Bc Ferries privitization

[Queen of Nanaimo Teen]

I heard on the radio people were thinking of having a vote. I think it should be government because all these ferry disasters are happening because bc ferries is cutting corners.SSo I think it should be government operated.

[Political Incorrectness]

I am not sure because the government would fund but then less services maybe have services for the ferries be private and the government owns and operates the vessels and have a coustomer service commitie so that you can still have good service

[Doug]

By the looks of the service now vs the Crown corporation...I'm going with private. I could be wrong, but the customer seems to be getting more choice now...I like choice.... HOWEVER, BC Ferries IS cutting corners on the engineering department and that problem should be fixed. We've had a reliable ferry service for 43 years, lets not end it regardless of a new operator. Keep the engines in maintenance AND give the customer choice...where is all that profit the company makes going?

[Balfour]

I like how BCF is getting more active in improving service. They are making good investment in customer service and in fleet improvement. Way more progress seen than what I can remember in the 90s besides the Spirits.

[Doug]

I'll post more of my opinions when I have time, possibly this weekend....

[Curtis]

Whether it's private or not depends on the Next government if it's the same form of the NDP we have now and they get voted they turn them back into the Crown Corp but if the next Liberal leader is like our current premier cutting helth care schools privitizing BCF and I think they did privitize BC Rail as well and who knows all he was doing was focusing on BC's low economy maybe this term he'll be better... he'd better be but anyway anything could happen I say have a Hybrid company of private and public but if they go back to public they need to focus on passenger services but maybe the Dogwodd will come out of retirement and be combined with the recent logo and the V being put on the front door of the ships again it would be like the first logo only the shade of blue they use now instead of the Pastel blue colour so anyway the ships need to be refitted to the new interior look and all this new stuff if they go to private again but combineing the 2 ways would be good

[YZFNick]

The main thing I have a problem with regarding private operations is the 'minimum service levels.' It seems that the schedules are being adjusted to make the most amount of money possible with little concern for it's primary objective: Moving people from one side of the water to the other quickly. When you hear about ferries running 5% slower to conserve fuel things don't sound good. A large advantage of being a crown corporation is the savings in utility costs that are passed onto the citizens of the province. BC Ferries would get a power discount from BC Hydro, a break on property leases from the Crown, a bulk fuel discount under the province's plan. But I'm a left wing whacko, I like my governments big and the education/health care money flowing.

[cascade]

The main problem in been a "Crown" business is the lack of a clear "Commercial Mandate" from the government of the day to run - operate a Ferry business.
They think there is a bottomless pit of money and Politician all want there say - total mess.

In researching some history on a vessel - I came across a Hassard - Parliament minutes from 1994 - and a few MLA's were debating about a vessel which all three wanted on there "Route" - forgetting that this is a business for the general public. The route was not suitable for the vessel - as it was linked to a sludge hammer to crack a small nut.

[YZFNick]

1994 eh? That was probably a squabble over the Skeena Queen. Us Quadrites were supposed to get that ship after being shut out from the Cap and Cumberland. We deduced that there are a lot of retired MLA's living on Saltsprings hence they get the Skeena Queen and we're stuck with the PRQ for the next 40 years.

Although a lack of a mandate is apprant under a crown corporation. The current BC Ferries mandate makes it so the corporation will extract as much money from BC Citizen's pockets that it legally take. Where I grew up, we relied on the ferry as our only link to Campbell River and services. Although Quadra's population is large for an island (3000 people, second to Saltspring), most essential services were in Campbell River. I'm talking about the Hospital, dentists, junior and senior high school, college. All the inventory from the stores on Quadra comes over on the ferry from Campbell River, fuel loads come over on tuesdays. Most working people on Quadra work in Campbell River. When you need to take the ferry every day and rely on that link for the necessitites of life, it's not very comforting that you need to open your wallet and BC Ferries Services extracts the maximum legal amount from that wallet. There's a point when you're better hitching your horse to the wharf, taking your 14 footer across Discovery Passage and driving your car (which is now parked in Campbell River) and going about your business in town.

As the costs of life on these small islands increases, it will trend toward being an upscale cottage island. The families who have been there 4-6 generations will be forced off into our clogged cities while Reginald Higenbottom III, wife Dearie and small dog Trixie will be the only paying customers on the Powell River Queen while on their way to their summer cottage on Drew Harbour.

[Engineer]

Like I said before, the private company is here to make money and that only... guess who will pay in the end??
How much for a ferry ticket you say lol lol
its coming..........

[Low Light Mike]

Public or Private, either way we coastal people have to pay. Whether it's a high fare, or low fare & taxes, it's the same.

Unless you don't pay taxes, or have kids that will pay taxes for today's service.

If you are part of the province, then you pay for Big-Government. And your kids and grandkids will be paying for your Big-Government too.

[BrianWilliams]

History, friends, is not just a study of dead folks and old wars.

BC Ferries was created because all private coastal services were failing in the 1950's. CP and Black Ball were crippled by strikes, but poisonous labour relations were not the real issue.

The companies could not make enough money to fund daily operations; never mind increasing trips, buying new boats and expanding terminals.

Washington State Ferries was BC's model: that state, flush with Federal money, consolidated the Puget Sound services at the end of WW2.

British Columbia waited until 1958... and waited. Ottawa offered promises, but did not deliver subsidies to CP, Black Ball, Union Steamships and Coast Ferries.

BC's ardently non-socialist regime acted correctly -I think- but with brutality. We bought strike-bound Black Ball's assets at the point of a gun: "our price, or no price".

CP refused the threat, and soldiered on with a fading service for 15 more years.

So was BC Ferries born. 40 years later, the economics have not changed very much.

BC Ferries has a small population base, 4 million folks in all, most of whom have never seen a ferry. But, Vancouver Island's prosperity has increased many times, much of it due to BCF's frequent, inexpensive service.

That was WAC Bennett's vision, and I have to agree he was right.

Fully privatize BC Ferries? No way, never. For one thing, no sane investor would buy the Northern routes or the inter-island services; and if we sold the mainline routes alone, we British Columbians must be collectively insane.

We are not, so it won't happen.

[Curtis]

That would be too crazy to sell the Main route they're trying to get rid of the money losers get a smaller crew or it will never make alot of money but if we privitize routes we might get some competition which is unlikely but who knows

[Quinsam]

ahem, some of the minor routes are necessary, such as SB-FH, and NH-GI, and then some are not, such as MB-BB, but that route is necessary in the winter or when an accident occurs on the Malahat or anywhere else between Langford and Mill Bay.

[cascade]

I can see the BC Government keeping the "golden" share in BCFS - that is 51% - this would never be sold.

I can also see the five main terminals not been touched - nor the routes from them. That is Horseshoe Bay, TW, Swartz Bay, Departure Bay & Duke Point.

As for the smaller - Gulf Island - that requires a very different approach to the main routes - and could be sold off. The Mid Island route - problem here is lack of growth - pop wise - so needs to be subsidies - again a small operator could do a better job. The Northern Routes - this could be sold off and a new business model worked out that does make money. The local small internal routes around Vancouver - again this could be sold off to another transport company and cross trade - link ups.

There is a Ferry Commissioner and license system now in place - so why set it up if you are not going to open some of the doors to private competition?

[cascade]

Nick,

The debate - Hassard minutes (1994) was about the Powell River route and TW to Gulf Island route.

In the 80's I have come across - 7 different debates about movement - placement of certain vessels on key route where an MLA has a special interest. So who was - or is running BC Ferries ? A CEO or a bunch of MLA's ??

[cascade]

Brian,

I partly agree with your comments. But WAC Bennett was partly - if not fully responsible for the final strike that killed off any private ferry operator in BC waters.

As reported in a "Master" degree - UVIC - by the former Mayor of Saanich - he had access to Bennett's papers and it appears from his research that Bennett engaged in the black art of politics at its highest level. Bennett had laid the foundations for BC Ferries two years before the final strike - hence how he was able to react - act so quickly. Smart - street smart politician. You are correct about wanting to do - be better than WSF - our southern cousin from across the water. You and I are of the same age group and therefore I am sure you remember the them and us - between BC - Washington.
The Ferries also proved over the years and well before 1960 - that they are a very good cash flow - cow. Part of any micro economic cycle is keeping cash flowing inside your own domain - ie inside BC.

My view is that the BC Government of what ever day - has over the last 40 plus years - time to get it right. They have failed.

They need a mixture of Government and private operators - where the best managers have a clear career path and can move between the private & public bodies, that way the Tax payers benefits and so do the customers - which are the same - mostly - as you add in the tourist element to the Coast.

[Doug]

Cascade, people hate the idea of BC Ferries being private let alone MORE private operators, especially from Europe, coming in here and infesting the place. The little companies will need all necessary sources of profit to survive, so the fares would go up. No one would approve of such a disaster, nor would I. I hate it when large icon companies to the Province are sold off to different countries. Think about the people here, many of their protests are reasonable, such as one for more private operators. I'd rather see a bridge to the Island than see a bunch of smaller operators take over. BC Ferries was put in place to END private operator problems, and it is secured under the contract by the Government, so NO MORE PRIVATE OPERATORS RUNNING THE ESSENTIAL ROUTES. People are loyal to the ships there Cascade, not here. You can't just go contracting out routes disregarding the public (or passengers) input.

[Dane]

cascade said:

As for the smaller - Gulf Island - that requires a very different approach to the main routes - and could be sold off. The Mid Island route - problem here is lack of growth - pop wise - so needs to be subsidies - again a small operator could do a better job. The Northern Routes - this could be sold off and a new business model worked out that does make money. The local small internal routes around Vancouver - again this could be sold off to another transport company and cross trade - link ups.

There is a Ferry Commissioner and license system now in place - so why set it up if you are not going to open some of the doors to private competition?

To start with the end of that post, it's set up with provate competition in mind. That is obvious, and has been made relativly clear.

The Gulf Islands have a public ferry system for the same reason they have public roads. By that reasoning, even having a debate on whether ferries should be private is invalid.

[Low Light Mike]

I think it's safe to conclude that Doug is against privitization, and likes big-government.

Again, I counter that it's not just a fare-increase thats bad....but a tax-increase is also bad.

Big government = big taxes.

Questions to Doug: are you a taxpayer? do you care about the province's finances? Do you have a fundamental belief of "entitlement"....that the government is obligated to provide the province with these ferry routes?

What is your utopia? Is it free-ferries, (and also free-post-secondary-education)?

Is BC Ferries a transportation company, or a government service?

I suspect you would say that it should be a government service....but one that has to act like it's a transportation company.

Therein lies the conflict: It needs to act like a transpo company in order to stay efficient.....but yet there is strong ideological arguments to keep it from getting too company-like.

I think that the fast-cats are a good example of how a big government ferry company can't work in BC.

flame away.....

[YZFNick]

The current encarnation of BCF is suffering for the mismanagement of the company by the government in the 90's. The fast cats were shoved down their throats. A private company would've told the government where they could go with their fast cats, end of story on that.

BC Ferries services was given an old fleet and is expected to replace it. There is no way they'll replace 21 ferries in 15 years. 10 ferries in 15 years would be a more accurate prediction. If they can get through this rough patch of no new ferries coming in and the old ones breaking down then they'll make a lot more friends on the left coast.

An increase in taxes from expanded or upgraded ferry service is the same as an increase in taxes for RAV or the Northeast Leg, or the Golden Ears Bridge. It's a big province, lots of projects go on.

[Low Light Mike]

Nick:

what is the "North East Leg". I'm thinking Peace-River country......or is this something on lower-mainland.

what is it?

thanks

[Balfour]

I think he's talking about Port Coquitlam, and Port Moody.

[YZFNick]

Northeast Skytrain/LRT from Lougheed Mall towards the Tricities and possibly Pitt Meadows.

[Scott]

Looks like it will be at-grade electric trains in the NE sector.