Re:Powell River Class

[Ferryman]

Here is a thread for the purpose of redirecting discussion/traffic from an inappropriate thread for discussions.

Here's a recap.

• The member 'queenofcowichan' stated there are sailing cancellations due to low tide at Descano Bay, Gabriola Island with the Bowen Queen. His theory to the issue was that the heavier the ship, the lower it sits in the water.
  
• The member 'coxnick' objected that statement, and came up with a theory that the Bowen Queen might have a deeper draft (the draft is the depth the hull sits in the water)
  
• I mentioned the fact that the Bowen Queen, and her sisters, were once rudder/shaft format, similar to a C-Class, or Howe Sound Queen.
  

Now, I'm trying to think when the RADs were installed. I'm almost positive they tried to run the vessels after they were lengthened in the early 1970s, but later realised their maneuverability was jeopardized due to their added length. As a result, the Propellar and shaft was removed, and the rudder was fixed to act more of the edge of the bow, and four Right Angle Drives were installed in each of the four corners of the ship. Here you can see the Rudder is still visable.



Unlike the K-Class, and Q-Class, these vessels have their engines located below the car deck. Thus these vessels will have a deeper draft to compensate for an engine room. The Q Class and K Class have a shallower flat bottomed hull, which is an empty with some holding tanks for fresh and grey water.

[Dane]

A vessel sitting "lower" in the water and having a deeper draft, are at the heart of it, the same thing?

[Nick]

more or less, yes.

[Mirrlees]

The RAD's were installed at the time of stretching in 1979. Meanwhile, in 1973 PRQ had her superstucture "lifted" for overheights.

P.S. I would think that PRQ looked rather strange with a raised superstructure but; as yet, un-stretched.

[Scott]

On the Transport Canada statistics, what would "Vessel Depth" mean? Their stats peg the Quinsam's depth at 3.51 meters and the Bowen Queen at 3.57m... a grand total difference of 5cm. I was surprised to notice how similar the Quinsam and Bowen Queen are in tonnage, length, and breadth... only a few meters difference (Quinsam is slightly larger) and less than 20 tonnes difference (Bowen Queen is slightly heavier).

[Nick]

I am not positive, but if I recall correctly, vessel depth is the distance from the deck to the bottom of the keel. It would not include the RADs.

I did a little bit of digging on how tonnage is measured, and I found this on Wikipedia.

Gross Tonnage (GT) refers to the volume of all ship's enclosed spaces (from keel to funnel) measured to the outside of the hull framing. It is always larger than gross register tonnage, though by how much depends on the vessel design. It was a measurement of the enclosed spaces within a ship expressed in "tons" – a unit which was actually equivalent to 100 cubic feet.

And this, also from Wikipedia

Many people in many countries, including those professional people working in maritime industries for many years or even in their lifetime, often confuse "Tonnage" and "Ton". Please note that "Tonnage" refers to the unit of a ship's volume in measurement for registration and "Ton" refers to the unit of weight. They are totally different in concept.

And this:

While not "tonnage" in the proper sense, the following methods of ship measurement are often incorrectly referred to as such:

Displacement is the actual total weight of the vessel. It is often expressed in long tons or in metric tons, and is calculated simply by multiplying the volume of the hull below the waterline (ie. the volume of water it is displacing) by the density of the water. (Note that the density will depend on whether the vessel is in fresh or salt water, or is in the tropics, where water is warmer and hence less dense.) For example, in sea water, first determine the volume of the submerged portion of the hull as follows: Multiply its length by its breadth and the draft, all in feet. Then multiply the product thereby obtained by the block coefficient of the hull to get the hull volume in cubic feet. Then multiply this figure by 64 (the weight of one cubic foot of seawater) to get the weight of the ship in pounds; or divide by 35 to calculate the weight in long tons. Using the SI or metric system : displacement (in tonnes) is volume (in m³) multiplied by the specific gravity of sea water (1.025 nominally).

The word "displacement" arises from the basic physical law, discovered by Archimedes, that the weight of a floating object equates exactly to that of the water which would otherwise occupy the "hole in the water" displaced by the ship.

Lightship measures the actual weight of the ship with no fuel, passengers, cargo, water, etc. on board.

Deadweight (often abbreviated as DWT for deadweight tonnes) is the displacement at any loaded condition minus the lightship weight. It includes the crew, passengers, cargo, fuel, water, and stores. Like Displacement, it is often expressed in long tons or in metric tons.


So, the bottom line is that Gross Tonnage is a measure of volume contained in the entire ship, not the weight or mass of the ship.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion between Gross Tonnage and weight. Also note that the Quinsam's net tonnage is much larger than the Bowen's, at 1392t vs. 964t. However, as noted above, this has nothing to do with the actual weight or draft of the ship.

[Mill Bay]

It seems to me that depth is actually the measure of the depth of the keel below the surface from the waterline. That's what plimsol lines and depth markings are for on freighters and such, so they can determine how deep the hull of a ship can be 'sunk' in the water by the weight of its cargo and not compromise the center of gravity during most forseeable operating conditions.

[Retrovision]

ferryman said:

Unlike the K-Class, and Q-Class, these vessels have their engines located below the car deck. Thus these vessels will have a deeper draft to compensate for an engine room. The Q Class and K Class have a shallower flat bottomed hull, which is an empty with some holding tanks for fresh and grey water.

Indeed both the 'Q' Class and 'K' Class vessels' RADs sit much higher up than the 'Powell River' Class vessels due to the engines being above the waterline and not below...


www.ferrypicsbygraham.fotopic.net/p30943181.html


www.ferrypicsbygraham.fotopic.net/p30943190.html
Both GAJ Photos ~ Quinsam departing Downtown Nanaimo Terminal, June 2006

mirrlees60 said:

P.S. I would think that PRQ looked rather strange with a raised superstructure but; as yet, un-stretched.

Jim has a great photo of just this in his collection, one of my favorite photos of a Minor vessel.

This is a classic JST Photo (See Repy #12)

[queenofcowichan]

Friday, November 23

I just got off the Bowen Queen a few minutes ago (I am at the Nanaimo Library a 5 min walk from the ferry) and the captain made a anouncement just as we departed Gabriola Island, He announced over the Ship's PA that the cancelled and delayed sailings are a result of:

THE DRAFT OF THE BOWEN QUEEN and LOW WATER.

[Nick]

thank you "queenofcowichan" for that first hand account of the "official reason"

[Low Light Mike]

mirrlees60 said:

The RAD's were installed at the time of stretching in 1979. Meanwhile, in 1973 PRQ had her superstucture "lifted" for overheights.

P.S. I would think that PRQ looked rather strange with a raised superstructure but; as yet, un-stretched.

Here's some picture-threads for the PRQ:
ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=photos&action=display&thread=1131514703

www.evergreenfleet.com/powellriverclass.html

[Coastal Canuck]

Does anyone know why there is no snack bar on the Mayne Queen ? and when the Bowen Queen is replacing vessel's like the Skeena Queen, Howe Sound Queen and Quinsam is the Bowen Queen's snack bar open? Wouldn't it make sence to have one on the Mayne Queen seeing how long people could be on her in the Gulf Islands?

[WettCoast]

tsawwassenterminal said:

mirrlees60 said:

P.S. I would think that PRQ looked rather strange with a raised superstructure but; as yet, un-stretched.

Jim has a great photo of just this in his collection, one of my favorite photos of a Minor vessel. Am I right in recalling that this is another classic DOT Photo?

This is actually is mine, scanned from a slide taken in July 1978. One of my brothers was getting married in Powell River and I was on my way to the festivities. I also recall that there were two vessels on the Jervis Inlet route that summer. I was riding on one when I took this photo of the PRQ passing by in the opposite direction. Unfortunately I have no recollection of what ferry I was actually on.

[Retrovision]

extreamme said:

Does anyone know why there is no snack bar on the Mayne Queen ? and when the Bowen Queen is replacing vessel's like the Skeena Queen, Howe Sound Queen and Quinsam is the Bowen Queen's snack bar open? Wouldn't it make sence to have one on the Mayne Queen seeing how long people could be on her in the Gulf Islands?

I'm only certain that the Mayne Queen hasn't been away from Route 5 - Swartz Bay to Southern Gulf Islands - for years.

wetcoastkidjst said:

...
This is actually is mine, scanned from a slide taken in July 1978. One of my brothers was getting married in Powell River and I was on my way to the festivities. I also recall that there were two vessels on the Jervis Inlet route that summer. I was riding on one when I took this photo of the PRQ passing by in the opposite direction. Unfortunately I have no recollection of what ferry I was actually on.

Now I seem to recall this story. Thanks for reminding us as credit should be paid where due.

[hergfest]

Isn't the little Powell River Queen so cute? I remember riding her in the early 90's across the Jervis Inlet, I have a picture of me and my bro on the sun deck.

[Neil]

wetcoastkidjst said:

I also recall that there were two vessels on the Jervis Inlet route that summer. I was riding on one when I took this photo of the PRQ passing by in the opposite direction. Unfortunately I have no recollection of what ferry I was actually on.

Lucky you, that would have been the Pender Queen you were on. Never got a chance to ride that one.

[Mill Bay]

I also thought of a bigger question regarding the Powell River class in general that struck me while seeing the older images of the PRQ: it looks as if she was lifted quite early in her career and I was curious why they never made the move to do the same thing with the Bowen Queen and Mayne Queen because it seems at times they are clearly hampered in their functionality by the lack of overhead clearance, while the Powell River Queen is not thus limited.

[queenofcowichan]

Yeh, I often wonderd that too, especially watching the Bowen Queen back out of Swartz Bay and re-dock with the other end of the ship to the dock only to load up a semi Truck/trailer. But if you want my honest opionion even though I like the Powell River Queen I think the original configuration ie Bowen Queen looks better.

[Mill Bay]

Yes, that is true... I was actually confused the first time I saw a picture of the PRQ, and I thought it was a different ferry and wondered what it's name was because it didn't look like part of the Powell River class.

I remember reading a comment by someone who was a resident of Bowen Island who said they always prefer it when the Bowen Queen goes back to that run, because she looks better than the Capilano. They said that they always called the Bowen Queen 'the wedding cake ferry' because it looks like the decks all rise up on top of each other.

bowen-island-bc.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=46837&t=46837

[queenofcowichan]

My "love affair" with the Bowen and Mayne Queens started when I was a little kid, I thought they were the neatest looking small double ended ships. Too this day they are my favorite double ended ships Smaller than the Cowichan Class. I still like the Cowichan and Coquitlam the best, followed by the Walla and Spokane of WSF. They are by far the best looking double ended ships in the world!

The Oak Bay and Surrey are okay from a passenger point of view on board in the forward lounges however I do not like the look of extended passenger deck from the outside verses the Cow and Coq.

And I realy like the Alberni too.

[Mill Bay]

The Alberni was always my favorite double-ender as a kid... I even mistakenly thought she had a twin sister once because I mis-read a caption in the Bannerman's book, and thought that the name Queen of Vancouver was referring to the Alberni. (So you have another one to add to the phantom fleet with the Queen of Richmond).

After that, though, I grew up, and realized I liked the Susy-Q a whole lot better, and now I sort of admire the Queen of Chilliwack because she just looks so solid and sturdy.

And I also like all the WSF double-enders, especially the Evergreen State class and the Steel Electrics, and my latest favorite is the Islander that was recently retired from the Woods Hole Steamship Authority fleet.

The Powell River class were always unique though, but I've never actually ridden on one... it's still on my to do list. They do look pretty elegant though, and I would include the Howe Sound Queen in the same category. In addition, I think the WSF's Hiyu can be included as well because she looks like she could be a close cousin of the Powell River class ships.

[Quatchi]

It's funny that you say the Queen of Chilliwack looks so solid and sturdy. Even though she is Ice rated she rattles and vibrates like a small earthquake.
When they added the RAD's in the QPR would they have totally rebuilt her below the water line or used the same engine rooms with extensions on the shafts or something?

Cheers,

[Ferryman]

millbay said:

...I sort of admire the Queen of Chilliwack because she just looks so solid and sturdy.

cadmunkey said:

It's funny that you say the Queen of Chilliwack looks so solid and sturdy. Even though she is Ice rated she rattles and vibrates like a small earthquake.

Heh, what he said. ;D

Never judge a book by its cover. I guess I should hurry up and post a video I filmed on the Queen of Chilliwack back in the spring, of the pile of coins toppling over due to the vibrations.

[WettCoast]

Yes, I have to agree, the Bowen class vessels are neat little ferries, and are pleasing to the eye when viewed from either end. The Powell River Queen does not look as nice as its sisters, though I will concede that it is probably much more functional.

I took a trip on the Mayne Queen this past May and found it a neat ferry upon which to ride, also; a better experience, in my mind, then riding on its newer sidekick, the Cumberland.

The Bowen class vessels now have forty-plus years under their keels. I suppose they are facing retirement soon. I will be sorry to see them go.


Mayne Queen arriving @ Sturdies Bay - 2 May 2007
photo by JST ©

[Neil]

Expected retirement dates for the three, as of the last Coastal Ferry Services Contract, was:

Bowen Queen- 2014/2015
Mayne Queen- 2015/2016
Powell River Queen- 2016/2017

Since circumstances almost always seem to conspire to keep ferries in service past their 'expiry date', I'd say chances are good all three sisters will be around for at least another ten years.

I'd agree with the sentiments on the less altered Bowen and Mayne. They've always been among my favorites. Modernized versions of classic double enders.