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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 13, 2006 20:52:17 GMT -8
Thanks to Mr. Jurgen Fock for those pics.
I could say more about Mr. Fock's name, but it would just be deleted. anyways.
If he was a forum member in BC, he could be "Coastal Fock".
.....sorry for the topic-hijack; I suppose that I should say something else relevant to the topic, other than the photographic prowess of Fock.
I can say that the blue seats don't look very attractive.........but orange or yellow would be worse.
Thanks T-Terminal, for doing the page-translation for us. I like how it said "Gate Hardy" for Port Hardy......gotta love those literal translations.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 13, 2006 21:33:30 GMT -8
In fairness to Cascade, he was pointing out that even though a ship may have been 'sold' at a certain time, even to a different nationality, it may just be a paper transaction between branches of the same firm, even a 'shell' company. Doesn't change the fact that the Sonia's engine problem was not a secret, but the paper trail can be confusing. I would like to see some evidence of the connection between Eurolineas Maritimas and the original owners, though.
Thanks to Dylan 'oceaneer' for his insights.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 13, 2006 22:56:55 GMT -8
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Post by yvr on Dec 13, 2006 23:24:16 GMT -8
Mr. Horn Bee
There were no complete internet articles available to the members of this forum regarding the engine failure at the time of the Sonia purchase. The Trinidad papers referenced by Capt Taylor no longer display the story. As Cascade points out, and John H referenced. we only had circumstantial evidence of engine deficiencies. Thus as I pointed out before, if Cascade had not made serious comments about this issue, BCF brass would never have mentioned the replaced engine. Why would they! Obviously the newspapers are reading our comments - just look at the recent press coverage. Would BCF want the papers saying that a main propulsion engine is a possible lemon? Thus to head of any criticism they struck first by coming clean. BCF had nothing to loose and everything to gain.
Now, as I mentioned in a previous post - BCF / Trafford please come clean on how the acquisition price more than doubled.
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Post by Curtis on Dec 14, 2006 7:56:20 GMT -8
I thought this was odd as well. that they downsized the capacity from 200 to 101. I wonder what made her carry 200 cars?
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 14, 2006 14:16:11 GMT -8
yvr- I hope that BC Ferries 'brass' starts paying the same attention to your posts that they obviously are to cascade's. That way, we should get an reply very quickly to your question regarding the Sonia's added costs. Especially, considering that you put your demands in bold face. That'll show them varmints.
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Post by oceaneer77 on Dec 14, 2006 17:19:33 GMT -8
Hi Cascade
Thanks As for the LLoyds records.... no way to get them unless you have ownership/management of the vessel or some old calssification documents.. but that would be fraud
But i can find any recals and parts updates on the series 32 engine. I doubt that it will help much. Most meltdowns are operator induced or installer induced. The later being common in the greek yards. THe companys warrinty the product because if they do not they will not sell to the yard/company again.
Dylan H
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Post by yvr on Dec 14, 2006 23:53:34 GMT -8
Mr. Horn Bee
If it were not for Cascade pointing out the continual BCF faux pas, who would be the watch dog? Do you really believe there's an organization that investigates to the detail Cascade does? Given access to Ferries records I believe Cascade could come up with a scathing report, that would make tax payers cry. Obviously you feel that our rants are not read, nor responded to by BCF. Do I think Trafford will respond to my bold print statement - "why have Sonia costs doubled". not in the slightest. But, the media reads this sight and they will either find out, or embarrass Trafford into an explanation. I unlike you, care where my tax dollar is going!
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Post by oceaneer77 on Dec 15, 2006 13:27:18 GMT -8
Hello Cascade Thanks for your last post The engine questions... Most likley with the MaK engines are the piston rings, they have amde some changes to the alloy... below are some links to canadian tsb reports www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/ marine/earlier/m93m0002/m93m0002.asp - 39k www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/ marine/1995/m95l0009/m95l0009.asp - 17k The most proble cause for medium speed diesel engines 450-1000 rpm is human error in assembly/refit I still have not got the update list for these engines from the rep.. As for the wastege question, it realy is not a problem for hull integrity unless it sat for a very long time. It is a problem for normal mtnc on the vessel as it is almost impossible to get rid of all rust, they will be continulay painting! i feel for the poor painters trapped in the bilges! But keep in mind that rust/oxidation looks quiet bad it expands to a factor of 100 (that is not the exact figure i will look it up in one of my books if you want) so if you have 100mm of rust you have only wasted 1mm just one more thing for all of the doubters of the canadian system.. just try and find the findings of other countres accident review boards! with the exception of the MCA of whom our system is modeled after you will be hard pressed. Dylan H
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Post by oceaneer77 on Dec 17, 2006 16:35:10 GMT -8
Yes Cascade i agree she is not the prefect vessel.... But as for the climate the engines will run just fine in cold water as the coolers will be oversized and the thermostats (yes ships have thermostats too, just larger and more of them) will do thier jobs. The engine make is one that BC ferries is used to and comfortable with and is the number 2 engine for large commerical vessels. They are a good engine just not as good as a wartsila / sulzer. But whay better than a ruston/ GE/ 36 series cat/ polar.. the list goes on
Over time it will be a good vessel, and built for the med is a plus because it is harder to build for warm humid climates then cold (and damp ones). The airconditoning / heating lines will have more insulation and the ship in general will be better insulated (it is harder to insulate for A/C then heating). Haiving said this artic conditions require a whole different standard.
Some modifications will have to be made but not nearly as mich as going the other way..
One big thing that no one has clued in on is power on the vessel and shore power.. she will be 380/220 v 50Hz..
This means that all equipment will come from europe, even the light bulbs. due to the wire size (higher voltage requires smaller wire for the same wattage) it is impossible to just convert to north american voltage withour replacing every wire on the ship. (we do have the worlds stupidest power systems here... just have to be different!)
So the ship will need a 110/220v system for the passengers and staterooms.. (lots of rewiring) and a converter when the ship is on shore power.. this is all expensive.
Dylan H Oceaneer77
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 17, 2006 16:56:38 GMT -8
Dylan/oceaneer- your engineering insight is much appreciated, as it's not something we have a lot of here. Good to hear that a 'warm water' ship is more of a plus than a minus. With the electrical conversion, they had to do that with the 'North and the 'Chilliwack, so, nothing too new there.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 17, 2006 19:42:50 GMT -8
They never converted the electrical system on the North. It had incandescent light bulbs imported from Europe. I did not have a close look at the Chilliwack but I expect the same thing. The North did have converters in the state rooms for shavers and other low wattage items to be plugged into. I do not expect that the $9 million about to be spent on the Sonia will include major changes to the electrical system.
Can I continue to call her the Sonia rather than that handle that BCFS management chose?
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Post by oceaneer77 on Dec 19, 2006 9:08:52 GMT -8
More fuel for an old fire..... sorry to post so late... but it shows the engines are good but the company is / was cheap
Reports: 11 January 2006 Sonia (Bahamas) Port of Spain, Jan 11 -- Understand passenger ro/ro Sonia has been trading between Port of Spain and Scarborough since Jan 21, 2005. -- Lloyd's Agents. (Note -- Sonia was reported anchored at Port of Spain Jan 15, 2005, due to fuel pump problem caused by poor-quality diesel, and was believed still repairing Jan 21.) 21 January 2005 Sonia (Bahamas) Port of Spain, Jan 21 -- The following statement, from the Port Authority of Trinidad and Tobago, appears in local newspapers today: The Authority regrets that passenger ro/ro Sonia did not sail on Jan 18 as promised. This was due to the fact that solving the technical problem turned out to be more time consuming than previously envisaged. Management is monitoring the situation and will continue to furnish status reports to both the line minister and the Chairman of the Board. The public is informed that the contract with ISP provides for suspension of lease payments for the period that the vessel is out of service and for ISP to undertake all repairs to the vessel. We wish to reassure the public that in spite of this setback the sea bridge will continue uninterruptedly with the three vessels Panorama, Beauport and The Cat. We regret any inconvenience caused to persons who had purchased tickets for Sonia and be assured that we are working assiduously to return the vessel to service in the shortest possible time. -- Lloyd's Agents. (See issue of Jan 21.) 19 January 2005 Sonia (Bahamas) Port of Spain, Jan 19 -- Passenger ro/ro Sonia is being used for travel on the seabridge between Port of Spain, Trinidad and Scarborough, Tobago, a distance of some 56 miles. According to a press release, the problem has been rectified. However, the vessel has not yet sailed from Port of Spain. -- Lloyd's Agents. (See issue of Jan 18.) 16 January 2005 Sonia (? Bahamas) London, Jan 16 -- A press report, dated today, states: Passenger ro/ro Sonia (? 7000 gt, built 2004) remained anchored at the Cruise Ship Complex, Port of Spain, yesterday after the vessel encountered fuel pump problems. Poor quality diesel fuel used by Sonia has damaged the boat's fuel pump, forcing the new inter-island ferry to be taken out of service yesterday, according to a senior Port Authority official. The official said that the fuel pump was being repaired yesterday and was expected to be completed in time for Sonia, which began sailing the inter-island service last month, to resume sailing today. The official explained that the fuel being produced here for the US$24,000 per day boat was "not as refined as the one produced in North America for use on the boat". The official said that long-term measures would be implemented to ensure that the fuel used by the boat in future was of the highest quality. It is understood that the fast ferry The Cat made an extra sailing yesterday to accommodate travellers, and that passenger ro/ro Panorama also made a trip, carrying more than 100 passengers in addition to cargo. Tomorrow is election day in Tobago, and both Sonia and The Cat are expected to operate the inter-island service.
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Post by yvr on Dec 19, 2006 12:44:51 GMT -8
More good information Oceaneer, thanks for joining the board.
I've been told there was no heat on the vessel for the last few days. Do you have any information regarding that?
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 20, 2006 22:50:46 GMT -8
In the Global TV report from on board the Sonia, reporter Kim Emerson stated that the vessel had a nine million dollar refit before making the journey to BC. Didn't say what that involved, but if that's accurate, it closes the gap a bit between 50 million and 100 million.
Purchase 51 million, duties 17m., two refits 18m.= 86 million. We don't know the total cost of the search and purchase project which started last March, which is also included in the 100m. Plus, possible financing costs? May account for the rest.
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Doug
Voyager
Lurking within...the car deck.
Posts: 2,213
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Post by Doug on Dec 20, 2006 23:07:44 GMT -8
In the Global TV report from on board the Sonia, reporter Kim Emerson stated that the vessel had a nine million dollar refit before making the journey to BC. Didn't say what that involved, but if that's accurate, it closes the gap a bit between 50 million and 100 million. Purchase 51 million, duties 17m., two refits 18m.= 86 million. We don't know the total cost of the search and purchase project which started last March, which is also included in the 100m. Plus, possible financing costs? May account for the rest. Did they also mention Mr. Hahn's salary in that report? How about the Oak Bay crash?
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 21, 2006 15:00:32 GMT -8
I see now, from looking at the BC Ferry Commission site, that the $106 million also includes terminal improvements on the central and north coast. So we now have included: search/replacement project, purchase cost, refit, journey here, add'l refit, duties, and terminal improvements. Even if Cascade is correct about no financing costs being in there, I think we may now have just about accounted for the whole sum. I agree, though: we deserve an itemized accounting.
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Post by Dane on Dec 21, 2006 18:24:58 GMT -8
Did anyone think to ask for one? Or is this just Forum based complaining?
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Post by yvr on Dec 21, 2006 22:18:05 GMT -8
Pleased to see Hornby Guy has come around. He's added his name to those who would like an accounting of the Sonia acquisition costs. As for Dane's suggestion - ask them for a spread sheet, a great idea but BCF doesn't appear to be accountable to the taxpayer.
I guess we'll have to wait for the Vancouver Province to pick up on BCF's spending habits.
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Post by Dane on Dec 21, 2006 23:14:14 GMT -8
Instead of saying they won't be accountable just try - a word without an action is worse than inaction itself.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,271
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Post by Neil on Dec 22, 2006 9:54:47 GMT -8
Purchase of the M.V. “Sonia” and Associated Terminal Modification Costs $106 million After the loss of the M.V. “Queen of the North”, BC Ferries undertook an international search for a replacement vessel. After an extensive search, BC Ferries determined that the M.V. “Sonia” was a suitable vessel and would meet the service requirements for route 10 and Transport Canada’s (TC) operational regulations. The M.V. “Sonia” will enter service in April 2007. The acquisition of the M.V. “Sonia” and the associated terminal modifications were declared to be reasonably required by the Commissioner in Order 06-04.
-from Performance Term Two report to the BC Ferry Commission.
The terminal improvements are included in the $106 million.
yvr- I had no objection to people questioning the costs. My objection was to people instantly assuming scandal or wrong doing just because they didn't immediately have all the figures.
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Post by yvr on Dec 28, 2006 23:03:50 GMT -8
Sonia (Northern Adventure) Horrid deck layout.
Numerous members of this board have stated they would like to see panoramic windows installed in the forward lounges of the Sonia. After studying the deck plans I came up with this synopsis. Starting at the top of the vessel - deck 8 is the bridge. The next deck down (7) is mostly cabins. It appears four forward facing portholes belong to upscale cabins on this deck. Proceeding down, deck 6 has an upscale lounge (extra fee???) on the starboard side - this appears to consume two fwd facing porthole windows. This leaves all the remaining passengers fighting over two fwd. facing portholes!!!
This ship will be plying the inside passage, one of the most picturesque areas of the province. After paying their fare the passengers are given just two fwd. facing portholes to observe our province.
Nice piece of work BCF, and you only paid $106 million for this tub!!!
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Dec 29, 2006 9:38:54 GMT -8
Take out those extra fancy cabins and put in a foward lounge. I dont think BC Ferries needs any upscale cabins. You guys should stop complaining. Nothing is going to be as good as the Queen of the North. Not even the Sonia. For now she is all they have. I think she looks like a nice ship and I hope to get on her in 2007.
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Post by Kevin on Dec 29, 2006 11:12:20 GMT -8
Can anyone post plans or post a link to the plans for the Sonia?
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Dec 29, 2006 11:12:39 GMT -8
(sorry this is a bit off topic) cascade, there is no explaining to do, the structure is set up since the liberals run the show, yet the system is privatized, they do not have to disclose a lot. There is dirt somewhere and they should be explaining, yet, they use the privatization of BCFS as an excuse to hide the dirt. We will not know any truth whatsoever due to this combination in logical terms.
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