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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 15:06:44 GMT -8
I was wondering if it would be possible to substitute bright flashing lights, that'll reflect off the surface of the water and the surrounding terrain, in place of horns at night, so as not to cause too much of a disturbance to surrounding residents and wildlife when departing the terminal or approaching turns. This might be an idea for running ferries late at night.
Would Transport Canada approve of it?
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Post by Canucks on May 29, 2008 15:40:09 GMT -8
Although it may reduce noise I can see a few problems with lights:
1. If the water was really choppy it probably wouldn't reflect light well.
2. Boats could confuse it for a navigational light.
3. You couldn't see it in the fog or around a corner.
4. A horn is not only used to warn other boats but for that boat to listen to the echo's for surrounding land (I know there is radar but hey what if it breaks.)
5. Horns are way cooler then lights! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2008 15:49:18 GMT -8
Lights only work within a line of sight, and you also have to consider diffusion of light in foggy conditions.
Terminals have many light fixtures and the intent would be lost.
Also unless the light is an artificial sun (huge candlepower) the light wouldn't be much use.
Besides, what's cooler:
the sound of a click that can barely be heard on the bridge, or
a loud "GWAAAAN. GWAAAN. GWAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!" from a traditional BC Ferries ship's horn? ;D
Transport Canada (and international regulations) require audible signals when a large ship is to go astern as to ensure that other ships nearby know what is happening.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on May 29, 2008 15:51:08 GMT -8
I have mentioned this in other threads too, but I'm going to say it again:
BCF, and other operators, don't stop operations at night because the horns are too loud. There is simply no substantial demand to run the ships late at night. When there is a demand, such as a late night hockey game, BCF does run a late sailing, and even then they barely fill up to 50%.
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 16:02:23 GMT -8
Although it may reduce noise I can see a few problems with lights: 1. If the water was really choppy it probably wouldn't reflect light well. 2. Boats could confuse it for a navigational light. 3. You couldn't see it in the fog or around a corner. 4. A horn is not only used to warn other boats but for that boat to listen to the echo's for surrounding land (I know there is radar but hey what if it breaks.) 5. Horns are way cooler then lights! ;D 1. You couldn't see it reflected on the waves/ripples? 2. Set standards in terms of colour/intensity/frequency of flash. 3. Slow down in adverse conditions. 4. Humans aren't dolphins nor bats. They can't "see" with sound. You'd need sound signals outside the human audible range for sound wavelengths short enough to pinpoint objects with. 5. They have their time and place. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 16:04:42 GMT -8
I have mentioned this in other threads too, but I'm going to say it again: BCF, and other operators, don't stop operations at night because the horns are too loud. There is simply no substantial demand to run the ships late at night. When there is a demand, such as a late night hockey game, BCF does run a late sailing, and even then they barely fill up to 50%. They could run smaller vessels during those times, like maybe use the Bowen Island vessel to run Route 2, or the Gulf Islands ships to run Route 1 during the wee hours of the night. |
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Post by Canucks on May 29, 2008 16:09:54 GMT -8
Although it may reduce noise I can see a few problems with lights: 1. If the water was really choppy it probably wouldn't reflect light well. 2. Boats could confuse it for a navigational light. 3. You couldn't see it in the fog or around a corner. 4. A horn is not only used to warn other boats but for that boat to listen to the echo's for surrounding land (I know there is radar but hey what if it breaks.) 5. Horns are way cooler then lights! ;D 1. You couldn't see it reflected on the waves/ripples? 2. Set standards in terms of colour/intensity/frequency of flash. 3. Slow down in adverse conditions. 4. Humans aren't dolphins nor bats. They can't "see" with sound. You'd need sound signals outside the human audible range for sound wavelengths short enough to pinpoint objects with. 5. They have their time and place. What I meant with the choppy water is that water refracts light so it would send it in all directions confusing ships far away. I would agree with #2 and #4 is probably irrelevant. Another point to add after reading the "Our Ferries Our Horns" Thread is that boats use horns to communicate so a light would be unable to achieve that if the boat was behind wanting to overtake them. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 29, 2008 16:17:54 GMT -8
Lights only work within a line of sight, and you also have to consider diffusion of light in foggy conditions. Terminals have many light fixtures and the intent would be lost. Also unless the light is an artificial sun (huge candlepower) the light wouldn't be much use. Besides, what's cooler: the sound of a click that can barely be heard on the bridge, or a loud "GWAAAAN. GWAAAN. GWAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!" from a traditional BC Ferries ship's horn? ;D Transport Canada (and international regulations) require audible signals when a large ship is to go astern as to ensure that other ships nearby know what is happening. lol...a little correction...the diffusion of light would create night blindness as the water droplets (fog) scatter light back toward the source...absorption of the light by the water droplets would limit the line of sight...now that said, check out this website. At 500,000 watts, this lamp is the brightest continuous light source ever developed. When we added the capacitor banks to it, we were able to produce instantaneous brightnesses in the 100-150 MW (200kJ input over 1 ms and including conversion losses) range...not as bright as is possible with lasers, but far in excess of pretty much any other light source available! One of the prototypes outputting 150kW was set up near YVR and was readily visible 20 - 25 miles away. And the whole system fits into a 2m x 2m x 2.5m box. lol...geek aside  ;D... |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 16:19:47 GMT -8
What I meant with the choppy water is that water refracts light so it would send it in all directions confusing ships far away. It should at least tell them to slow down and look out. Thread is that boats use horns to communicate so a light would be unable to achieve that if the boat was behind wanting to overtake them. They could have something that's analogous to the headlights and taillights of a car. Maybe even the turn signal. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 16:26:49 GMT -8
lol...a little correction...the diffusion of light would create night blindness as the water droplets (fog) scatter light back toward the source...absorption of the light by the water droplets would limit the line of sight... Therefore you flash, instead of leaving the light on continuously. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 29, 2008 17:00:36 GMT -8
lol...a little correction...the diffusion of light would create night blindness as the water droplets (fog) scatter light back toward the source...absorption of the light by the water droplets would limit the line of sight... Therefore you flash, instead of leaving the light on continuously. ummm, this would happen whether or not you were flashing the light... |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 17:14:05 GMT -8
Therefore you flash, instead of leaving the light on continuously. ummm, this would happen whether or not you were flashing the light... That's why you look during the intervals between the flashes. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 29, 2008 17:28:11 GMT -8
ummm, this would happen whether or not you were flashing the light... That's why you look during the intervals between the flashes. What were you thinking...something like, blink, look, blink, look and repeat? |
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 29, 2008 17:38:58 GMT -8
Ruddernut we know you have said you like to argue but really. Do you keep score to see how far you can argue something before it peters out? If you can`t see, you can`t see. A high intensity light won`t help a small boat owner that is moving slowly with a ferry bearing down on them. Sound carries a long way over water. It is quite the efficient way of communicating. Not only will the ferry have the effect of the light bounce back at them, but they will mow down the boat. There is a reason bells are still used on buoys along with lights even in this age of GPS Beeping. Unfortunately a lot are now electronic, powered by solar. I have a Buoy Bell from Maine turned into a wind chime that sounds great. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 17:43:35 GMT -8
That's why you look during the intervals between the flashes. What were you thinking...something like, blink, look, blink, look and repeat? Think about when you flash your high beam to oncoming drivers to warn them of a speed trap up ahead. You flash briefly to signal to them, without leaving it on continuously and blinding them into running off the side of the road. A good series of flashes, seen reflected off both the water surface and the surrounding islands should signal to them that a boat is coming, without either blinding yourself nor the oncoming boat. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 29, 2008 17:54:13 GMT -8
Ruddernut we know you have said you like to argue but really. Do you keep score to see how far you can argue something before it peters out? If you can`t see, you can`t see. A high intensity light won`t help a small boat owner that is moving slowly with a ferry bearing down on them. Sound carries a long way over water. It is quite the efficient way of communicating. Not only will the ferry have the effect of the light bounce back at them, but they will mow down the boat. There is a reason bells are still used on buoys along with lights even in this age of GPS Beeping. Unfortunately a lot are now electronic, powered by solar. I have a Buoy Bell from Maine turned into a wind chime that sounds great. 1. Light travels much faster than sound. 2. A light source is easier to pinpoint than a sound source. 3. All parties should slow down at night or in any conditions of limited visibility for adequate precaution. 4. You shouldn't be operating a small boat out in the open water in the middle of the night, especially in the path of a big ferry. 5. In the event of an emergency...BLOW THE FRICKING HORN! In any case, I'd rather have a deaf person operate a car or a boat than a blind person. |
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 29, 2008 18:18:57 GMT -8
So why do lighthouses that also have a powerful light for use in clear weather also sound a fog horn? Why do buoys have bells? Keeping on repeating lights are better does nothing to counter the physics involved.
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Post by BreannaF on May 29, 2008 18:20:50 GMT -8
Or............. we could just keep it the way it is and properly use horns as expected in the regulations. It's worked all over the world now for at least a couple of years now  , and it seems to be working just fine. By the way, I really laughed at the part where boats could use turn signals to signal their intentions!  Ruddernut........ dude............ you do realize that April Fools Day is long past now, don't you? |
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Post by Scott on May 29, 2008 18:24:47 GMT -8
I think this topic has reached it's full potential:)
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;D...
, and it seems to be working just fine.
