Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,180
|
Post by Neil on Sept 28, 2006 15:02:51 GMT -8
Landlocked: I appreciate your input here, but I don't think it's entirely fair to use a Korean bid on the Spirits to show that BC shipyards are not competitive.
In the early '90s, Korean shipyard workers earned less than a third of what their BC counterparts made. Also, the Korean industry is heavily subsidized, and is helped by complex government/ banking industry tax and financing incentives; and it is alleged some ships have been built at a loss in order to procure larger contracts. Japanese and European builders likewise have their snouts firmly planted in the public trough.
Consider: Canadian ship builders receive appreciably less in government subsidies than builders elsewhere. Therefore, though a Canadian bid on a ship may be higher, the difference in costs to the taxpayer is not as great as one would think because of lower hidden costs- subsidies or tax/ financing arrangements. Not to mention the huge benefits to the economy of building here.
We can choose to build overseas, but the question of over all cost effectiveness is a complex one. Quoting price tags on the ships themselves isn't necessarily the most accurate way to answer that question.
Sorry to all those who are bored by this argument. I know it's been done a lot. At least there's lots of channels on this tv.
|
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 28, 2006 20:36:46 GMT -8
As for this thread (and same with the "Ferries & Communism" thread), I'm sitting back an enjoying reading the ongoing discussion. I don't have much to add to either thread, but I'm having fun reading the different takes on the topics......so please keep going.
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Sept 28, 2006 22:43:12 GMT -8
An interesting legal disclaimer was given out along with the other materials...
|
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 29, 2006 7:02:28 GMT -8
An interesting legal disclaimer was given out along with the other materials... That's standard wording for financial reporting of future projections. This exact wording is used in every corporate report or publication for those types of projections. Sounds funny, but it's just cut/paste required disclosure. |
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 29, 2006 7:06:19 GMT -8
Shipyard Workers may have spent it on new pickup trucks, beer, smokes, Hawaii vacation, or just paid down the mortgage on the house. Seriously, with an up & down industry, the workers probably used the good money to pay off debts incurred during the previous work shortage.
Any gain in personal affluence was likely offset by shrinking of affluence during the 5-year period after construction, when the workers lived off their savings.....ending up where they started.
Not being a BC Shipyard worker, that's just my guess.
|
|
|
|
Post by landlocked on Sept 29, 2006 9:05:00 GMT -8
The whole argument about build BC/not BC, the chance to rebuild the BC shipbuilding industry slipped by when the Spirits were built. They were put together by a bunch of smaller yards all willing to build components, but not willing to take on the major project. Hence, BC Ferry Corp had to form their OWN company to build them and take on all the financial and performance risk. It was at that time the Province should have invited an experienced domestic/foreign partner to take over and revitalize Versatile Pacific and provide them with the job to build the two Spirits as the reward for the capital investment.
Look too at the possible market for BC built ships. Not our biggest trading partner, the US. You couldn't use a BC built ship in the US. The Norweigans didn't get it. The Australians did. Hence a partnership between a US and Australian builder now known as Austal USA. Their order books are full of US company and military builds. If we built them the Jones Act would prevent their use in the US. The only market....Canada.
When you build in Canada as a government entity such as BCFS and pay a significant premium for doing so, isn't that a subsidy? Take the Super C's. If they were for example 200M built in BC (which I would think would be low, given the 42M pricetag of the intermediate vessel) and a European build will give you a boat for 150/160M, knowing that BCFS are subsidized by the Province, wouldn't that be a 40-50M per boat subsidy to the shipyard?
I'm not saying build the boats in India or the absolutely lowest bidder, don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is what penalty or premium are you prepared to pay to build BC and are the customers prepared to pay the ticket price to pay for them. Let's also consider, if BCFS was never created, and all the operators were private, like WMG, CPR, and so on, would we all complain about foreign builds?
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,180
|
Post by Neil on Sept 29, 2006 10:40:46 GMT -8
Landlocked- I think it takes a very, very detailed cost analysis of a lot of different factors to determine the true advantages or disadvantages of building at home. While I don't agree with everything you say, I can understand where you're coming from. Valid points.
Cascade- your rhetoric is so overblown, and your tendency for scandal-mongering is so fixed that I don't see much point in replying on this issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Sept 30, 2006 15:25:54 GMT -8
An interesting legal disclaimer was given out along with the other materials... That's standard wording for financial reporting of future projections. This exact wording is used in every corporate report or publication for those types of projections. Sounds funny, but it's just cut/paste required disclosure. I thought it important to mention this to those who weren't there; this was also repeated during the meeting. |
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 30, 2006 15:51:38 GMT -8
No mention in this thread on the attendance or non-attendance of BCFS's media-relations person, Ms. Marshall.
Was such person in attendance and, if so, where's your report on your time in such presence?
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Sept 30, 2006 16:03:55 GMT -8
She met me at the door.
What more can I say?
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Sept 30, 2006 18:30:08 GMT -8
...Although she did immediately ask me if I was a member of the media  |
|
|
|
Post by Curtis on Sept 30, 2006 21:40:18 GMT -8
I guess because you had the Camera Equipment and all.
|
|
Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
|
Post by Koastal Karl on Sept 30, 2006 22:05:33 GMT -8
You should of said you were the represenitive for the Ferries of BC forum. lol!
|
|
|
|
Post by Ferryman on Oct 1, 2006 9:55:19 GMT -8
What I heard was, they're going to move in there (Sidney Terminal), and start doing some upgrades. Then Hahn jumped to the fact that the V-Class will be spare ships soon, and that they want to look into more opportunities for them, such as drop trailer service, and overnight service. I'm not sure if he meant the V's will be run out of Sidney though.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,180
|
Post by Neil on Oct 1, 2006 10:26:29 GMT -8
No, Hahn didn't connect anything with Sidney. He just said they were examining their options there.
|
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Oct 1, 2006 10:29:23 GMT -8
I still have difficulty in believing BC Ferries is going to do anything with Sidney Terminal, and I can't really comprehend why they purchased it. I mean, we're talking about a terminal that is so small it can be smuggled out of Canada altogether by hiding it under the stamp on a first-class postage letter.
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Oct 2, 2006 20:58:30 GMT -8
As seen Friday morning while passing the Sidney ferry terminal on Lochside Drive (the second picture is immediately to the right of the first, btw):   Could this work barge be associated with any upgrades? It was idle as we passed. |
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Oct 5, 2006 18:45:10 GMT -8
That parking lot is for the boat launch next door. The loading slip you see here has been in use since... oh, rats... 2003 and has become the prototype for all new WSF construction. The cable-and-counterbalance system is finished at WSF.
|
|
|
|
Post by Retrovision on Oct 6, 2006 7:31:28 GMT -8
Continuation of the broadcast of what I recorded from BCFS' recent AGM in Victoria a couple weeks ago...
Introduction to the Open Forum
A member of one of the Gulf Islands' Advisory Boards
...This seems to reflect the views of the majority, of maybe a half dozen members, of the public who spoke up. No less than two times during the AGM's Public Forum did I hear this same kind of long-winded blowing of smoke; but why, for what purpose?
Gary Coons, NDP MLA
Talking to a question about the clean-up efforts offered by BCFS to counter the negative effects on the environment in and around Wright Sound since the sinking of their most-important northern vessel, the M.V. Queen of the North - Reaction of David Hahn, CEO - BCFS, to comments from the public
David Hahn on Passenger-Only Ferries
|
|
