, on the live internet feed that a Powell River group had set up. The community response from all the various communities, so far, has been one of great numbers of people gathering and lots of people taking time to explain how the cuts will impact their businesses and communities. It seems to be a continuing movement of the people in the communities showing up and speaking out. The Powell River group (the "Fiscal Fairness" group) seems to be taking a lead in publicizing these meetings and in providing internet streaming opportunities to view the meetings. Many of the upcoming meetings have already been re-booked into larger venues. ie. from a small hotel meeting room to a community hall. What the outcome will be from all this community effort, I do not know. But it's interesting to see how communities have responded to these meeting opportunities. I am really happy to see residents participating in this so-called "consultation" process, rather than staying at home and being skeptical. The numbers will, at the very least, send a message to those in positions of authority. Participating in the process is important, no matter the outcome. Also, kudos to the 'Fiscal Fairness' group out of PR for making this publicly accessible. It seems to me that the residents and stakeholders are doing all the right things to send a message. It's incredibly difficult to be reasonable with individuals who are executing mislead ideology at the expense of livelihoods, and are more or less talking-at-them rather than with-them, but good work nonetheless. Keep filling the community halls.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 11, 2013 9:34:31 GMT -8
A few items from the Gabriola Island meeting, on December 10, 2013. Here's the backdrop, with a nice ferry sign: "Our Island, Our Highways" ---------------- A Gabriola film company produced a short video that was shown at the start of the meeting. - the theme of the film was various islanders explaining that "I live here" and "This is my island" and how the ferry cuts would impact their lives.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 11, 2013 17:55:34 GMT -8
Here is the video produced by Gabriola Islanders, and shown to the consultation group, yesterday. ------------------ And if you go to their webpage, you'll enjoy their fine home-page header graphic. HERE
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 11, 2013 21:20:23 GMT -8
Is there actually the possibility of some of the cuts being adjusted? Here's a ray of hope mentioned in THIS Gulf Islands Driftwood story excerpt: Under the recently announced proposed cuts, the last sailing from Crofton would have been 6:55pm mid-week, and 8:00pm weekends. This seemingly small adjustment might be a meaningful difference to SSIslanders who need to attend late afternoon & early evening appointments on Vancouver Island.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 11, 2013 23:02:49 GMT -8
Couple of thoughts on this ongoing story which affects so many communities, easy to write off by urbanites and media pundits like the Vancouver Sun's Vaughn Palmer, because those communities are so small in the greater scheme of things.
BC Ferries and the provincial Liberals put a lot of stock in vehicle capacity utilization as a criteria for eliminating service. We've heard recently from businesses and tourism operators on the central coast and along highway 20 just how much the elimination of route 40 will mean to them. As well, today I read how even certain health care services will be impacted by the decision. The company line is that route 40 is running at about 30% capacity, on average, and is therefore disposable.
But who on the central coast ever said that they needed a 115 car vessel on the route? BC Ferries put the Queen of Chilliwack on route 40 because that was the only vessel they could spare, after the government decided not to subsidize Coast Ferries to continue their service. What BC Ferries had available became the benchmark for judging the worth of the run... with no regard to the health or needs of the communities it serviced.
How would the decision to axe the run look if BC Ferries perhaps had a vessel like AMH's Tustumena available, with a capacity of 35-40 cars, and some staterooms? The capacity utilization then would have been approaching 100%, and the large number of European tourists would have a decent voyage through a splendid portion of British Columbia's coastline.
Should coastal communities like Bella Coola and Bella Bella bear the brunt of BC Ferries' inability to supply a vessel that fits their needs?
There has also been the suggestion raised that BC Ferries failed to promote route 40 as a tourist route. If they were wanting to axe the route all along, doesn't this ring true, at least slightly?
On a somewhat unrelated note, MileagePhoto offers his view that people should have gotten out to the 'consultative' meetings that BC Ferries held regarding the service cuts. I'm of two minds on this question. I personally decided not to go to the meeting here on Hornby because I felt the process was a sham, and that attending only legitimized the nonsensical notion that Christy and BC Ferries cared what ferry dependent communities thought. I respect the view of others who feel differently.
It may well be that BC Ferries and their completely unpolitical masters may revisit some of the decisions they have put forward for 'discussion'. However... I would suggest that if that does indeed happen, it will be for entirely cynical political reasons- as in- 'look how reasonable we are, we're listening to BC families in coastal communities'... and throwing them some crumbs. The attendees at the meetings will have been used as props for one of Christy's image building exercises.
I know this sounds horribly cynical. And if the powers that be back off from some of the cuts, it can only help the communities concerned, so however that is achieved, there is logic in the argument that the ends justify the means. But I still think that the best policy might have been to boycott the whole process, with a letter and email blitz to those concerned that clarified the reasoning.
We shall see. There is a lot at stake.
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Post by Mike C on Dec 11, 2013 23:30:50 GMT -8
Good thoughts. Just a quick response: On a somewhat unrelated note, MileagePhoto offers his view that people should have gotten out to the 'consultative' meetings that BC Ferries held regarding the service cuts. I'm of two minds on this question. I personally decided not to go to the meeting here on Hornby because I felt the process was a sham, and that attending only legitimized the nonsensical notion that Christy and BC Ferries cared what ferry dependent communities thought. I respect the view of others who feel differently. I think this is a totally fair statement to make, and I am sure you are not alone in that notion - between this and the Cable Ferry project, it seems that there is a lot of "talking-at-you" rather than "talking-with-you" coming from BC Ferries; residents have attended and participated in these meetings time and time again, without any incorporation of public input for the end result. I am of the belief that this process is a sham if they don't listen. If these cuts take effect, and there is no indication that public input was taken into consideration, then we can't call it consultation at all - BC Ferries has effectively provided the information and a venue in which to vent, rather than take advantage of the opportunity to listen to stakeholders. My view is that attending indicates a level of strength in the community, i.e. a low attendance rate could send the message of "this is a community where not much resistance will be met when we implement this plan." This is a high-stakes game, where community groups need to act on a basis of prevention rather than after-the-fact, as these cuts will not likely change post-implementation (service restoration will come when BCFS sees an opportunity to make money), which is why I feel that participation in this stage of the game is so crucial.
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Post by Ferryman on Dec 13, 2013 15:52:30 GMT -8
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Dec 13, 2013 17:05:21 GMT -8
That video above makes some really good points, and I strongly encourage all of you to go watch it. Here are perhaps the two best points: - BCFS has 1 manager for 6 crew, against 1 for 40 for WSF. Not counting onboard managers, just ones on land, if you were to put that at WSF levels you'd save...$70 MILLION. The ferry cuts are how much already? $18.9 million? That is just rediculas! - The province pays for the senior discounts, NOT BC Ferries. According to the video, that subsidy is not going to decrease but the senior discounts are going away. So that's BCFS taking money from the province to run its ships instead of providing discounts.
Unlike what I would expect from ferry workers, most of the discussion is about the access to the islands and peninsulas and the economy of those that will be hurt, not just cutting some employees, which reveals a very good mindset (IMO).
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