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Post by Ferryman on Jun 12, 2006 21:51:12 GMT -8
This is the topic that has been on my mind for the last couple of days that I have decided to bring up, probably once again...
BC Ferries was started, to provide another link between Vancouver, and Vancouver Island. CPR, and Blackball were becomming an unreliable service with their aging ships, and labour strikes. We all know the story from there....
But once the Ferries started, that was beginning of a new vital link. This was, and is the highway to and from Vancouver Island, and all of the other Gulf Islands which are connected by the service as well.
Ferries make it easier to bring food, clothes, fuel, and other items that are required to keep things going on an Island. They're a mode of transportation to keep families connected.
We have been spoiled with our ferry system. We can take the ferry pretty much whenever we want during the day, as a Ferry leaves to a destination pretty much every hour or so. There's capacity for 100s of cars to go at one time. Once we're aboard, we can proceed on to the passenger decks to enjoy the scenery in a comfortable seat, with a good food service nearby. The young kids can go play in a kids play area, while the slightly older kids play in the arcade. The ladies can shop around in a gift shop, while the men enjoy the latest National Post, or Auto Trader depending on what type of person they are. This is quite some highway!
In the year 2003, the Provincial Government made the decision to cut nearly all ties with the service. BC Ferries was now a private company, and has since been competing with the rest of the world.
So what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say, is it right to have a highway operate as a business that is running for profit? Don't get me wrong, I appeciate all of the services we have on our ships in BC. That's why I took such an interestin in them. What's all of your view on this??
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Post by Dane on Jun 12, 2006 23:28:05 GMT -8
They're mandated to fill a whole in the highway system, and they recieve funding as such. Rte 2 also recieves federal dollars to be part of the TransCanada.
Highway, first and foremost.
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Post by Balfour on Jun 13, 2006 0:13:24 GMT -8
I agree that the government needs to put lots of money into BCF, but not decide on what kind of ships will be built (i.e Fastcats). Leave those kind of decisions to the experts.
It's also nice to have such wonderful amentities like Whitespot and Bread Garden, etc... I prefer to call it a highway with business oppurtunity.
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Post by Retrovision on Jun 13, 2006 0:37:44 GMT -8
I agree that the government needs to put lots of money into BCF, but not decide on what kind of ships will be built (i.e Fastcats). Leave those kind of decisions to the experts.
The power/control over public coastal transportation in British Columbia's waters, under Canada's system of governance and how power is divided between the feds and the provinces, should have never been handed over to our Kangaroo-Court-Legislature , and especially not so swiftly. |
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Post by islander on Jun 13, 2006 15:48:30 GMT -8
BC Ferries was changed from a crown corporation to a "private" business, BUT the province still owns the ships, terminals and facilities. Essentially BC Ferries was dumped because it's a political hot potato. Neither the liberals or NDP wanted to deal with BC Ferries anymore because of all the problems that are associated with it. Now we have a system which most of us HAVE to use but that we have NO control over. It's laughable really. BC Ferries can go out and spend millions of dollars on putting wooden floors in terminals, painting all the ships new colours and sending out new uniforms, but when it comes to things like safety issues(i.e putting another officer in the QoN like the union had asked) they have no money. BC Ferries is(for the most part) an essential part of our highway system. It's a fact of living on the coast.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 13, 2006 16:34:52 GMT -8
I think this topic has been pretty well covered. I would perhaps take issue with Chris on his assertion that we're 'spoiled' with our ferry service. Any coastal population, be it Norway, Scotland, Japan, North Carolina or B.C. needs a marine transportation system to connect the pieces. We have highways, roads, buses, and what have you, on land, and bridges and ferries over water. It's not a gift from heaven- it's paid for out of the public purse (partly taxes), and it's necessary for this part of the world to function. Simple as that. Schools, ferries, police forces, sanitation services- we're entitled to them by virtue of our citizenship, and the taxes we pay. By the way, Chris, I think you're insulting men when you suggest that because of our gender, we're more likely to read the National Post. I'd read Cosmopolitan before I'd read that rag.  |
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Post by Scott on Jun 13, 2006 18:16:13 GMT -8
I agree with most of what's been on here so far. The ferries are our marine highway and the people of BC, through the government, should have control over it. I would agree that there have be some improvements since BC Ferries has been privatized... there have been some innovative ideas and probably an overall improvement in the experience of travelling on the ferries. And I also like how the management is more responsible in how they spend money. But I don't like the idea that they're there to make a profit, regardless of what the needs of the coastal communities are, or the safety of the ships.
The service should be affordable and accessable to everyone in the province... and that will liekly only happen with at least some kind of government involvement. The government still does have a say in BC Ferries operations through the Coastal Ferry Act, but I'm not sure if that's enough or not. I don't like how BC Ferries, as a private corporation, now has no responsibility to disclose information through the Freedom of Information Act. We still own them, and they're operating on our tax dollars... so we should be able to know whatever we want about them.
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Post by Ferryman on Jun 13, 2006 19:49:35 GMT -8
I think this topic has been pretty well covered. I would perhaps take issue with Chris on his assertion that we're 'spoiled' with our ferry service. Any coastal population, be it Norway, Scotland, Japan, North Carolina or B.C. needs a marine transportation system to connect the pieces. We have highways, roads, buses, and what have you, on land, and bridges and ferries over water. It's not a gift from heaven- it's paid for out of the public purse (partly taxes), and it's necessary for this part of the world to function. Simple as that. Schools, ferries, police forces, sanitation services- we're entitled to them by virtue of our citizenship, and the taxes we pay. By the way, Chris, I think you're insulting men when you suggest that because of our gender, we're more likely to read the National Post. I'd read Cosmopolitan before I'd read that rag. I know most Ferry systems today, are similar to the one we have right here. But we have to keep in mind, not all that long ago, there were steam ships making the trip across the Strait, and back then, that was a huge deal. There were probably ships that held a bunch of guys working down in the bowels of the ship shovelling coal, to make sure that ship keeps going. Plus the ships would probably make only a few round trips a week. That was the highway that kept things going on the Island. I wouldn't know of the amenities on board those ships, with whether or not there was washrooms, and any sort of food service. But comparing that to today, this is one luxurious highway we have. That goes for pretty much anywhere. This is what we need now to be happy with making a trip across quite a wide open stretch of water. We could just simply have a bare bones ship, with a car deck, and no passenger deck. But that wouldn't be right. I know things have changed alot since those days, but it's definitely something to remember. This is what leads me to, is it even right for someone to come along and say, "I want to make as much money as I can out of this"? Remember the strike that happened just shortly after the Ferries went private? That was about all of the workers wanting more money, which is fine, we all do. We're all experiencing a huge inflation in the economy, and we all want a piece of it. The part I really didn't like, was when they shut down all operations. Luckily there was still an air service, and 2 Ferry routes coming from the States, to make sure there was still food on store shelves. I'm quite proud of our fleet, and we are lucky to have it. It obviously just didn't fall from heaven, as it took a while to build. What would BC be like without BC Ferries system? What would have happened if Captain Peabody, and the CPR kept the Ferries going? Brian Williams, where are you? Back me up please...  As to Mr. Hornbyguys comment about the National Post: I wasn't trying to say every man reads the National Post, but if you rather go and read the Cosmopolitan, by all means, all the power to you! I personally wouldn't waste my time on either of the two, because I don't need reading material to keep me occupied while there's unlimited amounts of beautiful scenery going by. But if it were raining out, I think I would look for the Auto Trader myself...... |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 13, 2006 20:12:27 GMT -8
Chris, I don't think we're in disagreement here at all, if I understand you to be saying that the ferries are an essential public utility, and not a 'for profit' venture.
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Post by Ferryman on Jun 13, 2006 20:18:57 GMT -8
Hornbyguy, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to have any hard feelings here either. Just making sure my point is getting across right.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 13, 2006 20:53:20 GMT -8
Chris, I don't think we're in disagreement here at all, if I understand you to be saying that the ferries are an essential public utility, and not a 'for profit' venture. Maybe this is me just being technical on "words", but I don't think the issue is as much as being "for profit" than it is to be " against loss". I don't think there's a realistic chance for a ferry company to make a consistent profit on most of the coastal routes. However, private operators would want to limit their losses. So I think that the problem with private operators is that they would place too much focus on limiting losses, instead of on providing essential service levels. Profit's not a bad word to me. But the "limiting losses" is to me the big issue: There are lots of ferry routes in BC where big regular recurring losses are "normal", and so that's why it's important to keep that route public, as the Gov't would fund the route's loss. A private operator wouldn't be able to sustain repeated losses, and so services would likely be cut. In most businesses, a modest profit is needed, in order to pay down debt-principal, and to purchase new capital-assets. In that respect, even not-for-profit organizations need to make a small profit sometimes. |
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Doug
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Lurking within...the car deck.
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Post by Doug on Jun 13, 2006 21:37:08 GMT -8
Like any private company, BC Ferries' core business plan is indeed for profit...but the contract protects the service itself. But remember this: a marine crossing is much different than a land crossing. Comparing a ferry service to a highway is not right.... Being an essential service (by the way, Vancouver Island has substantially expanded since the steamship days), BC Ferries offers fairly low fares on most of its routes and doesn't push its ancillary services (cafeteria, gift shop, etc...) on you like they would in Europe. However, the ancillary services (which are a CHOICE) are usually attractive to passengers...and that's how they make their profit. That profit, as well as necessary government funding, pays for the smaller essential services on smaller islands. Had minor Gulf Island routes been privatized even further, they wouldn't receive profits from ancillary services due to short crossings nor would they receive government funding...hence the fares would rise as it is their only source of income. Don't you see...? Sometimes big companies can be good. I don't mind BC Ferries trying to make a profit, but alas, service should be the top priority. *Just to compare prices...a 60 km ferry crossing costs $10 for one passenger...i calculated that DRIVING the same distance with an average car would actually (believe it or not) be $7-$8, not including insurance. Also, the ferry trip is more spacious than your car. |
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Post by Scott on Jun 13, 2006 21:44:11 GMT -8
In most businesses, a modest profit is needed, in order to pay down debt-principal, and to purchase new capital-assets. In that respect, even not-for-profit organizations need to make a small profit sometimes. I'd agree with this. There should be (and I think there is) an effort to make money to help pay off debt, finance new vessels, etc. All I would be worried about is a purely private business having a monopoly and paying millions to its CEO's and managers and shareholders... making people rich off a public service. That's fine for banking and computer companies and mining companies.. etc. but I don't think it's right for our ferries. Now, I don't see this happening here yet. And I don't know if it's even possible under the current guidelines and regulations. And like you said, on most routes it wouldn't be possible for anyone to get rich off of running a ferry. |
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Post by Mike C on Jun 14, 2006 8:07:04 GMT -8
It appears to be a company now, a highway then.
It services the Trans-Canada on Rte 2, and Hwy 17 on Rte 1.
They're trying to make money, because they have a fleet to maintain, terminals to fix, and routes to run. Since they've almost gone completley private, after being dumped by Lord Gord, they need money. Back in 1959, money was not an issue, they were supported by Bennet & his friends.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Jun 28, 2006 22:23:22 GMT -8
Sorry Chris, for the very late support -- but thanks for your appeal! Sigh, my opinion of BCFs daily operation does change, but the original mandate is still clear. The early years may have been cruel, monopolistic and even confiscatory. CP and Blackball's routes were the targets, while those companies were crippled by strikes and not motivated to improve service even in good times. BC Ferries' grab of Coast Ferries southern services, and Gulf Island Ferries may not have been necessary. Perhaps it was empire-building on the taxpayers' dime. The small routes were sufficient in family ownership. However, we embarked on a good philosophy in 1960. All British Columbian towns are entitled to swift, reliable transportation. Most of us have publicly funded highways today; in the 1940's to early 1960's, many interior towns were isolated. Hwy 3 from Hope to Princeton was finished in 1949. Hwy 16 east from PG to Jasper wasn't built until 1967. Vancouver Island waited until the early 80's before paved 19 reached Port Hardy (yes, I drove the Canfor roads past Sayward in the ol' days). We still have to decide: is BCF an opportunity to make money, like the enterprising vision of WestJet, or is BCF a civil-service branch of the Highways Dept? Damn! it is both. I want to embrace the WestJet philosophy on our major routes. Service, service .. and service, for travellers. But ... BCF is still committed to hauling one last truck from Campbell River to Quadra, with a few boozers comin'home from too many at the Discovery Inn. (been there, too) BCF is also a school bus, a grocery getter and a vital link for coastal folks. We made the commitment in 1960, and we'd better live up to it.  |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 28, 2006 22:45:33 GMT -8
There is an opportunity to make a profit on the major routes, and thereby fund a good part of the cost of the smaller volume routes. That seems like a good compromise to me.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Jun 29, 2006 0:50:04 GMT -8
Yes, I agree -- make the major routes pay.
Perhaps the WestJet example is worth following, at least in spirit.
Air Canada and Canadian (CP Air) were despised in the early '90's for their inability to make money or provide good service. They didn't exactly merge; CP collapsed, and AC hoovered up the bits that looked useful.
Air Canada by then was no longer our National Airline, but just a piece of failing AMR (American Airlines, et al) of Dallas Texas. AMR went bust, and cast AC into a soap-opera of 5c on the dollar takeovers, a charade that ain't over yet.
(Clue to BC Ferries privatizers: ex-public utilities that don't earn solid profits will be pinballs in the speculators' arcade)
WestJet does show us a possible way. Out of the wreckage of the Canadian airline biz, WestJet has gone from nowhere to #2.
Zip, Tango, Jaz are all toast ... we should take a lesson from WestJest. Perhaps not their anti-union stance (which pains me), but their positive, customer-first attitude.
Y'all will accept this example: Monolopist Air Canada just announced that they won't carry any pets in the cabin after September 2006. AC and other air carriers routinely kill dogs in cargo by neglect; when caught, they shrug and deliver your pup's corpse without apology.
WestJet's policy: "Your pet will fly with you, and that policy won't change." Dogs or not, it's a demonstration of positive customer service attitude, one that BCF could learn from.
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Jun 29, 2006 7:41:40 GMT -8
WestJet is the best and The Way to Go!!!!!!!
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Post by Queen of Nanaimo Teen on Jun 29, 2006 10:01:19 GMT -8
No,no,no,no,no,no my friend, you have it all wrong! Air Canada is the way to go! much more luxurious, and better all together!
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Post by Mike C on Jun 29, 2006 13:40:39 GMT -8
In the interest of preventing ferry-fan-airline wars, I must say that they are of equal, erm, goodness.
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Post by Quinsam on Jun 29, 2006 14:15:22 GMT -8
I like Thomas Cook and Easy Jet.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,307
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Post by Neil on Jun 29, 2006 16:07:32 GMT -8
Reminder: original thread topic?
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Post by Balfour on Jun 29, 2006 19:52:07 GMT -8
don't make me push the lock button!
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Jun 30, 2006 10:07:50 GMT -8
yeah, hornby guy's right, lol!
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Post by BrianWilliams on Jul 5, 2006 0:57:10 GMT -8
In Chris' earlier post, there was a minimal service hinted at; one I hadn't thought of.
Imagine a super-cheap crossing to Vancouver Island. Carrier Princess-style barges, maximizing vehicle capacity. No passenger accomodations, no Triple-O burger counters.
Just a car deck, or multiple car decks, with everyone confined to their vehicles for the 100-minute trip.
It could work, if we got the Federal safety people to agree.
But I'd hate that solution.
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