BCF to manage Town of Sidney Ferry Terminal

[Ferry Rider 42]

Coudln't resist staying on the sidelines,

Here is my take on this Sidney terminal. BC Ferries would only get itself involved in a long term lease if it was confident it could make money over that long term. There seems to be some sort of objective companies work towards; something like, don’t do stupid things that can loose money.

My gut felling says they hope to profit from ancillary terminal services such as food courts and advertising space. But they knew going into this that Washington State Ferries could pull out at anytime throughout the lease. It could be next year, or it could be in 15 years. If god forbid, WSF does leave, there would be very little potential for profit from any terminal services… since the cars and people are gone.

Not wanting to loose money, I don’t see BCF leaving the terminal empty for the remainder of the lease. Instead, I think they have prepared a number of plans for the terminal depending on what each of the parties does. I am positive one of these plans includes at minimum a rough outline of a route should Washington Ferries abandon Sidney.

My point is this; I think BCF has determined there is potential of a route using Sidney. They knew going in that WSF can leave at any point throughout the lease. But, I don’t think we will see any hint of a BCF route untill WSF leaves.

[Ferry Rider 42]

You raise a very good point Cascade. There are serious limitations with the current roads servicing that dinky terminal. But, Vancouver Island in general is hesitant enough towards development. Now, Sidney… well, Sidney enjoys living in the stone-age. Locals recognize it’s difficult to even accomplish small projects like say, building a new side walk. Even for something so simple seniors will hobble over to city hall using their easy walkers, and revolt against the encroaching development they perceive to be following if that sidewalk is constructed.

Building a whole new road, not a chance, it will never fly. Perhaps significantly upgrading Lochside could be forced thru. I imagine BCF would pay for much of it. Just like the Swartz Bay approach improvements a while back. But even so, we all know those Sidney seniors will be outraged. Personally, I think BCF is hoping WSF stays for another decade of two. Perhaps by then, more of the older generation will be taking pills for paranoia.

[Mike C]

Ferry said:

You raise a very good point Cascade. There are serious limitations with the current roads servicing that dinky terminal. But, Vancouver Island in general is hesitant enough towards development. Now, Sidney… well, Sidney enjoys living in the stone-age. Locals recognize it’s difficult to even accomplish small projects like say, building a new side walk. Even for something so simple seniors will hobble over to city hall using their easy walkers, and revolt against the encroaching development they perceive to be following if that sidewalk is constructed.

This sounds an awful lot like my neighbourhood


And TRUST ME, folks, it's frustrating

[Political Incorrectness]

Sure sounds like a place where our county mall is

[Neil]

Ferry said:

Now, Sidney… well, Sidney enjoys living in the stone-age. Locals recognize it’s difficult to even accomplish small projects like say, building a new side walk. Even for something so simple seniors will hobble over to city hall using their easy walkers, and revolt against the encroaching development they perceive to be following if that sidewalk is constructed.

.... But even so, we all know those Sidney seniors will be outraged. Personally, I think BCF is hoping WSF stays for another decade of two. Perhaps by then, more of the older generation will be taking pills for paranoia.

.....and after that passage of time, 'ferry rider 42' himself will be twenty years closer to being a senior, and might be a little more forgiving of why old folks sometimes like things just as they are.

[Barnacle]

Ferry said:

...Perhaps by then, more of the older generation will be taking pills for paranoia.

Don't be daft, you young whippersnapper. I ain't takin' any pill that they want me to take because it's for mind control! D'ye hear me, mind control!

Don't move my water dish.

Seriously, though, I live in the village/town of Anacortes, where the most vocal demographic is without a doubt the retirees. Even the assortment of warmongers and protesters meeting on opposite corners of the main intersection on Sundays are a bunch of seniors with nothing better to do. Though I've considered joining the anti- crowd once or twice... I treasure my time off and will have to wait until I'm retired to be a public nuisance. ;D

[ruddernut]

fenklebaum said:

After some consideration, it makes sense that WSF thinks of BC Ferries as its' competition. Consider the following:

Considering that they're public organizations that are part of their respective province/state's highway systems set up to serve the public, they ideally should be working together to maximize convenience and efficiency to the travellers, not competing with each other for business. Think of all the extra waste, both in terms of the travellers' time and the gas used, to make those travelling between Washington State and the Island to go all the way up around Tsawassen. Increased runs to/from Anacortes and Port Angeles should be encouraged to minimize waste and reduce the load and wait times on the Tsawassen-Swartz runs.

As for what use BCF has for the Sidney terminal, is it forseeable that in the future, they may run ferry service to Sidney or James Island, or some other islands in that area?

[Ferry Rider 42]

Ohhh, now I think we stumbled onto something. Besides James island, perhaps also looking to compete with the salt-spring ferry. These runs make more sense then those previously thought of that carry large number of car.

[Barnacle]

cascade said:

Small "pocket" Cruise ship's - sorry but not a real do'able situation - as there is nothing in Sidney to hold them. Yes it could be a "Technical" stop - thereby keeping the Cruise within the laws - but what good does it do BCFS or the Township of Sidney?

Moorage fees. Next question?

[ruddernut]

cascade said:

Sidney Island is a National Park - part of the Gulf Island National Parks.

From the looks of this map, only the northern tip of it is park.

maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=b&z=13&ll=48.622924,-123.30677&spn=0.07228,0.1157&om=1

[Ferry Rider 42]

Ferry said:

Ohhh, now I think we stumbled onto something. Besides James island, perhaps also looking to compete with the salt-spring ferry. These runs make more sense then those previously thought of that carry large number of car.

Salt-spring ferry! What was I thinking, I meant Sidney-Spit ferry... duh brain fart a few months ago.

[Retrovision]

ruddernut said:

cascade said:

Sidney Island is a National Park - part of the Gulf Island National Parks.

From the looks of this map, only the northern tip of it is park.

You're right, ruddernut, looking at the brochure for the Gulf Islands National Park Reserve of Canada now it shows only the northern quarter or less of the island as part of the park. An interesting side note about the Gulf Islands reserve is that part of it is actually on the Saanich Penninsula of Vancouver Island, near Swartz Bay at the McDonald Park Road exit, marked here still as a provincial park...
www.tinyurl.com/27h9ta

Ferry said:

Ferry said:

Ohhh, now I think we stumbled onto something. Besides James island, perhaps also looking to compete with the salt-spring ferry. These runs make more sense then those previously thought of that carry large number of car.

Salt-spring ferry! What was I thinking, I meant Sidney-Spit ferry.

I certainly hoped so

[DENelson83]

Hey, when WSF isn't doing the Anacortes-Sidney run in the winter, why not have BCF pick up that run?

[Coastal Canuck]

I second that.

The only thing is, where are the ferries going to dock. WSF might not allow them to dock at Anacortes

[SS San Mateo]

denelson83 said:

Hey, when WSF isn't doing the Anacortes-Sidney run in the winter, why not have BCF pick up that run?

What vessel would be used? Based on traffic, the most likely vessels would be the Queen of Tsawwassen, Naniamo, and Burnaby.

Can both docks even accomodate any of those vessels?

[Political Incorrectness]

What is the point even if the traffic is low and BCFS is for profit. They probably would not even pick it up if they had a chance to.

[Balfour]

BCF would likely not do it because only 1 of their vessels have SOLAS, which is required for international service, and that vessel is the NorAd. And of course the NorAd is needed up north right now.

[BreannaF]

Random thoughts on the use of the Sidney terminal......

• It seems likely that if there were a market for Anacortes to Sidney in the Winter that WSF would already be doing that.
  
• It seems likely that if there were enough traffic to justify 3 (or 4 or more) sailings a day on the route, that it would also have been done by now.
  
• Exception to the above two points: If there were some sort of specialty boat going on (whale watching, tour as opposed to transportation), then that might be one viable use for the dock. But those things tend to be more passenger-oriented rather than auto-oriented. So dock space would be less costly elsewhere.
  
• If BC ferries were going to go just about anywhere from Sidney -- different Gulf Islands, more service to TSA, off to Prince Rupert, whatever -- it would make as much sense to just do it from SWB anyway.
  
• Sidney is 30km or so from Victoria. Even if the Inner Harbour port for the Coho somehow disappeared due to the land being too valuable or something, it would almost make sense to build a new dock somewhere closer to downtown Victoria. But I'm not counting on that happening. There's enough passenger-only traffic coming in through there anyway that there will always be some sort of transportation depot there. Are we going to drop off tourists in the thick of things, or 30km away? I didn't think so.
  
• Seattle to Sidney? Edmonds to Sidney? Keystone to Sidney? Stop me when I get to something here that doesn't belong in the "Dream Routes" thread. Even if you thought "well wait a minute" for one of those, why wouldn't we want to drop tourists in Victoria, the place they really want to go. (And I'm not really picking on Sidney. It's a nice place. I had lunch there once. On the way to Victoria. Via TSA and SWB.)
  
• A truck terminal? There are much more efficient places to do that.
  

I'm as romantic about ferries as the next guy. My wife says it's much more so. But I'm really stumped as to what a person could use it for, something that isn't a sort of make-work project. Ideas?

[Barnacle]

I was going to respond to that, but BryanK has already covered the vast majority of it. WSF dropped the Sidney run in winter because of the complete and utter lack of traffic. I have made trips from Sidney on the mighty Evergreen where we have carried a whopping two cars. It isn't economically feasible to run between New Year's Day and the first of April. Period.

We won't even get into the concept of whether or not a BC ferry would fit into the docks at Anacortes (though I'm sure it would). The BCF boat would also not be able to make multiple stops in US waters (Jones Act regulation) so it would either be Friday Harbor (which is nearly as in the middle of nowhere as Port Angeles) or Anacortes (which means a six hour round trip for two cars). (There isn't enough room to turn a V-class around in Friday Harbor, either, so it would have to back in or out... a dicey proposition, to say the least).

[FNS]

As for a BCF ferry landing at a WSF dock, one already has. The MV QUEEN OF BURNABY. She was practicing landings at Colman Dock prior to starting her Seattle-Victoria service in disguise as ROYAL VICTORIAN. The Victoria Line would have used Colman Dock as a backup if Pier 48 wasn't available for one reason or another. I saw this on a TV news of her startup on the 4.5 hour run.

[Barnacle]

That's right, I remember that now that you mention. In fact I even remember the name 'Queen of Burnaby' thrown about at the time.

[EGfleet]

barnacle said:

I was going to respond to that, but BryanK has already covered the vast majority of it. WSF dropped the Sidney run in winter because of the complete and utter lack of traffic. I have made trips from Sidney on the mighty Evergreen where we have carried a whopping two cars. It isn't economically feasible to run between New Year's Day and the first of April. Period.

We won't even get into the concept of whether or not a BC ferry would fit into the docks at Anacortes (though I'm sure it would). The BCF boat would also not be able to make multiple stops in US waters (Jones Act regulation) so it would either be Friday Harbor (which is nearly as in the middle of nowhere as Port Angeles) or Anacortes (which means a six hour round trip for two cars). (There isn't enough room to turn a V-class around in Friday Harbor, either, so it would have to back in or out... a dicey proposition, to say the least).

...and this is why the latest rumor is that the State is planning on dropping the fall schedule as well, which is why the summer schedule is running so late this year. It might be that Anacortes-Sidney becomes a spring-summer sailing only.

In addition, the other rumor floating around the Sidney dock is that BCF is planning on using the Sidney dock to run out to the Islands.

Again, all this is speculation at this point, but I can tell you from experience that the average number of cars on the Sidney run after October 1 is about 12 cars.

[ferryrider42]

A possible additional use for the Sidney ferry terminal proposed. Below is an excerpt from the Times Colonist.

$100-million facelift set for Inner Harbour
Carolyn Heiman, Times Colonist
Published: Monday, August 13, 2007

Plans to redevelop Belleville Street call for a landmark hotel, a new terminal, however the Coho ferry needs to move. The Coho, which requires large harbour front parking lots to operate, consumes a large part of a small site and compromises public use and public access, said the report, called 'The Vision for Bellville'.

Jawl said it was not within the task force's mandate to look at relocation options for the aging Coho. Over the years, however, the topic of moving the car service has come up and relocation options have included Esquimalt and the Anacortes ferry terminal in Sidney.

Full Story available:
www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=df237179-12de-4fd8-916e-0a40d7d08175&k=35981

[BreannaF]

bryank said:

Random thoughts on the use of the Sidney terminal......

[/li][li]Sidney is 30km or so from Victoria. Even if the Inner Harbour port for the Coho somehow disappeared due to the land being too valuable or something, it would almost make sense to build a new dock somewhere closer to downtown Victoria. But I'm not counting on that happening. There's enough passenger-only traffic coming in through there anyway that there will always be some sort of transportation depot there. Are we going to drop off tourists in the thick of things, or 30km away? I didn't think so.[/quote]
Never say never, I guess......

ferryrider42 said:

A possible additional use for the Sidney ferry terminal proposed.

Something new at Esquimalt would seem to make more sense than using Sidney, from the standpoint of travel time from Port Angeles and proximity to downtown Victoria. But that's just an off the cuff guess.

One question about the Coho, though. It has that side loading door, and I haven't actually been on it since I was riding in the baby car seat, but will it fit in the Sidney dock? On which end of the trip does it use that side door -- if it's on the PA side then no worries, I suppose. It doesn't seem that there would be a fitting issue stern first at Sidney, but I dunno that for sure either. Anybody know for sure if it would even work?

[EGfleet]

bryank said:

bryank said:

Random thoughts on the use of the Sidney terminal......

[/li][li]Sidney is 30km or so from Victoria. Even if the Inner Harbour port for the Coho somehow disappeared due to the land being too valuable or something, it would almost make sense to build a new dock somewhere closer to downtown Victoria. But I'm not counting on that happening. There's enough passenger-only traffic coming in through there anyway that there will always be some sort of transportation depot there. Are we going to drop off tourists in the thick of things, or 30km away? I didn't think so.[/quote]
Never say never, I guess......

ferryrider42 said:

A possible additional use for the Sidney ferry terminal proposed.

Something new at Esquimalt would seem to make more sense than using Sidney, from the standpoint of travel time from Port Angeles and proximity to downtown Victoria. But that's just an off the cuff guess.

One question about the Coho, though. It has that side loading door, and I haven't actually been on it since I was riding in the baby car seat, but will it fit in the Sidney dock? On which end of the trip does it use that side door -- if it's on the PA side then no worries, I suppose. It doesn't seem that there would be a fitting issue stern first at Sidney, but I dunno that for sure either. Anybody know for sure if it would even work?
[/quote]

In its current configuration, no it wouldn't work. The ferry would have to be retro fitted to load from the bow...maybe ala the Chinook and lop off the front? But how feasible is that for a vessel rapidly approaching 50 years old?

And of course current law would forbid them from operating out of the Anacortes dock.


More on this today...it seems keeping the Coho in Victoria will cost 20 million:

www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=61b14ed0-2a91-41ee-9bb0-3b6eb30582df