Don't Bother BC Ferries about Finances!

[poeticlives]

Good Evening All,

My good friend Jordan has invited me (QUITE persistently) onto this forum, especially in light of a story I recounted to him today, which I shall do now to you.

Recently, my mum and great aunt took a trip on BC Ferries to Victoria's memorable Bouchard Gardens (outrageously, they didn't care to take note of the ship either way! haha).

On the way they, they encountered a man on contract by BC Ferries to sort out their finances.

His opinion?

Well, it is that BC Ferries has got to change the way it does business, and that all is not well in the least. He found this out when he wanted to bring his five year old son from England to visit him on the West Coast.

He spoke to the BC Ferries execs about this, and they referred him to a particular preferred travel agent, which went on to quote a round-trip cost of $2500.

"Are you serious?" he asked.

The answer was Yes, so he contacted those money-fritting execs again, reporting this unbelievable sum to bring a five year old over from the U.K.

"If I'm going to sort BC Ferries' finances out, this is the FIRST thing I'm going to change."

In response from the corporation, he received a letter, which read, "Don't bother the travel agent."

Again, he reacted with, "Excuse me?"

As did I!

Who is this travel agent exactly? What's so diffucult about firing them? I hate to think, but wouldn't be surprised, at corporate chumminess going on with BC Ferries and friends in other firms.

So... tightening up the financial ship? Make some firings, and so plug the leaks probably.

My brother recently found a way to get to Glasgow Scotland and back for under $1000- I know because I JUST asked him this second. He said as long as he booked in advance.- which travel agents should do for you I suppose.

And we're talking $2500 for a five year old.

So this agernt's been milking the BC Ferries cow for a while, happily soaking up revenues thrown overboard.

Fire the BC Ferries execs associated with this agent, who throw money away so liberally, then fire the agent.

Problem solved!

[Neil]

An amusing anecdote, but I really doubt that 'BC Ferries execs' have any contract to refer unsuspecting tourists to unscrupulous travel agents. Sounds like the beginning of one of those 'urban legends'.

[poeticlives]

No, indeed BC Ferries don't have contracts with tourists.

It'd be much more likely for BC Ferries to solicit people, like this fellow, to do work for them, i.e., not a tourist, like I stated.

He's the one on contract.

But hey, it is an anecdote and I am a secondary source of a secondary source...

And I doubt you could have a "urban" legend on water. Unless you live in Atlantis...

[Neil]

'Small ferry operators'? Such as? Pretty vague stuff, Cascade. Care to substantiate a little?

[Neil]

That's it? And the travel agent stuff? I can't imagine there are many travel agents who get even their lunch money off the volume of business they do relating to BC Ferries.

A p.s. to Curiously... Welcome to this odd little fraternity- I enjoyed your story- I just found it strange that any reputable accountant would be blathering to a perfect stranger about the incompetence or sleaziness of his employer, on their own 'turf', yet... discretion is kind of necessary in their line of work.
(And if you're reading this in the morning, remember, no Guinness before noon.)

[poeticlives]

I'm sorry that I didn't introduce myself (fully) earlier.

My name Mike Toft and I'm a friend Of Jordan Whiteside, aka Strong Skier.

Thanks for the welcome, Hornybuyguy.

It's afternoon! hooray! Pour me a pint!

I think corporate types are not all that suspicious or cautious. I agree with cascade; BC Ferries is VERY comfortable with its monopoly and will lavish friends in other places to keep it. If you yourself run a tight ship and are doing investigation, sometimes you can just let the investigation unravel right in front of you, and the leaks in the corporate purse appear, the corrupt (if you want to go so far as to make that accusation) accountants slip p not knowing which contractor can be trusted or not.

[Curtis]

Not to be picky or anything but there is a introduction topic (New Members) in this area here ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=rrr

[kylefossett]

was the 5 yr old travelling by themself. this may be why the price was so high because they were an unaccompanied minor on an international flight

[Neil]

Curiously: Those of us who believe in a public transportation system have no problem with the basic concept of a BC Ferries 'monopoly', any more than we have a problem with a Coast Mountain Bus 'monopoly' on Vancouver transit. I think the bogus white knight of competition would end up saving taxpayers nothing.

This argument has been done a number of times on this board, and certain parties have stated their animosity to to the public system clearly and often. I've never sensed that anyone's about to change their mind.

[Neil]

I'm not going to inflict any public/private argument on people here, but you should be aware that the 'research' in the report Cascade cites was bought and paid for by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, a right wing propaganda group which argues, virtually without exception, against publicly run enterprises. Take their 'findings' with a huge boulder of salt.

[poeticlives]

Hornbyguy + Cascade = True love

Just joking fellas- now this has been brought up quite a bit on the site before as well I would think.

But your own competition on this site in an analagous sense supports Cascade's argument. Two (or more) arguments allows everyone to develop their own informed, rationalised perspective.

Hornybyguy, monopolies aren't necessarily bad things. State ownership theoretically ensures that citizens can control facets of organisations. I'm not sure I've liked everrything BC Ferries has done (new,simpler logo, paint scheme I like), White Spot Triple-O's I don't like...

Now there are those who've told me that the quality of food has improved... I'm getting beside the point...

We judge by comparison, don't we?

[Neil]

What Cascade never tells us is that virtually every European country pays substantial subsidies to maintain many ferry services- Norway and Denmark, big time- it's a given for the many 'life line' and smaller routes. Even international routes have been subsidized. The notion of dropping subsidies here is nonsensical.

Curiously- I don't see the value of opposing viewpoints in debate as being analogous to the value of competition to a well run, state enterprise. That's not to say that competition is always a bad idea.

[poeticlives]

Hornbyguy,

Touche- I catch your drift witbh the idea of subsidies.

With competition, less traffic is directed to the state-operated ferries, translating to higher net costs, involving more subsidies, which involves a royally pained customer ass!

OK- so to make competition work, we need to know how many ferry services a region can support, so that they all can survive- but then as Cascade projected, the start-up private operator will probably go bust, but hopefully some lessons will be learned.

BC Ferries has size, momentum and grassroots recognition on their side. It's hard to make a dent in that.

Hornbyguy- you say that BC Ferries is, I quote, "a well-run state enterprise." I have my own clear reasons for disagreeing (Why did I start this topic?)

Complete the comparison. BC Ferries is a well-run state enterprise... (compared to what other ferry service).

How would we know? How would we know day from night without the sun?

With a competitive market for ferries, we would have a regional (which I think is important) point of comparison for service and to what degree operations are run tight and efficient.

I don't need to reiterate that cascade is your favourite target for devil's advocacy, and vice versa. Let me put it this way: how would we know just how daft and nonsensical cascade is without you? We NEED you!

(A little poking of fun- again- cascade. No hard feelings!)

[poeticlives]

I should add however though, that I think the weight of extra subsidies to BC Ferries upon the taxpayers, in the instance of a competitive market, would be minimally felt.

This is due to the size, momentum, and grassroots recognition that BC Ferries holds with people here.

Cascade says that most start up enterprises would go bust, so even if extra subsidies were issued to ensure BC Ferries survival, the pain in the taxpayer's behind would be short lived.

If in the instance that the competitive market changed BC Ferries' operating practices, that would hopefully reduce the need for subsidies anyway.

That's the justification I see for competition... and probably Cascade's too.

[Neil]

Curiously- a number of good points. The problem with competition is that it basically doesn't exist anywhere in the ferry industry here in North America, and except for, mainly, the major international runs, it's unusual in Europe as well. It's a bit of a red herring.

Cascade- You ask where the European subsidies are? Well, how about Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, the U.K., Ireland, Spain, Italy, and Greece, for starters?

Since you've identified yourself as a maritime industry financial consultant based in
London, you must be aware that the European Union does not in fact outlaw subsidies, except on commercially viable routes where there is competition- and that a huge portion of the European domestic market does not fit that description.

Virtually all of Denmark's islands receive subsidized service, as do Norway's. Subsidized routes are put up for tender, as the E.U. requires, but there is, more often than not, only one bidder, and it's rare that any domestic routes have competition. Greece has seventy 'lifeline' services which are subsidized or cross subsidized, our controversial 'Sonia' probably receives public funds from the Spanish government on it's route to the Balearics, and even major islands like Corsica receive aid. Even the international routes are not exclusively stand alone- the Finnish government funds a connection to Sweden, and Scottish authorities gave over half a million pounds to Superfast ferries on a failed connection to Belgium.

Sure, the longer haul, ferry liner type runs sail on their own, but we have virtually no parallel here, so there's no point in citing them. On routes comparable to most of ours, subsidies exist in Europe as they do here.

Subsidies in European countries take the form of lump sum payments, freight rate subsidies, free passage for island residents(Denmark, for one), and port infrastructure.

In Norway, local authorities 'bundle' routes for tender, mixing profitable with unprofitable ones to induce bidders to seek a lower subsidy.

If you're sitting at Saltery Bay, fuming that you weren't able to get on the last ferry, should you be dreaming of Europe, where a competing firm would be able to give you a ride? Hardly. Routes like that don't have competition- anywhere- and there's rarely a line up of firms vying to take it on when it does come up for tender. Despite what any one might tell you.

Europe has dozens of large coastal cities. We have one- two, if you count Victoria. Northern European ferries carry eight or nine times the passengers ours do. On the runs between big cities, they largely pay their own way, but a huge number of smaller runs, from the North Cape to the Adriatic, are publicly supported in some way.

Although Cascade likes to paint BC Ferries as a bloated parasite gorging itself at the public trough, (and there might be a tiny bit of truth there), it is simply not true that the enlightened Europeans are efficiently sailing along, free of any downtrodden taxpayer's dough.

They have subsidies, as do we. And in a huge number of cases, they have no competition, simply because the market won't support it. Just like here.

There are a number of sources for information on European ferry subsidies, but the most concise and comprehensive might be this one:

www.scotland.gov.uk/publications/2005/09/08112309/23103

Sorry for being such a bozo with url's.
Huh? It worked! I'm not as dumb as I thought I was!

[WettCoast]

Good show Hornby!

[poeticlives]

Jolly good show indeed!

I certainly didn't know any of that before!

Anyways, I like my right to be mad whenever a state-owned corp makes a gaffe. I'm not a fatalist but at least it's an argument that more people should care about what goes on in BC Ferries who live here. Maybe tourists would make the biggest difference- not nbeing taxpayers and being unaffected by subsidies. We couldn't boycott BC Ferries really- it'djust keep on going! Well, until nobody used it, but considering that a lot of BC Ferries business is not with vacationers but with trucking businesses, tour bus lines, etc. (I remember the last time I was beside a waste truck haha) there's no fear of that.

You just have to figure out the right incentive to make BC Ferries more financially diligent.

Er... don't look at me... or I'll mull on it for a little while...