North Island Express

[Mike C]

For years, I've been tossing around the idea of Route 31 Horseshoe Bay - Comox route with myself, and I thought that I'd share it with you guys, just to see what others think.

The reason I believe a Horseshoe Bay - Comox run would be a good idea, is because a good portion of travellers on Routes 2 and 30 are bound for the north island (Courtenay, Comox, Campbell River, etc.) and to relieve some of the traffic on those routes, we'd have a single-decked intermediate vessel running from Horseshoe Bay to Comox.

The reason I say Horseshoe Bay instead of Tsawwassen, is because I estimate it would reduce the crossing time by about 45 minutes. Yes, I understand holding space would be an issue, and so would berthing space, but running an effecient route is very necessary.

The schedule would be as follows. Crossing time I estimate would be around 3 hours or so. The vessel would be based at Horseshoe Bay, as the Queen of Burnaby is already based in Comox's one berth.


Leaving Horseshoe Bay at: 6:00 am, 1:00 pm, 8:00 pm.

Leaving Comox at: 9:30 am, 4:30 pm, 11:30 pm.


Fares would be the same as Route 30.


I've worked out a revised schedule for the Queen of Burnaby, and another for the North Island Princess. If you are curious as to what that schedule is, i.e. departure times, etc. just let me know.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[Northern Exploration]

I think as north of Nanaimo grows your idea may get some legs. I have three different friends who are either planning to retire or move back to Parksville, Qualicum and the Comox Valley. That is from over halfway across the continent. I think the berth space at Horseshoe Bay and traffic congestion there in summer would be the sticking point.

[Hardy]

Interesting theory. The expansion at HSB could potentially make this feasible (if they added a full upper deck for staging the traffic). However, the current upgrades at Departure Bay and the future expansion of Duke leave little money in the system for upgrading Comox.

Plus, with the Inland Island Highway now complete (Hwy 19) rather than the scenic Oceanside Highway (formerly 19, now 19A), the transit time from Nanaimo (say Departure Bay) up to Comox/Courtenay has become a LOT more negligible than in the past. 6 years ago your idea would have had more legs than it does now.

Pending further expansion of the population centres up the Comox Valley, Campbell River, Port Hardy etc, then this again may serve to revisit this plan.

While I am not against it, per se, I don't think that it would be too easy to justify this route at this time.

Cost wise, a 3-hour crossing on a "medium-sized" (intermediate to use your term) vessel, it would have to be more expensive than a 2-hour Rte-30, or 1.8-hr Rte-1/-2 crossing. The only reason that Rte-30 runs at the same price as Rtes 1&2 is to try to divert traffic away from those two congested routes; plain and simple, the operating costs on Rte-30 are higher (fuel being the major component) than the other two routes.

A 3-hour crossing, on the other hand, would have to go at "AT LEAST" 1.25-1.5x the cost of a Rte 1/2/30 crossing to recoup costs. With a smaller vessel (and therefore less capacity) even these figures might be optimistic.

I would welcome further input on this, and it might even be something interesting for BCFS to study (or fund a survey of), but I just don't see this idea having any legs right now. Not to mention the fact that it would require another vessel, which is just not available year-round at this time.

That being said, come 2010, it might be an interesting TEMPORARY route. Maybe try it out at 2 round trips per day, during peak season only? I could see it more as a seasonal route - it may even take some "strain" off Rte-30 (even though as we have seen, this route is generally NOT at capacity!). Revenue on Rte-30 has NEVER been a problem, to the best of my knowledge (when averaged ANNUALLY at least!) due to the fact that commercial traffic is paying a much higher rate than passenger vehicles - capacity is not utilized, but I think that almost all sailings AVERAGE out to run a decent profit.

It would be interesting to see a study of how a potential Rte-31 would affect traffic flow on Rte-30 as well as on Rte-2.

[Hardy]

A further note, upon thinking about this and dredging up what has already been discussed in these forums ...

How about adjusting your schedule and doing this:

HSB->Langdale (load only)->Comox ... and
Comox->Langdale (unload only)->HSB

This would connect the southern Sunshine Coast via Langdale to Vancouver Island. This has been kicked around a little in some previous threads (pardon me for not searching them out and linking them), but if you are going to run a "3-hour tour" this could be one way of making the finances of it work out a bit better and increase the ridership on the route. This would also offer up another "trucking" link and may be able to channel some freight away from heading all the way up and through Powell River.

I can see this kind of a "milkrun" route working, so long as you don't "mingle" the short-hop (Langdale-HSB) traffic on either portion of the route - after all, that is what Rte-3 is for. The "additional" stop at Langdale, would be, "upon request" only -- ie: if no one is at Langdale say 40 mins before the northbound departure time, then sail direct to Comox from HSB. Conversely, if there is no traffic at Comox southbound to Langdale (which would need to be loaded FIRST for the southbound trip...), then sail directly to HSB. With these restrictions and caveats in place, there would be no having to separate traffic or spend EXCESSIVE amounts of time in port to load/unload at Langdale - northbound traffic would load normally from the aft-end of the vessel, behind any traffic that is already loaded at HSB, and and conversely, southbound traffic destined to Langdale, which would have been loaded towards the bow-end, would exit the ferry without having to reposition any other traffic (except maybe a semi or two pulled ahead in case there is a huge load imbalance).

I can see how this would add about 30-45 minutes to the transit time, but it would also have the effect of potentially having such a north-island route appeal to a wider base of the travelling public.

I'll take more input on this "modification" of the original plan -- sort of interested to see if the forum thinks that this would help or hinder the potential of this route.

[Neil]

I think your crossing time is a bit off, Michael. Horseshoe Bay - Little River is pretty much exactly twice the Tsawwassen - Duke Point distance, so we're looking at, at best, 3 1/2 hours to 3:45. The fares would have to be a lot higher, and if they used an old V, the crossing time would be well over four hours.

Still, it might work for maybe one round trip in the summer, if they added a few amenities and sold it as a mini cruise up Georgia Strait. Would be nice if it could go up Sabine Channel between Lasqueti and Texada, past Jedediah Island. Not the craziest idea.

[WettCoast]

hornbyguy said:

I think your crossing time is a bit off, Michael. Horseshoe Bay - Little River is pretty much exactly twice the Tsawwassen - Duke Point distance, so we're looking at, at best, 3 1/2 hours to 3:45. The fares would have to be a lot higher, and if they used an old V, the crossing time would be well over four hours.

Still, it might work for maybe one round trip in the summer, if they added a few amenities and sold it as a mini cruise up Georgia Strait. Would be nice if it could go up Sabine Channel between Lasqueti and Texada, past Jedediah Island. Not the craziest idea.

Somewhat less crazy then delivering the NorEx by way of the North West Passage, don't you think? Its been an interesting day on this here forum.

[Nick]

Using a quick assessment using mapsource mapping software, the approximate distance from HSB to Little River is about 135 km, or about 73 nautical miles. Using an average speed of 20 knots (dreaming for a V, but perfectly plausible for a C) it would take about 3:40 to cross. If Langdale were included, it would be about 142 km or 78 nautical miles. At an average speed of 20 knots it would take about 3:50 to do this transit. Keep in mind these speeds are not including the time it takes to dock or load/unload, so the Langdale trip would likely be well over 4 hours.

So I definitely think that a crossing time of 3 hours is pushing it (unless you're running the pacificats (actually, this might be a route where the speed advantage makes a difference)). The fare for this route would definitely need to be higher than route 1/2/30 to recover costs.

Although, I do think that with the growth happening north of Comox/Courtenay this might have some merit in future planning.

Although with these new time figures, the speed advantage is not there. 1.5 hours from HSB to Departure, and 1.5 hours roughly by highway north to Comox giving a total of 3 hours plus ferry wait times, or 3.75 hours plus ferry wait times.

If fast ferries were used, it might be doable.

[DENelson83]

I'd rather have double-enders do such a route. Not as big as a C-class, but maybe another Intermediate-class vessel.

However, this kind of idea might run into quite a bit of NIMBY resistance from residents of the North Island who don't want to become another bedroom community of Vancouver. And besides, personally, I enjoy travelling the land route down to Nanaimo and then picking up the Vancouver ferry there.

[Retrovision]

The company has listened and want to give Fast Cat a good name again.

Upon re-engining and slight rebuilding of passenger accommodations, the re-christened North Island Explorer (ex-Island Princess, North Island Princess) will be pressed into service on their newest route between Horseshoe Bay Terminal and Comox - Little River Terminal on a trial basis, full schedules to be determined after a short period of daily service.

It seems that they jumped all over this and it's old news already. Here she is sporting her new name, though the rust will have to wait as the demand for this new route is so great that there was no time to clean up the outside, only to brighten the interior decor and coastalize the comfort...

[DENelson83]

LOL... Funny stuff there, Retro! ;D

[Hardy]

Thanks for posting out the distance figures - I sort of had the idea that 180 mins was a little optimistic.

I would disagree that the Fastcats would be the vessels for this route - lest we forget the wake issue and the much higher than designed fuel consumption. On the surface, their speed DOES make them suited for such a longer route, however with the above two limitations factored in, I think that their unsuitability jumps out.

Add to that their inability to carry heavy traffic (trucks) which would likely be one of the key beneficiaries of the North Island route (based on the early/late departures and the "direct shot" approach saving actual DRIVING time), as well as the Fastcats KNOWN appetite for logs and other things that are not good for their impellers, and yet again they are completely unsuited for any "major" coastal route on the West Coast of British Columbia.

I say this with much disdain, as these darn money pits were built RIGHT here by local shipyards for use in our own back yard, yet they are completely unsuited for any feasible operation whatsoever!

[Retrovision]

hardy said:

Add to that their inability to carry heavy traffic (trucks)

I'm curious as I know little about the Pacificats, is that a matter of policy only, or are they physically unable to take overheight or heavy weight traffic, not considering speeds and fuel consumption but only speaking of capability? Thanks.

[Mike C]

Alright, gang, thanks for the feedback.


Schedules

I wasn't 100% about the crossing time myself (I probably should have mentioned that in my first post). A good sized intermediate vessel can usually hit about 20 knots, so 3:40 sounds about right, probably 3:30 on good days. As a result of my crappy time estimation, I've come up with a revised schedule:

Leaving Horseshoe Bay at: 5:00 am and 2:00 pm.
Leaving Comox at: 9:00 am and 6:00 pm

This revised schedule works around the time that the Queen of Burnaby is in the terminal at Little River, so revised schedules for the Comox-PR and PR-Blubber Bay routes are not necessary this time around.


Terminals

Comox terminal is a tricky one. The Little River NIMBY's on Wilkinson and Ellanor Roads have little tolerance for expansion, however, there is too little space to take on traffic for both routes.

As for Horseshoe Bay, I have no idea what to do. There is little space for traffic, and not enough berthing space. I have considered Langdale as an alternative, but transfers would be cumbersome and time consuming, and it wouldn't be worth it in the end.


Fares

As for fares, the reason I said it would be the same as Route 30, is to attract customers to this particular route.


Vessel

At this time, I am unaware of any vessel that could serve this route, other than the Queen of Tsawwassen. Building a new double-ended intermediate vessel would be costly, but in the long run it would be better than having to use the Queen of Tsawwassen.

Or, if you really want to, you could use the North Island Explorer, I guess.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Retro:

If my memory serves me correct, the Cats were designed in such a way so that heavy trucks could not make it onboard. They figured "Oh, well we can work around this - we'll just send the trucks to Tsawwassen, and put them on Route 30."

[Ferryman]

tsawwassenterminal said:

hardy said:

Add to that their inability to carry heavy traffic (trucks)

I'm curious as I know little about the Pacificats, is that a matter of policy only, or are they physically unable to take overheight or heavy weight traffic, not considering speeds and fuel consumption but only speaking of capability? Thanks.

I'm not sure if the 'Cats were actually physically possible to carry large vehicles. I'm wondering if the fact that they had aluminum frames and plating was an issue, with not carrying the load. Also the extra weight would slow them down dramatically.

Quoted from the BC Ferries site in 1999.

Changes for Large Vehicles
Because PacifiCat is designed to carry a mix of smaller vehicles (cars, pick-ups, vans, SUVs and some RVs), large commercial vehicles (trucks over 5500 kg/gvw) and single-unit recreational vehicles over 28 feet long cannot be carried on the fast ferry. These will be served by the conventional vessel operating between Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay.

web.archive.org/web/19991012123722/bcferries.bc.ca/news/pacificat_brochure.html

[Hardy]

mainlander101 said:

Alright, gang, thanks for the feedback.

...
As for Horseshoe Bay, I have no idea what to do. There is little space for traffic, and not enough berthing space. I have considered Langdale as an alternative, but transfers would be cumbersome and time consuming, and it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

...

If/when it were to come about, I am sure that there could be some space set aside at HSB - the 0500 would not be a problem, but the 1400 would be. You'd have a 4-ferry conflict at that time for staging space. If they decked the staging area, it would work okay. If things were really goofy WRT space, you could look at staging the run based out of PORTEAU COVE. Although I am not sure a B/V can get in there.

** FORUM REGULARS: Can a B/V get into/out of Porteau Cove??? **

As far as "transfers" via Langdale, there would not be any transfers there, nor would it be a "through-fare" type option. Outbound from HSB the route would only PICK UP at Langdale, and Inbound to HSB, it would only DROP OFF at Langdale. This would require NO separation in loading traffic out of HSB, as the Langdale traffic would be added at the end of the load, and only minimal separation of traffic out of Comox -- load the Langdale bound traffic FIRST, and then the HSB traffic behind it. Bump dock at Langdale, kick off the first 5-20 cars (whatever), back out and carry on. No need to shuffle anything, except maybe some "rigs" to balance out any loading imbalance if there were lots of vehicles off at Langdale.

Again, the only reason I threw that in there was to connect the southern Sunshine Coast to the Island, rather than forcing them to do a 2-ferry shuffle via Powell River.

I'm still looking for some input on this side of the equation...

[Ferryman]

hardy said:

** FORUM REGULARS: Can a B/V get into/out of Porteau Cove??? **

Yes, I believe they could.

[Hardy]

ferryman said:

tsawwassenterminal said:

I'm curious as I know little about the Pacificats, is that a matter of policy only, or are they physically unable to take overheight or heavy weight traffic, not considering speeds and fuel consumption but only speaking of capability? Thanks.

I'm not sure if the 'Cats were actually physically possible to carry large vehicles. I'm wondering if the fact that they had aluminum frames and plating was an issue, with not carrying the load. Also the extra weight would slow them down dramatically.

Quoted from the BC Ferries site in 1999.

Changes for Large Vehicles
Because PacifiCat is designed to carry a mix of smaller vehicles (cars, pick-ups, vans, SUVs and some RVs), large commercial vehicles (trucks over 5500 kg/gvw) and single-unit recreational vehicles over 28 feet long cannot be carried on the fast ferry. These will be served by the conventional vessel operating between Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay.

web.archive.org/web/19991012123722/bcferries.bc.ca/news/pacificat_brochure.html

Although these restrictions were in place and BCFC were told NOT to load commercial vehicles >5500kg, I did manage to board HSB->DB with a 5-ton moving van at one point. GVW on this unit was 10900kg and overall length was 34'. I'd already missed the previous non-Cat sailing and was loaded at the descretion of the deck crew. I was told that the reason that they did not load "heavy commercial vehicles" was due to the lighter deck plates and also not to unbalance the catamaran design (as it was apparently very susceptible to load imbalance and "wobble"). I was loaded centreline just forward of midships behind some smaller 1-ton courier vehicles and ahead of some smaller RV's, some pickups with campers, and a horse trailer or two. I believe it was an early AM sailing, although it was years ago and I cannot remember for sure. I know that I missed a C by about 3 trucks (which were the courier style 1-ton cube vans that made it on ahead of me on the 'Cat).

I think that they might have been more liberal in loading this type of "medium" truck, rather than the larger semi's (75' roughly) or dump-truck style larger capacity vehicles. It is my impression that a single-axle truck (ie: steer axle plus one rear dually axle, GVW typically under 14,600kg) can "get away" with a lot more than 2-axle (really 3-axle) trucks which generally have a heavier GVW of approx 25,000kg.

As a comparison, a standard 5-ton delivery/moving truck has no problem going on the Albion boats loaded or not, whereas only empty dump trucks are allowed on and only under non-low tide conditions.

[Nick]

I think that the cats' wave issue is kind of null and void for this particular run, as it is out in the middle of the strait for the majority of the sailing. Yes, it would have to slow down as it goes by Bowen island, as they did before, but that would be made up in the longer stretch that they can go top speed in.

Fuel consumption: Weren't the cats fitted with more fuel efficient engines prior to their being sold to WMG?

As far as trucks go, I really don't know. I think that you would be hard pressed to get Transport Canada to allow fully loaded semi combinations on board the cats, as they were not designed to accommodate that kind of loading.

[Hardy]

They never did allow "large" trucks onboard, laden or not. On paper, they only loaded small & medium RV's, and small trucks (ie: cube vans/1-tons - courier style vans - the cut-a-way style with about a 16' cargo box mated up to what looks like the front of a passenger van) - these are generally gvw'ed at 5500kg or less. In practice, they DID load moving trucks (single-axle straight truck units) such as 5-ton trucks, typically GVW'd 10,000-14,600kg, with 20-24' cargo boxes on a "class-5-thru-7" truck chassis. These are the type with 2 total axles, 6 wheels - 2 steer tires and one rear dually axle - the type that Sears & the Brick deliver furniture to your house in (they hold about a 3 bedroom worth of household stuff) - a typical Budget or Penske type rental truck that you'd rent to move yourself for about $150 per day.

Any kind of semi, whether freight or not, would be about 65-75' in length, and have a GVW of over 45000kg up to 63500kg.

[Mill Bay]

Hmmmm,

I agree that this run sounds like an interesting idea, but I doubt the fast cats will ever see revenue service again.

I like the idea of using a rechristened NIP on the run though. It would make her a lot more accessible to most of us to ride on. It's interesting that for her it would almost be like coming full circle, since she has served on similar lengthy routes in the past, both in her former life and after her recreation when she connected the northern islands with Kelsey Bay and Port Hardy.

[Neil]

millbay said:

I like the idea of using a rechristened NIP on the run though.

... so I guess you like the idea of taking about a week to get to Little River from Horseshoe Bay. Oh wait, I forgot.. we're installing one of the Pacificat's engines...

She'll be the world's fastest fifty year old catamaran mutation. Just the ticket.

[hergfest]

Why would you do this route when there is a good freeway that gets you there? Its much faster to travel by car then by ferry. The only reason Route 30 works is cause you have a long way to drive around from Swartz Bay to north island, plus there is no freeway between Victoria and Nanaimo.

[Nucksrule]

hardy said:

Again, the only reason I threw that in there was to connect the southern Sunshine Coast to the Island, rather than forcing them to do a 2-ferry shuffle via Powell River.

I'm still looking for some input on this side of the equation...

The only problem with this is that a B/V class ferry would not be able to get directly out from Langdale to the Georgia Strait via Shoal Channel between Keats Island and Gibsons. It would most likely take an extra 30-40 mins. to go all the way back around Keats through Collingwood Channel. Of course though the easy fix to this just to put the NIE on this route. ;D

[Hardy]

Rte 30 works for a variety of reasons; 20 mins greater crossing time to cut out the whole Malahat ordeal. Regardless of the lack of a proper highway from Vic<->Nan, unless you could do that trip in under 20 mins ....

Geographically with current highway connections, Rte 30 makes a lot of sense, even more so once they get the SFPR in place thru Delta and Surrey out to Hwy-1 @ 176th.

Regardless, yes I think that one of the first few posts that were made stated that the journey from Nanaimo to the Comox Valley via the (new) inland highway is a fairly expedited journey.

[Neil]

Musing aside, I agree with Hergfest and Hardy. Except for maybe a few tourists using this for a summer mini-cruise, there really would be no attraction for anyone to take this route. You can get from Horseshoe Bay to Courtenay faster by taking the ferry to Departure Bay and driving, and if you're heading further up island the prospect of this route is still less advantageous, given how far Little River is from the new highway. Still, if they had a spare boat, I could see promoting it as a once a day summer tourist run. Maybe.