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Post by Hardy on Jun 21, 2008 22:36:41 GMT -8
I would suspect that before the 4th year payments come due that there will be some refinancing that will take place, either in terms of bond issue or another source of funds. Don't forget that all the ancillary 'stuff' (food, gift shop, reservations, etc) generates a very high return on investment. Throw in sponsorship and advertising revenue (which can only increase in value as the population base grows).
Also don't discount that the operating costs of some of the oldest vessels in the fleet are currently being removed from the equation thru sales of the 4 boats. I don't think that there is anyone that disagrees that the operating costs of the new vessels is lower than that of the older vessels...
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Post by tempest on Jun 22, 2008 7:47:29 GMT -8
Let's face it, BC Ferries Corp or Services, no matter how you cut it or call it, had a lot of work to do in 2002 when the whole idea of privitization came up. They had a severely neglected fleet which was extremely long in the tooth and needed some major changes made. The corp had been badly neglected for years with the exception of the fast ferry investment, albeit foolhardy, but nevertheless, an investment made.
Fast forward. I believe the company did the right thing by putting Hahn in charge. I am extremely impressed with the man and always have been. The company have what appears to be a very competent and dedicated board. Where to now?
I believe the company is in a very difficult position. The Government has mandated what the fares can be and controls increases. While they are no longer controlled by the political whim, we have to be sympathize with the companys arms being tied in some instances.
1) Fares - The bulk of the travelling public want to do so pretty much at the same time. That's a given. How do airlines, particularly on their commuter and short hop runs, handle the situation. They DOUBLE the fares. Price will trigger market everytime. Just look at WestJet fares between Calgary and Edmonton. The general day to day fare is half what it is on the trips around the weekend. Why....divert traffic. If you want to go on Friday afternoon and are prepared to pay $120 vs $60 for a flight five hours earlier, that is your choice. With BCFS, the only way they can stimulate market is by halving their current posted price, ie the CoastSavers. What would any one of us do if we were going from Vancouver to Victoria at 5PM and had to pay $120 for me and my car, but could save half of that if we went at lets say noon or 9 pm? Its called 'redistributing' the loads. It works. They can't do that - it's against the act.
2) New ferries - Why did the Kuper cost $10M? When they started they had a boat identical to the Klitsa. Why did they need to create a Cadillac for that run when a Chevy would have done just fine. The Island Sky started out as a $32M vessel, one of which David Marshall, then VP stated, they couldn't afford. Hmm, when it was eventually built, it cost $53M? Huh??? How about the super C's. Has the crewing levels changed? I know TC probably wouldn't allow the additional passenger areas without extra crew.
3) Fuel consumption - Wheres all these fuel savings coming from. The company claims they're going to save all this money on fuel. How come the engineers claim the super C burns 7,000 litres a day more than a C class boat. What about the Cap and Cumberland? According to folks who worked on the HSQ and the Cap, fuel consumption on the route went from <1,800 ltrs/day to >7,000 ltres/day. That's progress? Hmmm
The company has always been split into 3 seperate business centres. 1) Major routes 2) Minor routes and 3) Northern Routes.
The northern and mid-coast have always been poor performers, particularly the mid-coast. It was such a bonanza for the company they chased Coast Ferries out of the business! Get real! The Northern runs are an economic development piece that the Government should continue to support wholeheartidly. I beleive they will do so.
The Majors have always supported the minors. Having said that, not enough to permit fleet renewal. That's a given. What has bothered me the most about the 'Act' is the fact that the Govt. demanded the disconnect. David Emerson was adament that, like the industry he came from (Canfor), every mill had to be it's own profit centre, at BCFS, every route had to be it's own profit centre. While the current formula is slightly washed out by bundling routes together, the principle is the same. In the marine business where I come from new equipment cannot, I repeat, CANNOT attract the rates it shoud based on it's initial capital investment. Hence, when Seaspan builds a new vessel, all the other vessels (generally long since paid for or signficantly written down) subsidize it.
Having said all this, one thing does not make sense. Why, on the minor routes are cost saving measures not being sought? Take for example, crewing. Why does the Cap and Cumberland require up to 12 crew, when the Skeena only requires 6, AND carries 150 more people. Why did they buy a boat that cost $200K and turn it into a $10M investment? These are places where the company has a lot to learn.
Year 4 is going to be interesting, particularly if numbers keep falling!
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jun 22, 2008 8:30:28 GMT -8
Lots to chew on Tempest. Thanks for the well though out commentary. Hahn is in a no win situation and I have always thought, "that is one job I would never want." some days maybe  . You point out some very valid points that are easy to forget in looking at the day to day stuff and specifics on the various routes and ships in the fleet. |
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 22, 2008 11:47:23 GMT -8
3) on fuel consumption: please remember that the Super Cs are much larger than the C class vessels and will consume more fuel over a regular C class vessel. Car comparison does not work in this case due to the fact there are no platform decks on the Super Cs or gallery decks whatsoever. They are Spirit sized considering their dimensions (7 meters shorter and about 1 meter wider). Now if you would like to work on a project to reduce fuel, I would like to know if installing electric turbines that are powered by the propeller shaft turning in order to produce electricity and re direct that electricity to power the electric motors and create a cycle of reusable energy.(just fantasizing here not saying this would work but it is an idea none the less  ) |
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Post by Alex on Jun 22, 2008 12:04:59 GMT -8
Now if you would like to work on a project to reduce fuel, I would like to know if installing electric turbines that are powered by the propeller shaft turning in order to produce electricity and re direct that electricity to power the electric motors and create a cycle of reusable energy.(just fantasizing here not saying this would work but it is an idea none the less ) Actually, you would use MORE fuel with this method, because each time you convert the energy you would lose some through friction, other losses. It's a good rule of thumb that if something sounds like an amazing way to have limitless energy or efficiency that no one thought of before...you're probably wrong, and your plan violates the 1st or 2nd laws of Thermodynamics. |
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Post by Alex on Jun 22, 2008 12:07:52 GMT -8
Hmm, my last post was a lot meaner than I intended. I hope I didn't offend you, it wasn't my intention...and if I did, I'm sorry. I'd be happy to discuss the topic in more detail if you're interested.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 22, 2008 12:36:49 GMT -8
No, it was just an idea that popped up, and is thermodynamics apart of physics?
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Post by Alex on Jun 22, 2008 15:09:27 GMT -8
No, it was just an idea that popped up, and is thermodynamics apart of physics? Yes it is a branch of physics. According to wikipedia, "in essence thermodynamics studies the movement of energy and how energy instills movement". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Jun 24, 2008 7:00:54 GMT -8
No, it was just an idea that popped up, and is thermodynamics apart of physics? Yes it is a branch of physics. According to wikipedia, "in essence thermodynamics studies the movement of energy and how energy instills movement". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThermodynamicsThe idea of capturing some of the lost energy and returning it to the system is intriguing to say the least. You can return the energy lost into the exhaust in several ways. Turbos use the waste heat to power a feedback loop...forcing more air and fuel into the cylinders, therefore, increasing the compression ratio and the efficiency. You can also use the same idea to drive an electrical generator to feed energy back into the system, similar to what Dan was thinking. Typically this isn't overly efficient due to the additional friction introduced in the exhaust flow, but it can be made to work. Yet another way to extract some of this energy is to duct air over a heat exchanger tied into the exhaust and cooling...you can create a low powered jet by doing this similar to later model P-51s. Interesting trivia ;D |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jun 24, 2008 7:25:32 GMT -8
Too bad we can't capture the waste hot air from politicians and turn it into useful energy . There was an article in the paper this last weekend I will try and source. It is all about a company that provides this type of equipment to companies that are notorious with wasting energy. Pulp mills and paper plants are one example. It the company can't afford the multi-million dollar price tag for the equipment, this group comes in and installs the equipment at their cost and then gets paid out of the energy savings. Kind of a lease out of the savings. I wonder how much savings could be had using turbo chargers and other energy recovery systems on BC Ferries. * found it www.thestar.com/article/447421 |
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Post by boardsailor on Jun 24, 2008 13:13:50 GMT -8
Almost all diesel engines used on BC Ferry vessels are turbocharged. Some have even two per engine. Those which do not have a turbochargers are non continuous duty engines like
emergency generator on Queen of Tsawwassen, Nanaimo and Burnaby.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Jun 24, 2008 15:25:13 GMT -8
You know that whine you hear on the Skeena? The one that gives her the nickname "screamer"? Those are the turbos on her engines.
Boardsailor is absolutely right, turbo chargers are used almost universally fleet wide. In fact, it is very difficult to find a modern continuous duty diesel engine that does not have a turbo on it.
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Post by DENelson83 on Jun 25, 2008 13:47:45 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 27, 2008 17:09:06 GMT -8
We've talked about bus service to Duke Point before, and here's something, but likely not what some were hoping for: ------------------------------ www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_central/nanaimonewsbulletin/news/22070994.htmlYVR more accessibleJune 27, 2008 Vancouver International Airport just got a whole lot closer for mid-Island residents thanks to a proposed bus service from Pacific Coach Lines. Beginning in mid-July if red tape can be cleared in time, PCL will offer bus links from downtown Nanaimo to YVR via Duke Point. “We’re hoping for mid-summer but there is still lots of government documentation to get through,” said Darian Tooley, spokeswoman for PCL. “But it’s imminent and when the service does begin we’ll have four trips daily in both directions.” Tooley said PCL saw a need to serve the North and Mid Island with a bus service to YVR. It already has one established from downtown Victoria to Vancouver International. She said even people looking to access points east of Vancouver by ground could benefit from the service. An introductory fare of $39 one way is likely until October when regular fares of $45 will be applied. ========================= |
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jun 27, 2008 17:40:31 GMT -8
The new bus/ferry service from Nanaimo to CYVR is a great idea for these bathtub mariners. Comox has jet service to points across Canada (I have a flight deck aviation DVD video with a WestJet segment to and from Comox included). The new service opens Nanaimo travelers to car-free access to flights to locations all around this planet of ours. Best wishes of success to PCL on this venture.
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Post by Hardy on Jun 30, 2008 21:38:15 GMT -8
The new bus/ferry service from Nanaimo to CYVR is a great idea for these bathtub mariners. Comox has jet service to points across Canada I've heard that Air Canada will suspend service out of Comox this fall due to budgetary reasons. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Jul 1, 2008 6:19:56 GMT -8
The Customer Satifaction Survey results for 2007 are now available. There has been a slight decrease in satifaction reported over the 2006 survey. It is intresting to note that the very satisfied rating dropped a significant amount overall. So now more people are just satisfied instead of being very satisfied  . www.bcferries.com/bcferries/faces/attachments?id=24496
BC FERRIES RELEASES RESULTS OF 2007 CUSTOMER SATISFACTION SURVEY 88 per cent of customers satisfied with BC Ferries service VICTORIA – BC Ferries released the results of its 2007 Customer Satisfaction Survey today, and overall, 88 per cent of customers report being either satisfied or very satisfied with their BC Ferries’ experience. Customers gave BC Ferries high scores in a number of key areas including: • Safety of ferry operations and loading and unloading • Staff in all areas • Usefulness of the website • Availability and cleanliness of seating areas • Highway signage • Variety/selection in onboard giftshops • Availability of tourist and travel information “This research is extremely valuable to BC Ferries as it helps us meet the needs and desires of our customers,” said Mike Corrigan, BC Ferries’ Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. “For instance, recently we’ve introduced Health Check approved menu items as direct result of our customers telling us that they want more healthy choices from our onboard food services.” The Customer Satisfaction Tracking study is designed to monitor customer’s views on various aspects of BC Ferries’ service. BC Ferries is committed to making improvements where customers have identified opportunities to do so. According to the survey, these areas include sailing frequency, clarity of public address system and length of time in line for food services. A total of 13,730 interviews were conducted onboard eight different routes, with 5,166 questionnaires completed and returned by mail to an independent research firm. A copy of the 2007 Customer Satisfaction Tracking report is available at www.bcferries.com/about/More_Information.html#more
Actually, here is the direct link to the survey results: www.bcferries.com/files/AboutBCF/cst/PUBLIC_REPORT_CST_2007_Final.pdf |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 1, 2008 14:23:07 GMT -8
Yes Hardy as part of the current plan to layoff 2,000 employees, and cut some routes this is possible. There are all sorts of rumours going around. Some cuts have been announced and some are still unknown. AC is trying to downgrade as many flights as possible to smaller aircraft and cut frequency. This means a route that isn't filling the smallest Air Canada aircraft is being downgraded to Jazz or in the case of BC one of the smaller services like Central Mountain Air or others. Competitors like Pacific Coastal and HarbourAir etc. may be quite happy to hear this if it is true. Downside is no Aeroplan Points. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 5, 2008 22:24:32 GMT -8
News story re Galiano. ===================== www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=6430b3a0-7921-49e7-811e-28dd5333d6f8Upset passengers delay B.C. ferry RCMP called in as foot and vehicle passengers block ramp Vancouver Sun Saturday, July 05, 2008 GALIANO ISLAND - The last sailing off Galiano Island this evening was delayed by half an hour after a group of passengers blocked the ramp of the Queen of Nanaimo after being told they couldn't board because the ferry was already full. Between 30 and 50 foot and vehicle passengers refused to leave the ramp of the Queen of Nanaimo ferry just before its scheduled 5:55 p.m. sailing to Tsawwassen, BC Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall said. The ferry was berthed at Sturdies Bay. "We had no room," she said. "We had to call in the RCMP because they wouldn't leave the ramp." Under its licensing regulations, the ferry is only allowed to carry 584 passengers. This is to ensure that all passengers would have access to lifesaving equipment should the ferry have to be evacuated in an emergency, Marshall said. She said she was not aware of other situations where people have blocked the ramp because they were not allowed to board. Those left behind have the option of taking a ferry to Swartz Bay or Saltspring tonight or remaining on Galiano Island. Marshall noted the route between Galiano and Tsawwassen is reservable yet it was not fully subscribed. © Vancouver Sun ======================= I'm wondering if the real reasons for the protest / civil-disobedience is the current issue of high-fares, and the high-emotion from the July 4th various protest events. It sounds like a case of emotion spill-over from one issue to a new non-related trigger point. |
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Post by Curtis on Jul 5, 2008 22:48:31 GMT -8
They should have just walked away complaining. Might have got some free sailings out of it. Although, I can understand why they would be angry since they were foot passengers that didn't get on the Boat. Maybe BC Ferries should be taking note of this so they can have things ready to let extra passengers aboard for passenger liscense overloads. Of course on full liscense it wouldn't work.
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Post by Neil on Jul 5, 2008 23:06:43 GMT -8
Perhaps there's been a history of BC Ferries staff letting Saltspring and Mayne customers fill the boat, while Galiano people get left behind because they're the last stop before Tsawwassen. If so, I can understand their anger.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 5, 2008 23:25:01 GMT -8
That case was only a B-license so they could have had more crew. They should note Galiano is a big day trip destination for people out of Tsawwassen and if full they should notify customers to get a through fare via Swartz Bay to get to Tsawwassen. A-license is simply necessary with only one boat running Tsawwassen-SGI currently.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Jul 6, 2008 21:29:24 GMT -8
Full license capacity for the Nanny is 1163 (pax and crew). If the capacity that night was only 584, they definitely weren't running on a full license.
I wonder why the short crew? It was a busy summer weekend, you'd think if they were to run a full boat any time during the year, that should have been the time.
Unless they were short crew because somebody called in sick. If that's the case, why didn't they say so? Usually people understand and can empathize with something like that.
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Post by Hardy on Jul 8, 2008 0:18:27 GMT -8
Full license capacity for the Nanny is 1163 (pax and crew). If the capacity that night was only 584, they definitely weren't running on a full license. Is that really the difference between a "B" and an "A" license? Or were they running at something LOWER than that even? That seems like a HUGE disparity. I agree with CM101's post that when they are running without Rte-9A that they should be running an increased license on Rte-9 by default (IE: shoving the crew that would have been on -9A onto -9 to run the increased license!!!) It is therefore farcical for them to claim that they did not have enough crew available, as they would then not be able to run both Rtes-9/-9A if that was indeed the case! However, -9A was delayed due to refits/repairs taking too long, not due to a crewing shortage. I smell something VERY VERY rotten about Fort Street. All that aside, can the people that work at the terminal NOT COUNT? If they would have done a simple head count before the Nanny even ever arrived, they would have already KNOWN IN ADVANCE that there was a potential overload and a potential problem!! If they were unable to facilitate passage of all the pax due to running on a lower-license, then they should have AT LEAST informed the passengers that were queued up that there was this problem and INFORMED them of their alternatives and options. INFORMED. INFORMED. GIVE THE PEOPLE INFORMATION!!! That way at least they could have tried to make connections via a THROUGHFARE at SWB (I am not familiar enough with the SGI schedules to know if that would have even been a possibility at that point!), or at least helped the passengers out with determining WHO had priority in boarding (IE: if some people had the option to NOT travel on that last sailing - those without fixed timetables that could travel "standby" per se, or who would not be too inconvenienced by taking a later/next day sailing. I am sure that there were a lot of people that missed other travel connections on the Tsawwassen side due to this). Anyways, the main rant of mine is that this situation could have been handled in a much more civilized and professional manner by BCFS. It harkens me back to when I became an "Involuntary Resident" of Pender Island during the last ferry strike - I got struck on Pender with a truck for 3-days during that strike, and it ran me over $500 in additional costs, never mind missing work/wages. |
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Post by Mike C on Jul 8, 2008 14:44:26 GMT -8
I was a victim of this in May of this year, on the Galiano adventure.
I of course, did not have a fixed schedule and was able to make it to SWB with a ThruFare to Tsawwassen, arriving at Tsawwassen Terminal 2.5 hours later. However, there were people at Sturdies Bay who had to miss their flight because they did not make it onboard.
As frustrated as I was, there really wasn't anything we could do - it was off to Swartz Bay, or you were left on Galiano. Those were your two choices. And, in my case, I had to act fast and think fast, since the ferry to SWB was already in the dock.
Also, the Queen of Tsawwassen was doing Route 9 that particular day. As much as I love the Queen of Tsawwassen (and most of us are going to hate me for saying this) but after experiencing what I experienced, I would say that having a ferry that small on a route that is subject to overloads, is quite unacceptable. I can't imagine what it would have been like if I had a vehicle (I was on my bike). I would likely be stuck on the last sailing of the night, and stayed overnight at a hotel in Victoria.
Anyway, I agree with Hardy. The situation was, and still is handled poorly by BC Ferry Service.
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