Vessels - 2 missing

[Low Light Mike]

Quinsam:

please read page-1 of this thread for the answer to your question.

[kylefossett]

cascade said:

With replacement vessels coming on-line - then BCFS will be a position - which they never have been in the past - to pick which vessels they want to keep and which ones are sold.

Currently how many vessels have they held back in reserve and mid-life refits ect... There is always at least around 3 to 5 vessels at Deas

there is room for 3 larger vessels at deas. there is usually never an extra vesse in the summer unless you count ones that have broken down and need emergency repairs

[Political Incorrectness]

they usually have 4 vessels at deas but if an S class comes they got to back in at farthest berth to the fraser

[BrianWilliams]

Stormaway III was referred to earlier (Keats-Gambier-Langdale service):



Stormaway is not a BCF asset as far as I know. She's chartered FROM Kona Winds to operate a BCF schedule, that's all. In any case, sturdy Stormaway is not much larger than a Spirit lifeboat.

I do recall that Bill Bennett's regime sold and leased back much of the BCF fleet in the early 1980's. I don't know which ships, and the length of their leases.

A couple of points must be true: the leases couldn't possibly have been for longer than the vessels' operational lives; and all maintenance costs must have been borne by the operator (BCF).

I thought then (and still do) that the lease-backs were an accounting maneuver by a government deepening its deficit and debt, but pledged to financial responsibility.

Remember, kids, this was when we built the BC Rail line to Tumbler Ridge on the taxpayer's dime. Coal, valuable as gold to Japan ... 20 years later, the BCR Tumbler Ridge line is a dusty, rail-less trail to nowhere.

The ferries at least, are still in service.

[BrianWilliams]

I won't be popular for saying this, even in my own household:

BC Ferries : Double your fares! That's right, double the mainline fares. CDN$ 90 for car and driver is very much in line with first-class ferry services elsewhere .... still cheaper, in fact.

If Harbourlynx gains a few passengers, good. BCF shouldn't carry foot travellers like me to Nanaimo. How stupid to drive 33 km to HB, and pay $12 for a day's parking.

Double the fares right now on Routes 1 and 2. We British Columbians have paid for vessels and terminals serving these routes, and we ain't seen *dick* in measurable payback.

Sorry, pals, if I don't start this debate now, it will be forced on us very soon.

[Scott]

Why shouldn't they double fares?

BC Ferries is making lots of money on Routes 1 and 2.

The government still subsidizes BC Ferries... it's not a completely private company.

They can't raise fares.. according to their contract.

[YZFNick]

If they double their fares, I'll take to the skies! Westjet, Jazz, Central Mountain Air, Baxter Air. There are many choices.

[Political Incorrectness]

admin said:

Why shouldn't they double fares?

BC Ferries is making lots of money on Routes 1 and 2.

The government still subsidizes BC Ferries... it's not a completely private company.

They can't raise fares.. according to their contract.

John the problem is you double fares then people will use another service instead

[Ferryman]

Yeah, if they doubled fares with the current fleet making it about $22.00 for a walk. I would way rather take the time to drive through downtown Vancouver and get on the Lynx and pay a tiny bit more and get there faster! Or if I were to drive it would cost around $100.00 one way. With that price I could fly and get there in half an hour! Then I'm sure the Government would try to get them to lower their prices, or start a 'new affordable' ferry service between the Mainland and the Island...recreating the BCF history basically..

[BrianWilliams]

I apologize - a bit - for what may be called trolling. "Double the fares" is a bit inflammatory.

I do want see some debate (already there are good points made) on BCFs costs and revenues.

It may be true that the Routes 1 and 2 are already earning an operating profit. Does that income provide enough reserve to acquire new vessels in a timely, rather than political manner? And improve terminals; add services when demand increases?

The noted socialist WAC Bennett created BCF because postwar coastal shipping companies were going broke. Their service was substandard and worsening. Black Ball and CP both had labour problems in 1957-58.

They couldn't pay needed wage increases in the inflationary 1950's. Some of their best seamen left for better jobs on towboats, those who stayed on the private ferries went on strike.

Bennett's vision was a ferry service operated as an extension of the public highways. Low fares, heavily-subsidized by the booming resource economy of the time. It worked then, and it is still working, sort of.

I don't think we'll ever escape that model. Routes 1 and 2 are the high-capacity money-spinners in the BCF system.

Cascade: Cross-Channel style privatizing won't be good for us. It is BC; we are committed, properly, to provide scheduled marine service to southern islands and upcoast towns. Routes 1 and 2 provide the cash flow to make this possible.

I do endorse alternatives, like Harbourlynx, HeliJet, Barker and Harbour Air. And all the freight truck ferries the private sector can muster. But, I can't support a multitude of private operators duplicating BCFs few high-volume car ferry routes.

That's cherry-picking, and will cripple our full coastal service.

[BrianWilliams]

"...you may ask why don't people who live in other parts of BC get a cash backhander to the same amount? "

Last point first. The 22% of British Columbians who live outside the Georgia Basin receive 60% of highway construction and -especially- maintenance funds.

It's inevitable, of course: snow clearing begins in October and ends in late April. Good road maintenance, as practiced in BC, requires roadbed replacement down to bedrock every few years in severe climatic zones - which is most of the province.

I don't resent these costs. Example: we have a highway, BC 37, that runs 500 miles from Hazelton to the Yukon line. Perhaps 4,000 people live along 37's route. 37 is open all year, with brief closures when it's flooded in spring, avalanched in winter, and flooded (again) in fall.

We keep the road open because our fellow British Columbians deserve access to the outside world. Every resident on the 37 corridor costs more -per capita- in transportation expense than any BCF passenger.

Perhaps it is a socialist ideal, or maybe it's a frontier neighbour-helps-neighbour philosophy.

Capuccino sippers on Vancouver's Robson Street may be surprised that their 7% sales tax is paying for a road in northern BC.

[Scott]

And us in the Lower Mainland get our share of tax dollars as well. Skytrain, RAV, highway expansions, bridge building, convention centers... etc. Sure, the Islanders are subsidized.. maybe more than many British Columbians, but I don't think it's as much as people would think if you consider what Brian has pointed out along with other government spending elsewhere. Each part of the province has its own unique expense to government.

[BrianWilliams]

"Raising fares for what purpose ? To pay for new vessels? Well they can go the market and raise all the funds they need - BCFS have very good cash flow. It was very easy for them to have $500M."

Maybe BCF could raise another half-billion on the bond market, but that is debt. Payable on E-Z terms, I'm sure, but only net income pays off debt.

Though I meant "doubling the fares" as an incentive to discussion, you do focus the argument very well.

Net profit, not cash flow, is the key to a surviving coastal ferry service.

We have two models to choose: one is Bennett's public utility ideal -also followed by Washington State Ferries and Alaska's Marine Highway; the other is the new course set by BCF: to be self-funding.

If we choose self-funding ... well, my "doubling the main line fares" suggestion is right on the mark.

There is little point in raising fares on minor services. Most southern inter-island or North Coast travellers have no choice, but the volume is too small to increase income.

I don't want to drive people away from BCF on the main line routes, but a competitor will find it hard to duplicate BCF terminals, marshalling areas and road access.

And no way, ever, would I grant interlopers access to our publicly-funded BCF docks.

[BrianWilliams]

"On the docks issue - these are owned by BCFTA .."

And that agency is an inheritor of BC Ferries' landward assets. Separate on paper, but Castor and Pollux in reality.

You are exactly right on a major point: Glen Clark's juvenile ego nearly wrecked BC Ferries.

400+ million dollars were spent on the wrong ships for our service. Every nickel of that could have gone to refits, new construction and service improvements.

I endorse BC Ferries' structure as a corporation today, but remember, 100% of the ownership is in BC citizens' hands.

[YZFNick]

With the staffing issue: Many of these jobs are jobs that keep people in their communities and are often some of the best jobs in that community. As older ferry workers move on in these communities, there will be young people ready to take their places. Most high school graduates (at least where I'm from) moved to cities to work. Graduates moving to the city to attend post secondary school is all right, but when they move to work in retail and construction it's a real loss for the communities in BC. Someone who would stay in the community to work for BC Ferries is a real plus because they would end up moving to the city to work if there is nothing available where they grew up. It's not necessarily a good thing when I see as many people in Calgary that I went to school with than I do returning to Quadra.