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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2007 8:48:12 GMT -8
Posted by Retro on Yesterday at 5:30pm
Sept 8, 2007, 7:39am, Flugel Horn wrote: Sept 8, 2007, 12:47am, John H wrote:Isn't it ironic that we've been getting better information/photos/video from Germany than we have from a shipyard in our own backyard?
It seems that with BC shipyards, you've got to know someone in the Union, in order to get any information. A "closed shop" in more ways than one? But of course this has nothing to do with management. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the Sea Launch was at the dry dock, Employees were not allowed to take cameras and cell phones on the job with them. I think that rule is still in effect. (this would be a Management directive, not a Union one.) After all this is in the Graving dock, which is Federally owned, and they are right across the water from the Navy Boats. " Security reasons," to put it bluntly. Hubby wanted so much to take a picture of the Sea Launch.
From what I have heard, the I-boat construction here is moving along quite nicely. Hubby has seen the bridge unit and it looks very similar to the drawings on this site. It should all be coming together within the next few months. I will keep you posted.
For the person who wanted to know if the Fast Cats were built here in the same shop. The answer is no, they were built a Point Hope Shipyards. Just across the street from the princess Mary Restaurant. That is in the upper inner harbor, between the Point Ellice and Bay Street Bridges.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 19, 2007 9:15:25 GMT -8
Thanks ShipDaughterWife for this, and previous updates. You are one of the few regular sources of info on this new ship. ================= ps: to clarify my union "closed shop" earlier comment: - This was motivated by the fact that the only people that could provide info were people who knew workers, or who where workers, or who have access to the "employee section" of the website....as noted below. ie. Here's reply #75 from this here thread: I had unrealistic expectations re this matter, as on 2nd glance it is silly for me to expect that a private worksite should be broadcasting a picture of it's workplace to the entire web. Yep, I lost the reality-grip there, re my expectation to see a live webcam of the shipyard worksite. However, I still think it's legit for us to expect that the shipyard or union should be better publicizing this local newbuild work. It really is true that you have to know someone in the Union or in Management in order to know anything about this newbuild's progress. And since Management in these companies is usually communicating through official spin-doctored channels, it's usually the workers/union where we get the basic progress info from. I don't need to see the workers in BC on a webcam walking to the outdoor urinal (not that that's a big draw for the Flensburger webcam....I hope not), but I would like to see some prideful "look what we're building here in BC" information released from the shipbuilding industry (union & mgmt, as they both depend on exposure of their abilities). To me, this lack of promotion/publicity of this local newbuild project is puzzling. This issue is actually more interesting to me than the new ship itself.
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Mirrlees
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Post by Mirrlees on Sept 19, 2007 22:51:57 GMT -8
It seems a little weird that the shipbulders union criticised about the Coastals being built in Germany instead of here in B.C. and, on the other hand, there was no mention of the I-class.
One would think that building a new ship for BCFS; the union would want the publicity surrounding it's construction "out there" so they could get a foot in the door to bid and win contracts for all the "minor" ships needing replacement.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 20, 2007 9:22:28 GMT -8
Maybe we're making too much of the public relations aspect of this story.
Flensburger doesn't win contracts because they've got a snappy website for the public to look at. Likewise, just because local yards don't have a high profile public presence doesn't mean that they're not doing everything they can to win work. Contracts are won or lost based on what goes on in the tendering and bidding process, not by the kind of visibility yards have on the internet or in the press.
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Post by Retrovision on Sept 20, 2007 10:47:00 GMT -8
As with politics, which this is fueled by, publicity goes a long way. Germany's FSG has live webcams, North Vancouver's WMG doesn't; who do I think the people of British Columbia, the average voter, are going to think is putting more effort into the process? Germany's FSG. We all know how fickle the BC electorate is - we're world-renowned for our lack of true loyalty - and this should make it obvious that yes, flashy websites, etc., etc., do make a difference as the electorate gets accross to the polititians, in whatever way, which they prefer and, as politics goes, our leaders follow what that sensationalism motivates us to believe.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 20, 2007 14:43:09 GMT -8
As with politics, which this is fueled by, publicity goes a long way. Germany's FSG has live webcams, North Vancouver's WMG doesn't; who do I think the people of British Columbia, the average voter, are going to think is putting more effort into the process? Germany's FSG. We all know how fickle the BC electorate is - we're world-renowned for our lack of true loyalty - and this should make it obvious that yes, flashy websites, etc., etc., do make a difference as the electorate gets accross to the polititians, in whatever way, which they prefer and, as politics goes, our leaders follow what that sensationalism motivates us to believe. i think that there is far more to it than that, these vessels could not be built here in the time and budget allowed and still retain quality which after the test of time is an important factor to the taxpayers.i wish we could but the fact is our shipbuilding industry was killed in the mid 80`s and after several attempts to revive it, it still is only functioning on a repair driven basis, there simply aren`t enough personnel to build 4 vessels at a time look at the cr, it was almost fully built in the time it took van drydock just to re-fit the alberni [which was back in for repairs a month later]it was interesting to hear[union leader] george macpherson say that wmg was prepared to build the super c`s when they are currently out sourcing[to asian yards]their own container vessel builds
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 20, 2007 16:42:26 GMT -8
As with politics, which this is fueled by, publicity goes a long way. Germany's FSG has live webcams, North Vancouver's WMG doesn't; who do I think the people of British Columbia, the average voter, are going to think is putting more effort into the process? Germany's FSG. We all know how fickle the BC electorate is - we're world-renowned for our lack of true loyalty - and this should make it obvious that yes, flashy websites, etc., etc., do make a difference as the electorate gets accross to the polititians, in whatever way, which they prefer and, as politics goes, our leaders follow what that sensationalism motivates us to believe. You know those connect-the-dot drawings? Well... I'm trying to draw a line from, (1) BC having 'fickle' voters (and being world-renowned for it), to (2), those voters thus being gullible for flashy, sensationalist websites, to (3) those voters then clamoring to their elected representatives, and (4), those representatives putting the muscle on BC Ferries to choose Flensburger, partly because of their constituents' appraisal of the relative merits of FSG's site over that of a local yard. And, I gotta tell you, I can't quite do it. Outside of this forum, if you asked Joe Voter what he thinks of FSG's website compared to the I-class firm's, and what those sites say about the competence of either party, I imagine that 99 times out of 100 you'll be met with a blank stare. BC Ferries will continue to sign newbuild contracts with the lowest qualified bidder, without regard to the effect on the over all health of BC's economy, and definitely without regard to what the BC public thinks of the bidders' public profile.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 20, 2007 17:40:54 GMT -8
Flensburger doesn't win contracts because they've got a snappy website for the public to look at. Likewise, just because local yards don't have a high profile public presence doesn't mean that they're not doing everything they can to win work. Contracts are won or lost based on what goes on in the tendering and bidding process, not by the kind of visibility yards have on the internet or in the press. Follow-up comments, using my logic-ladder (from top to bottom): - Currently, BC Ferries awards newbuild contracts based mainly on price, and not to favour the local yard. - Therefore, if a BC Yard is to win a contract, it needs to win on price, and it needs to compete with European & Asian yards, which may have the advantage of years of better Gov't support. - For BC Yards to win more contracts, they need to be competitive - To be competitive, they need an influx of Gov't funding, tax breaks and other support from Senior and Local Gov'ts. - To get all levels of Gov't to act, the shipyard and it's capabilities and cause need to be noticed by Gov't. - To be get what you want from Gov't, you have to play their game. And that game is Politics. - And lobbying is part of politics. - And self-promotion is part of lobbying. - And website, public comments, and general displays of pride are part of self-promotion. I suppose that the website issue is just an indicator of the lack of positive promotion of BC Shipbuilding. It seems that the face of BC Shipbuilding, Mr. George MacPherson (union president), only ever speaks of bad news.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 20, 2007 22:21:43 GMT -8
Flugel Horn: With respect, I'm afraid there's one rung of your logic ladder that I wouldn't dare put any weight on- the one about government funding. Ain't gonna happen. No amount of lobbying or fancy pants websites or input from the small segment of the public inclined to support intervention will shake the set attitude that our senior governments have toward the ship building industry. Even if we elected provincial and federal NDP governments (preceding the appearance of a big, pink easter bunny), we might find that international trade agreements forbid government assistance. And as for George MacPherson's attitude, well, when the person sitting beside you is gobbling all the cake, are you suppose to scoop what you can off the floor and say, "Gee, what tasty crumbs"?
I'm sure that the unionized shipyard workers will take pride in the I- vessel they produce, but that pride, no matter how articulately it is expressed, will count for squat when the next contract comes up.
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Post by Retrovision on Sept 20, 2007 22:37:11 GMT -8
Just to clarify before I go through recent posts, I do not think that in their current form BC shipyards would be capable of delivering even one Coastal Class vessel, let alone on time or more than one, but I also believe that this is a direct result of decisions made in the past by our provincial government, by whatever party or whatever self proclaimed king >COUGHclarkCOUGH< leader that attempts to put the final nail in the coffin. Late edit: I guess that there isn't much for me to add but clarify that I've never claimed nor thought that BC yards are currently capable, but that doesn't mean that we can't invest in and revive what was once a great shipbuilding industry in our province. An ER doctor doesn't give up that easy and nor should we. 'I' Class vessels are a good starting point. Though I might use rhetoric a bit too freely on occasion ( ), lately I've seen far more read into my comments than I've ever actually typed.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 21, 2007 10:07:31 GMT -8
Retro: it is simply not true that a BC shipyard could not build a super-C ferry. Remember, one of the bids in the pre-qualification phase came from a Canadian yard, and was "assessed compliant and evaluated further", by BC Ferries. Union head George MacPherson has also firmly argued that Canadian workers could have done the job, with guarantees.
Canadian yards were not part of the final bidding process, and I would agree that there is no way that three ships could have been produced here in the time they are being built in Germany.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 21, 2007 10:15:17 GMT -8
Just to clarify before I go through recent posts, I do not think that in their current form BC shipyards would be capable of delivering even one Coastal Class vessel, let alone on time or more than one, but I also believe that this is a direct result of decisions made in the past by our provincial government, by whatever party or whatever self proclaimed king >COUGHclarkCOUGH< leader that attempts to put the final nail in the coffin. Late edit: I guess that there isn't much for me to add but clarify that I've never claimed nor thought that BC yards are currently capable, but that doesn't mean that we can't invest in and revive what was once a great shipbuilding industry in our province. An ER doctor doesn't give up that easy and nor should we. 'I' Class vessels are a good starting point. Though I might use rhetoric a bit too freely on occasion ( ), lately I've seen far more read into my comments than I've ever actually typed. In relation to the idea of the contract tendering process favoring particular aspects of the bid, ie: the price tag, you could make the point that, despite the fact that it may be completely partisan, the government has a responsibility to provide for its own citizens. This means, that there should at least be a little bit more of a focus on trying to do work at home, keeping jobs in B.C. and all that jazz... don't come down on me too hard for this. And I also know the fact that BCFS is technically a private corporation lets them choose to buy ships from whomever they want, but this seems to be the same can of worms we always open. It doesn't really seem right now that the government wants to get involved either (other than giving subsidies under the table), but even so, they might have shown some sense in the past and at least acted like they were trying to keep a shipbuilding industry in B.C. rather than freaking out about the fast-cat folly and wholesale abandoning our own shipyards. So as far as loyalty goes, is B.C. more renowned for voters being disloyal by frequent polarized shifts in public opinion at the polls, or because successive provincial governments are consistently disloyal to the voters that elected them and eventually lose their standing through their own fault. The key points of his lost post are reviving the shipbuilding industry in B.C. by investing in it. Great! Now we just need to find someone who's willing.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 21, 2007 10:35:35 GMT -8
Both the provincial Liberals, and BC Ferries, have been 'dining out' on the fastcat story for a long time. Whenever anyone talks about shortcomings in our ferry system, Hahn, Campbell, or Falcon scream "FASTCATS!". They've sucked everyone into believing that Glen Clark is to blame for everything bad that ever happened to our ferries, but some simple math tells you that in the 47 years of BC Ferries' existence, someone other than the NDP has been in power for 34 of them.
Our ship building industry has been in decline since the early sixties, when federal subsidy programs were eliminated, while overseas yards were being supported by their governments. Now, the yards seem to have lowered their sights to the smaller jobs and refit work. A successful 'I' will at least keep them in the picture.
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Post by ferryking on Sept 21, 2007 10:45:08 GMT -8
So to get this straight FSG was selected only on the basis...of the way the wind was blowing on the tender closing day...
i am sorry but if Canadian Ship Builders could be building the Super 'C's they would be. For whatever reason...please pick one or more or make up your own...price, capacity of workforce, technical knowledge, over confidence, etc...these ships were contracted to the bidder who put the best "package" together and made sure that it wasn't a plan full of holes...now i am not saying a Canadian ship builder couldn't put a package together but somewhere in the bidding system they did not try to make sure they were the yard of 'choice' rather than a yard of 'convenience'.
this note isn't directed an anyone on this forum...just my thoughts.
please correct me if i am wrong, as i am not sure...isn't the 'Canadian' shipbuilder in question, WMG an American entity.
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Post by Balfour on Sept 21, 2007 11:50:11 GMT -8
An American Entity perhaps, but still being staffed by people who live here.
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Post by Retrovision on Sept 21, 2007 11:56:12 GMT -8
Retro: it is simply not true that a BC shipyard could not build a super-C ferry. Remember, one of the bids in the pre-qualification phase came from a Canadian yard, and was "assessed compliant and evaluated further", by BC Ferries. Union head George MacPherson has also firmly argued that Canadian workers could have done the job, with guarantees. That's my mis-type then. I should have qualified those comments by adding "with guarantees", as in on time and/or on budget such as FSG was able to have written into the contract.
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Post by ferryking on Sept 21, 2007 12:16:40 GMT -8
An American Entity perhaps, but still being staffed by people who live here. i actually meant to re edit my post with this same info...thanks. i hadn't forgotten about the local workers i was more curious where the big profit dollars ended up.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 21, 2007 21:55:14 GMT -8
The fact is that in the 1990's we built in BC the two Spirit ferries. They were built on time, and on budget. They are also significantly larger vessels then the Super 'C's.
I simply do not buy the line that these new vessels could not have been built here. No doubt the cost to build would have been higher and time required longer. But the savings on federal duties, along with the benefits to BC's economy, would most certainly have made it worth doing. If only our current crop of political leaders had the vision of WAC Bennett they would understand this.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Sept 23, 2007 14:36:54 GMT -8
Not to mention, the province of BC would have gotten a good chunk of the money spent on the ferries back in the form of income tax from the workers. As it is now, that money is going to the German government, and we will never see it again.
One think to remember, is that Yarrows was still open when the spirits were being built. That being said, I think that BC shipyards do have the capability to build these ships. Probably not in the same time frame, but they could build them. If the government (federal and provincial) had kept the subsidies up, like the European governments, there would be no question, these ships would be sitting in Vancouver right now instead of Flensburg.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 23, 2007 15:00:06 GMT -8
Not to mention, the province of BC would have gotten a good chunk of the money spent on the ferries back in the form of income tax from the workers. As it is now, that money is going to the German government, and we will never see it again. One think to remember, is that Yarrows was still open when the spirits were being built. That being said, I think that BC shipyards do have the capability to build these ships. Probably not in the same time frame, but they could build them. If the government (federal and provincial) had kept the subsidies up, like the European governments, there would be no question, these ships would be sitting in Vancouver right now instead of Flensburg. i will ask this question once again..................instead of just skewering b.c. ferries all the time......... why did WMG also choose to build seaspans new container ships offshore? i`ll tell you why because the asian yards are bigger,cheaper and faster just like the ones in europe, so what we should really ask ourselves is what can b.c. do to gain a significant foothold in this industry again???
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Sept 23, 2007 15:37:20 GMT -8
I will point out that most Asian shipyards have questionable environmental practices, and the quality of build isn't nearly what comes out of europe or even North America. It's like comparing Hyundia (which also owns one of Korea's biggest shipyards) to BMW or Mercedes.
In order to get BC into heavy shipbuilding again, we need to do one of 2 things:
1. relax environmental and human rights practices so that we can compete on the same grounds as Asian yards (highly not-recommended)
2. increase government subsidies so that we can compete on the same grounds as European yards.
I think option 2 is what most people in BC would like.
Just my 2 cents
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on Sept 23, 2007 15:45:47 GMT -8
And dont forget we have built 5 doubble ender ships be for and they have not!!!!!!
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on Sept 23, 2007 15:55:26 GMT -8
The fact is that in the 1990's we built in BC the two Spirit ferries. They were built on time, and on budget. They are also significantly larger vessels then the Super 'C's. I simply do not buy the line that these new vessels could not have been built here. No doubt the cost to build would have been higher and time required longer. But the savings on federal duties, along with the benefits to BC's economy, would most certainly have made it worth doing. If only our current crop of political leaders had the vision of WAC Bennett they would understand this. That is so true you took the words right out of my mouth.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 23, 2007 16:54:16 GMT -8
And dont forget we have built 5 doubble ender ships be for and they have not!!!!!! yes ,that`s true we did all that and ice breakers [MARTHA L. BLACK AND THE GEORGE PEARKES]too but now the yards that those double enders and coast gaurd vessels slid into the pacific from are the site of condominium development ,i wonder how this happened given that official port policy is "marine use first" can anybody shed some light on this abrupt shift in policy??
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 23, 2007 16:58:42 GMT -8
I will point out that most Asian shipyards have questionable environmental practices, and the quality of build isn't nearly what comes out of europe or even North America. It's like comparing Hyundia (which also owns one of Korea's biggest shipyards) to BMW or Mercedes. In order to get BC into heavy shipbuilding again, we need to do one of 2 things: 1. relax environmental and human rights practices so that we can compete on the same grounds as Asian yards (highly not-recommended) 2. increase government subsidies so that we can compete on the same grounds as European yards. I think option 2 is what most people in BC would like. Just my 2 cents the point i was attempting to make was that it seems like wmg is crying foul about the ferries on one hand while doing exactly the same thing in as you say at a more questionable[than flensburg]shipyard?
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