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Post by WettCoast on Oct 29, 2023 10:57:22 GMT -8
BC Ferries has four newish ships built by FSG in their fleet, the three Coastals as well as the Northern Expedition. Three of the four of these vessels have suffered serious "drive train" issues over the last couple of years. This has had a significant impact on the travelling public's perception of BC Ferries reliability. First it was the NorEx with an engine failure (2021 in the midst of the summer peak season) and then this year's troubles with the Celebration & the Renaissance. Now they have to deal with changing out the rotors on all the drive motors on all the Coastals. Are these premature failures? I believe the answer is yes but I am hardly an expert on this subject.
Although these failures are all what I call "drive train" related, it involves different equipment from more than one manufacturer. I think it probably has little if anything to do with the quality of FSG's work. The issues could also be related to proper maintenance (or lack of) since BCFS acquired these vessels.
I wonder if BCFS is still looking at acquiring new major vessels from FSG?
Note: I am using the word observation and am not trying to imply anything about reliability or quality of vessels coming from FSG.
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Post by Dane on Oct 29, 2023 12:18:50 GMT -8
I have been a bit torn about this myself. Until the recent announcement that all three Coastals needing part replacements, I thought the FSG discussion was largely a creation of the online-panics that can happen when everyone decides they want to be upset about something. I also remind myself that the ferries aren't new, by any means, anymore. If it where anywhere but Western North America they'd be mid-life.
BC Ferries has a robust history of major vessel issues; however, the age of the major vessel fleet means that the Coastals are the only vessels to have their whole history online.
The C Class have had clutch issues on and off for their entire lives. At some pretty significant expense, I can only imagine. At least twice BC Ferries has had custom-made clutches made for all five C Class.
The V/B class engine issues depending on the ship/engine type. The Queen of New West has had at least two catastrophic events with its engines - one which directly led to it being the vessel that was lifted from among the B class. It was 'dead" and in storage at the time. The Burnaby was the vessel scheduled to be lifted]
The SoBC had major sewage issues for the first few years of life that caused it to be pulled from service - once for 45 days, not fully corrected until the trip to Poland.
Although not a major vessel, the Skeena Queen had been a mess or needing to be re-powered, re-designed. It took years to get it working right. The Queen of Capilano had propulsion issues to with 'bad' RADs.
This is not intended to be exhaustive. Rather, just some reflections that there has been a lot of issues in the past. Washington State seems to have similar experiences with similarly aged ships, I seem to recall?
It is certainly unfortunate what is happening right now for the traveling public though. And BC Ferries, in my opinion, has demonstrated persistent terrible management decisions for the last several years so I am cynical, albeit with no direct knowledge, about what the maintenance program looks like these days.
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Oct 29, 2023 17:45:49 GMT -8
Further to Dane's observation, some facts and figures from the other side of the border:
The summer of 2017 was chaos at WSF, with six different vessels suffering breakdowns that necessitated their removal from service for over a week. One of those boats was the then two-year old Samish, which was sidelined for eight (if I recall correctly) weeks by a propeller shaft coupling failure. More recently, the Chimacum spent a large part of 2022 out of service due to a reduction gear malfunction. A similar issue also sidelined the Tokitae for a substantial period of time.
The Tacoma was about the same age in 2014 as the Coastals are now. That year, a fuse failure in that boat's propulsion system led to a total loss of power, roughly $2,000,000 worth of damage, and nine months out of service.
Ferries are extremely complex machines, with a lot of moving parts. With so many potential points of failure, I'd argue that unforeseen issues are nearly inevitable on any vessel regardless of age, upkeep, and construction quality.
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Post by Mike C on Oct 29, 2023 19:11:15 GMT -8
I think part of the reason this is rightly a relevant topic is that these three are major vessels, which creates an environment where mechanical failures are far higher profile than similar failures on other ships. They are additionally vulnerable by the fact that there is no 'spare ratio' for the major fleet, meaning that any mechanical issue that results in the ship being unable to sail, results directly in lost service until the ship is back online.
Media outlets in Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo and elsehwere have been tuned to these failures, and report on them. However they are far less likely to report on sailing cancelations of, say, the Tachek, unless there was some event of significance that had ripple effects across the system. Issues with the Coastals have been making news here in Prince George, which tells you something.
These three ships carry a substantial portion of traffic between some of the provinces largest urban centres and the public has a fair expectation that they should be reliable. I think that, in hindsight, BCF will be reviewing some of the asset management decisions with regard to the major fleet, and hopefully try to move forward on a plan where we have a fleet with greater resilience.
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Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Oct 29, 2023 19:50:41 GMT -8
I think part of the reason this is rightly a relevant topic is that these three are major vessels, which creates an environment where mechanical failures are far higher profile than similar failures on other ships. They are additionally vulnerable by the fact that there is no 'spare ratio' for the major fleet, meaning that any mechanical issue that results in the ship being unable to sail, results directly in lost service until the ship is back online. Media outlets in Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo and elsehwere have been tuned to these failures, and report on them. However they are far less likely to report on sailing cancelations of, say, the Tachek, unless there was some event of significance that had ripple effects across the system. Issues with the Coastals have been making news here in Prince George, which tells you something. These three ships carry a substantial portion of traffic between some of the provinces largest urban centres and the public has a fair expectation that they should be reliable. I think that, in hindsight, BCF will be reviewing some of the asset management decisions with regard to the major fleet, and hopefully try to move forward on a plan where we have a fleet with greater resilience. This is a really difficult topic for laypeople like us to comment on knowingly. Two points that Dane makes are: We don't know what commitment BC Ferries has to regular maintenance, and, the problems that the Coastals have been prone to are perhaps more directed at manufacturers/suppliers of Coastal engineering systems than the shipbuilder. We don't know that. Flensburger did become insolvent a few years ago. Perhaps that was a result of covid, or competition from Asian yards. Or problems with their newbuilds? I have no idea. Ships break down. Hullo has had their teething problems. WSF, AMHS, and countless other marine passenger systems let their customers down on a regular basis. BC Ferries has regular breakdowns, in vessels new and old. I don't know if this is due to poor building, poor maintenance, and perhaps there's a misguided public expectation about the performance of heavily used vessels in marine environments? I know that the last few years, I've had little faith that my reservation was actually going to get me where I need to go, when I need to be there. Whether it's crew shortages, weather, or breakdowns, we can't count on BC Ferries, and it's food for thought as to why. |
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Post by Brandon S on Oct 30, 2023 15:31:20 GMT -8
I think part of the reason this is rightly a relevant topic is that these three are major vessels, which creates an environment where mechanical failures are far higher profile than similar failures on other ships. They are additionally vulnerable by the fact that there is no 'spare ratio' for the major fleet, meaning that any mechanical issue that results in the ship being unable to sail, results directly in lost service until the ship is back online. Media outlets in Vancouver, Victoria, Nanaimo and elsehwere have been tuned to these failures, and report on them. However they are far less likely to report on sailing cancelations of, say, the Tachek, unless there was some event of significance that had ripple effects across the system. Issues with the Coastals have been making news here in Prince George, which tells you something. These three ships carry a substantial portion of traffic between some of the provinces largest urban centres and the public has a fair expectation that they should be reliable. I think that, in hindsight, BCF will be reviewing some of the asset management decisions with regard to the major fleet, and hopefully try to move forward on a plan where we have a fleet with greater resilience. Ships break down. Hullo has had their teething problems. WSF, AMHS, and countless other marine passenger systems let their customers down on a regular basis. BC Ferries has regular breakdowns, in vessels new and old. I don't know if this is due to poor building, poor maintenance, and perhaps there's a misguided public expectation about the performance of heavily used vessels in marine environments? Same could be said in any industry for that matter. Aviation, Trains, Cars, etc... Working in the aviation industry I see it all the time. You can keep up with the maintenance as much as you want but at the end of the day its always the 10 cent o-ring that keeps it from going anywhere! |
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Post by Dane on Oct 30, 2023 17:33:04 GMT -8
Same could be said in any industry for that matter. Aviation, Trains, Cars, etc... Working in the aviation industry I see it all the time. You can keep up with the maintenance as much as you want but at the end of the day its always the 10 cent o-ring that keeps it from going anywhere! Queen of Oak Bay's $2.49 cotter pin enters the chat. |
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Post by Brandon S on Oct 30, 2023 17:47:17 GMT -8
Same could be said in any industry for that matter. Aviation, Trains, Cars, etc... Working in the aviation industry I see it all the time. You can keep up with the maintenance as much as you want but at the end of the day its always the 10 cent o-ring that keeps it from going anywhere! Queen of Oak Bay's $2.49 cotter pin enters the chat. Ha! |
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 31, 2023 10:32:17 GMT -8
Christmas at Departure Bay ... An ailing Coastal Celebration sits out the busy Christmas-New Year holiday period with a visit to Nanaimo's Departure Bay Terminal, an unusual spot for this ship. I gather that it needs a replacement part that has to come from Europe and that it will be a few months before the fix is done.
Christmas Day 2022
A 'troubled' Coastal Renaissance - broken down & awaiting rebuilt parts @ berth 1, Departure Bay
December Day 2023
Question: Will the C Inspiration be sitting at Departure Bay on Christmas Day, 2024, awaiting new/replaced parts? I hope not. |
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Post by Ollie on Dec 31, 2023 20:58:50 GMT -8
Christmas at Departure Bay ... An ailing Coastal Celebration sits out the busy Christmas-New Year holiday period with a visit to Nanaimo's Departure Bay Terminal, an unusual spot for this ship. I gather that it needs a replacement part that has to come from Europe and that it will be a few months before the fix is done.
Christmas Day 2022
A 'troubled' Coastal Renaissance - broken down & awaiting rebuilt parts @ berth 1, Departure Bay
December Day 2023
Question: Will the C Inspiration be sitting at Departure Bay on Christmas Day, 2024, awaiting new/replaced parts? I hope not.
Do the ferries not go rotten when sitting for long periods of time like that? Surely they must have to do some regular maintenance to keep the rest of the ferry in good condition. The lights are left on the whole time as well and they don't seem to burn out.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078 
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Post by Nick on Jan 26, 2024 7:58:31 GMT -8
I've talked to a few contractors who are working with BCF on the Coastals, as well as asked plenty of questions on my recent crossings regarding the transit via Boundary Pass. This is what I've learned:
The drive motors on the Coastals are wearing out prematurely. Specifically, the armature structure is wearing/cracking due to the stop/start cycles they are exposed to. The armature of the motor has to be completely replaced. The Coastals were built in a way that allows easy access to the main engines and generators for servicing, but the drive motors are not so easy as they are buried beneath the centerline structure. This, along with parts availability and manufacturing timelines, is why it's taking so long.
The transit via Boundary Pass is because some of the drive motors are in worse condition than others. They don't fully trust the motor for transit through tight confines such as Active Pass. They could flip the ship around, sail through on the "good end", but this would take just as much time as Boundary.
As for the C-class: My understanding is that they can transit through Active Pass, but must be put in "Mode 2", using the forward propeller and rudder as a bow thruster of sorts. The transit would be done at much slower speed, and consume a lot of fuel. The Mode 2 requirement became a thing after the Alberni incident. While it was ruled to be a navigational error, a contributing factor was the reduced maneuverability of the C class vs the V and B class which were common on route 1 at the time. Somewhere around this forum a long time ago someone posted the internal investigation report from the incident. Dane? Maybe?
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 26, 2024 21:46:24 GMT -8
They could flip the ship around, sail through on the "good end", but this would take just as much time as Boundary. I find that a bit hard to believe. The turning around of the single-enders on route 1 adds maybe five minutes to their transit times and they have no problem keeping the schedule. The Celebration was being 'turned' at least on some tips this past fall. I watched it back in September do a 180 just off Tsawwassen Terminal.
Then there is all that extra fuel burned going the long way. It also appears that they are running the Inspiration a fair bit faster then they would normally on route 1 (+ 1 or 1.5 knots) thus increasing the fuel burn further and maybe putting additional stress on those drive motors.
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Post by Ferryman on Jan 26, 2024 22:36:08 GMT -8
They could flip the ship around, sail through on the "good end", but this would take just as much time as Boundary. I find that a bit hard to believe. The turning around of the single-enders on route 1 adds maybe five minutes to their transit times and they have no problem keeping the schedule. The Celebration was being 'turned' at least on some tips this past fall. I watched it back in September do a 180 just off Tsawwassen Terminal.
Then there is all that extra fuel burned going the long way. It also appears that they are running the Inspiration a fair bit faster then they would normally on route 1 (+ 1 or 1.5 knots) thus increasing the fuel burn further and maybe putting additional stress on those drive motors.
Turning around a double ender is a different process than a single ender, because it's not standard practice to dock the vessel with the bridge team operating from the offshore end of the vessel like a single ender would. There's not enough crew to team up on both bridges simultaneously and so it takes time for crew to literally walk from one bridge to the other. What this means is the vessel would stop up entirely, and half of the bridge team would walk to the other end, take control at the other end, and then literally wait for the rest of the bridge team to arrive at the now-operational bridge. One other fun fact is that the Inspiration has a different propeller blade and hub arrangement compared to the other Coastals. She has slightly smaller propeller blades that afford more pitch which have actually resulted in a slightly higher service speed. |
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Post by Ollie on Jan 26, 2024 22:50:19 GMT -8
Which Coastal will be getting a refit first? For the Celebration and the Inspiration, would they have to wait longer for their refits or will they get a regular refit before fixing their problems? I don’t remember if they needed parts like the Renaissance or not.
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Post by Ollie on Jan 31, 2024 17:14:43 GMT -8
BC Ferries Service Notice about the Coastal Inspiration:
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 31, 2024 20:45:25 GMT -8
BC Ferries Service Notice about the Coastal Inspiration:
Its nice to see BCFS finally putting out some good information on this situation. They should have done this a month ago. |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 31, 2024 21:14:18 GMT -8
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Post by Ollie on Feb 1, 2024 20:06:21 GMT -8
This is a very useful link. Thanks for posting this!
It looks like the Celebration is going to get its refit before the Renaissance gets repaired?
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Post by priver on Feb 2, 2024 8:57:25 GMT -8
I’m going way back here probably to 2007 or earlier when the coastal were being built and remember some discussion from B.C. Ferries and them making the decision of not installing VFD’S (variable frequency drives) on the drive motors. I see that they have finally seen the ramifications of not spending that money during construction as I can almost garrentee the pre mature wear of the drive motor rotors would not have occurred if the vfd had been installed. From one of the news articles I read they said they are getting installed during these refits which will give the drive motors speed control and soft starting ability which I’m sure could also translate into fuel savings.
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grk2
Deckhand
Posts: 91
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Post by grk2 on Feb 3, 2024 12:55:50 GMT -8
Very interesting. This shifts the blame or fault away from the builder and into BC Ferries. Now I wonder if this was just the bean counters, or were the mechanical managers on side with this unfortunate decision?
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