Tourists Beware: Mandatory Forms for Ferry Photos

[Retrovision]

Yes, the thread subject-title is an exaggeration, or atleast I hope.

I have always simply shrugged-off the countless times that crew members aboard BCF vessels have inquired as to what I was taking pictures of, ranging from a suspicious tone to telling me that I would need to ask permission of the Chief Steward, the majority of times that I've been photographing the interior of a ferry in any way. I even discounted the Terminal Manager of Swartz Bay approaching me with similar yet far more pointed questions (pre-QotN sinking) as understandable, but somewhere along the line since then it started to cross a line, somewhere between a member of the Mill Bay's crew using patronizing sarcasm about my photography and the present. At first I felt a mix of understanding for the unique nature of security on a ferry, even in the free world, and a wondering of why I was the only one I've ever seen asked these questions.

The proverbial final straw came along recently after arriving at Village Bay, Mayne Island, as a paying customer (as has *always* been the case in these instances). I walked up the hill to near the exit of the terminal to get the best pictures possible of the venerable Queen of Tsawwassen departing, walked back down to wait for my next ferry, and was approached by a terminal attendant on her way to the ramp who asked me what I was taking pictures for. By now I've figured out that "personal" is about the best answer to this question and said so this time, and yet I was informed that in the future I would need to fill-out paperwork to take these pictures.

It would be much appreciated if someone in-the-know could speak to this, or, to be blunt,

Explain why one of my fundemental freedoms in this fine country is constantly being challenged by BCFS employees

-and-

Why I am being blatantly discriminated against in this regard

[NMcKay]

do the right thing. just be as angry at the employee as you can. and if he kicks you out, then you can enjoy sueing BC Ferries for Di Regarding a freedom we take for granted.

[Low Light Mike]

I'd suggest communicating with Fort St. directly.

Send a letter or email to Deborah, to ask if there's a policy that "you need to be aware of" re picture taking.

The response that you get from Fort St. would then determine your next step, if necessary.

You might also want to ask Fort St. how they recommend that you respond to the questions/comments from employees on the ships & at the terminals.

You might also want to include a reference to your website.

You seem to be treated differently from Mr. D.Thorne and Mr. K.Stapelton, and that's a poor inconsistency on BCFS's part.

Again, I recommend communicating the issue straight-on with Fort St.

[NMcKay]

i think it may have to do with the equipment more than anything. a regular P&S camera will be fine, but like a 10MP DSLR probably falls under professional Photographer, and may need a press pass (same At BC Lions games and the such)

[Curtis]

Well said. Probably why the crew is concerned about it.

[NMcKay]

in this terrorist ridden cesspool of a world, they are probably scared your planning something.

[Koastal Karl]

I took photos on my flights to and from Edmonton and was never approached by a flight attendant asking what I was doing. And I even took photos on the plane of the interior on a stop over in Calgary. I havent heard of anyone being approached on a plane about what they are taking photos of. Just BC Ferries which is rediculas you think in this world, the airlines would be more of a concern not ferries. But I see you what your saying they might be more suspicious of someone with a big fancy camera with all this camera equipment, coughGRAHAMcough than someone like me with a small little Sony Cybershot camera, lol! But still you should be free to take photos of what ever you want as long as your not going into Crew Only areas or restricted areas.

[Kam]

An example of this is right on the WSF website at: www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/security/

This could be any number of us ferry fans:

Be Alert; Don’t be Alarmed; and Be Aware of Your Surroundings
Report suspicious persons, objects or activities to crewmembers. Suspicions should be based on activity, not what someone looks like. Examples of potentially suspicious behavior include:

Unusual photography of ferry operations.
People displaying heightened interest in secure areas onboard the ferries.
Suspicious questioning of WSF personnel about security procedures.
People critically observing ferry operations while taking notes or making computer entries.
Suspicious waterside activities in and around docks and ferries.

[Islander15]

Graham, while I throroughly enjoy looking at the great pictures you have taken over the years I understand why you are experiencing some trouble from Ferry Employees. As a ship board employee of BCFS I am told to be on the lookout of ANY suspicious behaviour, up to and including taking photographs of of Ships, Terminals and employees. If I saw you I would ask what you were doing too. Perhaps in the future you might just want to tell the employee what you're doing prior to taking the photographs. This will probably take care of most of the problems you are encountering.

As for it being your right, as far as I know you can take pictures of public spaces(ie Ferries) but the company has a right to know what purpose you are taking them for.

I also believe that if you take Ferry employees pictures the company has the right to ask you to stop and kick you out. (Although I do note and appreciate that you never seem to take any pictures with BCFS employees in them)

I hope this helps you.
Regards.

[Political Incorrectness]

I remember reading somewhere that one of the rules of photography was that transportation is fair game. Sure, people can be suspicious but that does not mean you cannot do that due to it being a mode of transport.

[Deleted]

Y'know...

Maybe BCFS needs to hire photographers to take the kinds of pictures that we ferry fans do.

Is it my imagination or did they have more diverse photos in the early days? I have an early collectible that they put out as a pack of pictures that you could buy as a souvenir.

Maybe people like Graham could sell their gorgeous shots to the company and they could market them. I have NO doubt they would sell! He could become an official ships photographer and get free rides!!

[Koastal Karl]

Yeah no kidding! I would do that too. I am sure we would all love to be hired by BC Ferries to photograph the ships.

[Koastal Karl]

I could see if you were taking interior photos but if you were taking photos from the dock of the ship or anything like that, why are they so concerned. People take photos like that all the time.

[Low Light Mike]

Islander-15:

Thanks very much for posting an employee's perspective on this issue. That adds a good balance to this issue that we're discussing.

[WettCoast]

Three weeks ago I was at Village Bay taking pictures just like Graham was. Similar over-sized digital SLR camera also. No ferry employee or anyone else stopped to inquire as to what I was up to. It was obvious - another ferry/train freak taking pics - in so-so weather I might add. Could be to that someone my age showing character lines in his face is less likely to be asked questions then a young person like Graham. Then again I generally have not gone under docks to get the ultimate picture. I also think I look more like a tourist then a terrorist.

One must keep in mind in this post 9/11 era employees of transportation companies like BCFS's are told to be on the lookout for anything suspicious just as written on the WSF link posted above.

Anyways, being adventurous and pushing the limits a bit can result in superb photos and Graham has done an excellent job in this regard.

JST

[Barnacle]

Well, from the one or two pictures of Graham I've seen, he doesn't look like a terrorist, but then, we aren't supposed to 'profile.' If we see people taking pictures of stuff that might be considered "unusual" (i.e., interiors of vessels, piping, ventilation, that sort of thing), that's something we are supposed to be concerned about. Or if we find people in spaces or places (like, say, under a dock) that people don't normally go or would be expected to be, we raise an eyebrow.

I must also state that when reading Graham's posts on this issue, I detect a certain surliness in the tone that, if it manifests itself in the conversations/confrontations with BCFS employees, doesn't exactly help his case.

[Retrovision]

barnacle said:

I must also state that when reading Graham's posts on this issue, I detect a certain surliness in the tone that, if it manifests itself in the conversations/confrontations with BCFS employees, doesn't exactly help his case.

I might play a character on a forum for the fun of it, but, as I was just saying to a few people from this forum the other day, just because I might accidentally be careless at times - and I only mean at times like when I soaked my pant-leg (kneeling after tripping) in a creek at Saltery Bay - but I'm not stupid. There's something to be said for trying to always initially demonstrate an attitude of mutual respect to those around us, no matter your rank in life.

[Barnacle]

I concur completely. I was merely speculating about the attitude I've perceived in some of the posts. As long as you aren't going into these conversations live with a chip on your shoulder, that's fine.

The angle I'm trying to point out, though, is to please see it from the employees' standpoint. Until Sept. 11, 2001, I really didn't care--or even think about--the enthusiasts taking the photos. Heck, I am one. I understood. But after that horrible day, we were given a list of information to attain in situations where something "unusual" was going on--but were given little to no training on what constituted unusual or how to go about it, at least with my outfit. One instructor even said that we would basically have to trust our instincts.

So, if someone actually asked me before taking photos, I'd probably do a little inquiry as to what they were up to, and then let them go at it. I appreciate enthusiasm on the topic. And frankly, I can usually tell who the groupies are without any real training. (Most of us are on a first name basis. ;D )

That having been said, even given the scope of the system you photograph, I would think a fair number know you by sight if not name by now. I wonder if Mission Control has a file on you yet?

[Retrovision]

Islander15 said:

As for it being your right...

tsawwassenterminal said:

Explain why one of my fundemental freedoms in this fine country...

...

Islander15 said:

Perhaps in the future you might just want to tell the employee what you're doing prior to taking the photographs.

Are you asking all tourists with big camera's who, for example, admire Spaulding's designs to do the same?

The truth be told, I am very diligent about respecting peoples' boundaries; that is to say considering boundaries no different than most of us would expect to have in public. For this same reason my photographs tend to often lack a certain quality that most photographers of any stripe realize can really make a shot...

airchime said:

Hey Nighthawk,

Those are some nice photos. No offence to the members (we all have our own interests), but it's nice to see ship photos with actual passengers in them! It just adds a bit of colour and makes the ship look more
alive.

...

I am very proud of the fact that I live in a country with quite a healthy Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including - Sec. 2(b) - "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communiacaion;"

Cheers,
Graham

[Alex]

I'm wondering what asking photographers what they're doing will accomplish. Are you expecting some sort of evil terrorist to slip up and spill his plans on the spot? Like Barnacle said, the employees aren't really trained to know whats unusual and whats, not, so how the hell can they know anything?

Quite frankly, its our right to take whatever pictures we want until BCFerries makes a blanket rule about no photographs. Which I doubt will happen. And until that point, they simply can't pick and choose people to harass about doing something thats within the rules. If I was taking some pictures on a ferry, and someone asked me what I was doing, I would tell them its none of their business.

[Low Light Mike]

Alex, I find that attitude troubling, re how I'm reading your final paragraph.

Would you look to that same crew member for help/direction in the event of a ship emergency? Would it be their business to talk to you then?

In a confined-space environment, even when it's "the public's ship", you have to surrender some freedom, because you are under the care & watch of the crew for the voyage.

As I read through this debate, here is the image and transcript that come to mind:



www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/docs/october/watchme.htm

[Retrovision]

flugelhorn said:

Alex, I find that attitude troubling, re how I'm reading your final paragraph.

Would you look to that same crew member for help/direction in the event of a ship emergency? Would it be their business to talk to you then?

In a confined-space environment, even when it's "the public's ship", you have to surrender some freedom, because you are under the care & watch of the crew for the voyage.

As I read through this debate, here is the image and transcript that come to mind:



www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/docs/october/watchme.htm

CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982

...
Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

1. Rights and freedoms in Canada -- The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

[/size]
...[/quote]

[sgrant]

The goal of terrorists is to sow fear and disorder. The questioning of someone taking pictures on a BC ferry is an example of their degree of success.

I imagine BCF personnel have received training on this subject, and each employee will handle that training differently. Some will forget it, some will be overzealous, and everything in between.

I agree with Alex that a true terrorist is unlikely to reveal what they're up to in the face of a simple question.

I would also venture that any such photos are irrelevant, given there are photos of the ferries all over the place, and you don't need photos to drive aboard with a rigged vehicle or body pack. Photos of staff for the purpose of terrorism is even more fanciful. You think that the fellow who drove aboard BC and Washington ferries with a bomb in the trunk of his car, first rode on the ferries to take pictures of the ferry and the staff? Gimme a break.

Given that photography is such an accepted and popular activity on the ferries, any attempt to "police" it is going to be counterproductive, and prevent nothing.

And Canadian law has a provision about intimidation that addresses preventing citizens from doing things they have the right to do, such as photography in public places.

BC Ferries should concern itself more with operating its ships safely, because it's obviously a greater problem.

[Low Light Mike]

Re Graham's super-size-font reply.

Sorry, I don't speak "cut/paste" very well. What is your point?

Are you saying that Trudeau's 1982 Charter of Rights & Freedoms justifys his October-1970 actions? That's how I'm interpreting it....although the large font does distract my concentration.

This is maybe more of a general comment rather than directed at your situation, but sometimes the people that defend their rights the loudest are jerks, and they are essentially defending their right to be a pain-in-the-ass to whatever authority they don't like.

Now regarding Graham's situation, I really find it hard to believe that he can't simply get along better with those ferry staff that he comes in contact with. That being said, based on his on-line personality, I can see how he would see any questioning from crew as a violation of his personal freedom.

Diff'rent strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm obviously on the other side of a very wide gulf on this core issue.......

[Retrovision]

flugelhorn said:

Re Graham's super-size-font reply.

Sorry, I don't speak "cut/paste" very well. What is your point?

Are you saying that Trudeau's 1982 Charter of Rights & Freedoms justifys his October-1970 actions? That's how I'm interpreting it....although the large font does distract my concentration.

This is maybe more of a general comment rather than directed at your situation, but sometimes the people that defend their rights the loudest are jerks, and they are essentially defending their right to be a pain-in-the-ass to whatever authority they don't like.

Now regarding Graham's situation, I really find it hard to believe that he can't simply get along better with those ferry staff that he comes in contact with. That being said, based on his on-line personality, I can see how he would see any questioning from crew as a violation of his personal freedom.

Diff'rent strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm obviously on the other side of a very wide gulf on this core issue.......

Don't even know where to begin.

Sides? I had thought that I made it clear that I am not always necessarily posting to make a point - take my photography for example - I try to post for the enrichment of this forum.

the font on this forum is the smallest you will find on the net - I often see graphics with fonts larger than the titles I posted those quotes in. Does a large font have to always mean that the message is being yelled?

Cheers,
Graham