Ferry future

[BrianWilliams]

*Sigh*

That's a great Horseshoe Bay photo, thanks for that Doug!

Really folks, the arguments all make sense ... but do we have to destroy the reason we live in southern BC, to increase BC's prosperity? Let's learn from Southern California.

I saw - in 2000 - the last orange grove in Orange County. It's in Tustin, with 12-lane I-405 on one side, and two 6-lane state highways bounding it. A big sign announced: "The Tustin Citrus Orchard, a County Park."

As far as my eye could see, in the summer smog, were highways, endless tracts of big houses, and more highways.

Hmmpph. We're lucky to live here in southern BC, for sure. We had better be very careful.

Salt Spring Island is too-popular, maybe. But in Ganges Harbour, our pal's Sheena can graze for mussels. Her only competition were two eagles and an oystercatcher. Sheena munched:



On Newcastle Island, the water is deep, green and clean, as it is on Gabriola.



Should we give these places up to more cars -- more pointless commuting?

[cascade]

I think there is mileage in talking to our First Nation friends and see if something can be done off the causeway - Tsawwassen - but she is a bit exposed - so other side of Roberts Bank.

There is the road network in place.

I liked that picture - I have one of Brentwood from 1923 and it does look a lot different - then today. You can see why they put the terminal there in the first place.

I think on the HB picture - again the people saw the high ridges as possible wind protection for the vessel.

[Political Incorrectness]

I also know there are some terminal immprovements needed might as well start a list
Tsawwassen
Berth 3 completly replace with Spirit sized berth
Berth 4 same
passenger area for berth 3+4 tear down and rebuild to look like berth 5
have an overhead area to get to the quay from berth 5
Swartz bay
replace berth 2
berth 2,3,4,5 passenger area tear down and rebuild
berth 2 passenger loading span replace
build new passenger loading span for berth 3
Horseshoe Bay
none
Departure Bay
none (move it all out)
Duke Point
ad two or three berths
make bigger holding compress
add more toll booths
new concession area for duke point
also known as just turn into super terminal

these are going to needed to be done cause berth 2 (swartz bay) is 25 years old and needs replacement

[Doug]

Who cares about looks Dan? On another point, you pointed out BC Ferries needs to spend more on the engineering department...well the money that could be spent on those "looks" of yours could potentially be used on engineering onboard.... More Spirit sized berths? I don't believe the berths are any smaller, they just cant handle such a heavy ship at the bumpers and dolphins. But why? There are only two Spirits.... Relocating Departure Bay to Duke point is a bad idea I think, and you just have to look at bad weather. Why don't the ships sail? Because of complex docking, and Duke Point would be subject to that. Departure Bay might as well be calmer than Horseshoe Bay. I've recently looked at air photos around Departure Bay and it looks like there is still room to expand...they might have to buy out some nearby businesses but apparently Scott pointed out a vacant lot behind the terminal, a big vacant lot. Why not there for a start? Dan, you don't seem to care about what other people think about it, all of these "move the terminal" opinions are coming from you.

[Political Incorrectness]

no some of the structures are old and I dont want a day when I hear span collapses remember kingston that knocked out everything

[Ferryman]

On the little book I got on Duke Point the day it opened in June of 1997 said that another berth could easily be made if needed (I know, we knew that already) but the terminal can apparently expand to hold another 500 cars somehow.

[Scott]

I like the idea of putting any extra sailings out of Horseshoe Bay to Duke Point, and just keeping the two regular ships between Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay. Expanding Departure Bay is almost out of the question though, as someone pointed out before because access to it is so poor and it would be extremely expensive and controversial to improve access.

Just an idea, but are there any places NORTH of Nanaimo that could hold a new ferry terminal? I think a lot of ferry traffic is going north and the highway might be more accessable and closer to the water north of Nanaimo.

I'm not convinced that doing a lot of expansion for vehicle traffic is the way to go though. There will always be vehicles for the forseeable future, but it's getting a lot more expensive to travel with them... gas and ferry prices... and I know more and more people are walking onto the ferries and sometimes the ferries are leaving with lots of room for cars but already at passenger capacity.

I wonder if the future is going to be more high-speed or normal speed passenger services, not only to Nanaimo, but Victoria and perhaps other communities... Parksville, Courtenay, Ladysmith. Perhaps the demand isn't there yet, but unless someone comes up with a cheap alternative to fuel, in 10 years I can see that demand going way up. At least BC Ferries should be building ferries with larger passenger capacities I think... and I was sorta disappointed to see the new super C-class vessels had approximately the same ratio of passengers to cars as the old C-class vessels. I can guarentee that some days, especially the busy days, they will be leaving Horseshoe Bay with room for 50 more cars because they've reached their passenger limit.

[Koastal Karl]

Yeah I agree, WSF Super Class can carry 2500 passengers, that is more than the S class and only 144 vehicles! But BC Ferries is so into improving passenger services if they cut back on the services there would be more room for passengers and more seating so they could carry more passengers!

[Ferryman]

Before Duke Point was built, they apparently thought about putting the terminal in Ladysmith. But I forget why they decided not too, but probably because they didn't want to take the ferries through Porlier Pass (Between Galiano and Valdes Island). It would of been a pretty scenic route being much like route 1, but Porlier Pass is alot smaller than Active Pass.
I think getting off of the Island isn't that hard from Nanaimo, because if you can't get on at Departure Bay, you can usually get on at Duke Point which is 10-15 mins tops to between the two terminals. Unlike on the Mainland side, if you can't get on at Horseshoe Bay, you're looking at about an hour or more of driving to get out to Tsawwassen depending on the traffic. So if they were to build another terminal (which I doubt they will do for a while), for it to be on the Mainland side. Which way I think it should go, to either Nanaimo or Victoria, I don't know.

[hergfest]

The WSF Super Class carries 2500 passengers because they were built for the Seattle commuter runs, which mainly serve passengers.

[Koastal Karl]

yeah and they are so roomy and lots of space to move around!

[Political Incorrectness]

well I dont think that is true unless you filled it completly (like pack in everyone)

[cascade]

The world is speeding up whether we like it or not. Even in "sleepy" BC - Global trade and ways of doing business are changing - customers will start to demand more - better and in some case will agree to pay for it.

Which ever Political party that gets in when the demand is been asked for - and they promise the extra - will win.

Some VERY old fashion countries - even consider backward - and now very forward and racing quickly to get a "share" of the Global business.

I think that BC Ferries have caused a major problem with there fuel surcharge - as if they had in place the hedge strategy - then when the price of oil keeps going up - they could hold the fare. It helps all the little business on the Island's and without them - the Island Pop starts to more - looking for work. Can Vancouver support more people ? What then happens to Vancouver Island ?

Since the 1960's when they kept records on the "ridership" on the ferries - there has been very little increase in passenger figures - smaller than the increase in the birth rate. We know that the high fares BCFS charge - is killing the tourist trade - slowly. BUT People are coming to the Island - via the cruise ships in Victoria and from Aircraft. The increases in Air transport - charter flights is amazing. Cruise ships in Victoria have gone from 3 to over 318 vessels calling in to Victoria - from 2000 to 2005. A massive increase - great for Victoria and surround areas, no so good for the rest of the Island.
Soon it will be to expensive to ship off the Island - unless you own the transport link - like Seaspan - container vessels - rail links & ports.

So where does this leave BCFS - over the next ten years? They need new vessels that are cheaper to run - use less fuel and spend less time "off" line been serviced. The management of BCFS - have to look at better management practices - and cut the "head count" across the board. Why is it that WSF has less staff per customer bases / per vessels / per HQ staff - ect... no one has been able to explain that - even the MLA's can't do it - nor the Union rep's...I wonder why?

[Political Incorrectness]

so from this you are saying that BCF shouldn't have put in fuel surcharge first of all oil prices wont com down anytime soon and then BCF with go into money loser without the surcharge. and if you are saying that they should have all vessels online all the time instead of sitting are you nuts then your saying get bigger vessels or stick with the configuration which doesnt work?

[cascade]

Dan - The fuel surcharge should have stayed in place when they had it at $35 per barrel - set it for the next 12 months. No fare increase. The Oil cost will stay high for the next 12 to 18 months plus. These are old vessel and not the most "economical" in fuel terms to run / operate - hence they cost more in todays market - running cost. The new vessels coming on line in 2007 /2008 will be much more fuel efficient.

The fare increases will hurt business on the Island and smaller islands - as will there costs in wanting to export off the Island. If they can't sell there goods because they are more expensive - then over a period of time they will go out of business - with a lost of jobs.

BC Ferries is VERY important for the economical life of the Island. Hence one of the major debates about it going semi-private in the first place.

BC Ferries management screwed up big time - with a short sighted policy on raising fares / revenue streams - without a long term view on the economical life of the Islands. They will destroy business which means less people using the ferries - therefore higher costs to keep them a float.

They should have started the vessel replacement program back in the 80's after 20 years service on some of the vessels - not start it 35 years later.

If an airline - Southwest can forward purchase there fuel for the next 12 months at an average price of $26 per barrel - then why can't someone at BC Ferries do the same? These are both "Transport" type of business - which fuel plays an important part in the running of the business.

[YZFNick]

President Hahn needs to play the fuel futures market. Hopefully his brother in-law isn't getting all the fuel purchases for the company.

I like the idea of increased frequency of ships. With the money the would blow on expanding terminals, they could build a couple ships, if they increased the frequency of sailings would make increased capacity unnecessary. They should build ships that are double ended and very quick to load and unload.

[Doug]

BCF's fares are not high...and they offer a deal for commercial users anyways.

Nick: I would be assuming all of the new "22" ships to be build over the next 15 years will be double-ended or almost all of them.

[cascade]

The vessel replacement program is going to be very hurtful - lose of job's in ship yards as they will require less upgrades / maintenance. Also less crew on board - as running these new vessel require less - "below" crew - not top side crew - passengers care.

I think we will be very lucky if they bring in 10 new vessel in the next 10 years.

[CN2972South]

It would be quite easy to move the Nanaimo terminal for the Gabriola Ferry to Departure Bay, Nanaimo Regional Transit serves the Departure Bay Terminal. Could move the Nanaimo terminal to Duke Point as well, there are several Nanaimo regional Transit routes that could be easily routed into Duke Point.

[cascade]

Are you talking about adding a few bridges to the Island ?
What is the depth of the water around there ? Why not do Land reclamation if it is not to deep?
That way you expand the terminals as the road network is already in place - just move the terminal further out into the sea - provided it is not to deep.

[Political Incorrectness]

cascade we wernt talking about bridges to the island alright why the heck do that take away the ferries water is too deep anyhow

[Scott]

The cruise ship business is coming to other parts of the Island now. On Monday I saw one in Nanaimo. They were ferrying all the passengers into downtown Nanaimo and there were free shuttle buses to all the malls up the highway. I was driving into downtown Nanaimo and wondering why there were so many tourists wandering around, since it's usually kinda dead down there. All the Island people driving along the waterfront were driving slow and looking at the cruise ship out in the harbour. Haven't they ever seen one before?!

I don't like the fuel surcharge, but it sure doesn't seem to be stopping people from going to the Island. I think what will stop more people from going is having a ferry breaking down every day. THere was a funny comic in the Vancouver Sun today ... something to the effect of "Good news everyone! The scheduled 3pm breakdown has been cancelled and the ferry will be sailing!"

The population on the Island is growing quickly, so either people don't care too much about the cost of going on the ferries, or they'll just stay. My dad was talking to a girl a few months ago on the ferry. It was her first time to the Island. She told him that 3 years ago her dad had moved to the Island ... and he liked it so much, he never left!

[Political Incorrectness]

oh I almost forgot they were supposed to have ships coming into naniamo John do you recall what the ship looked like?

[Koastal Karl]

Yeah it was the Infinity as it said on the Victoria cruise schedule she was suppose to be in Victoria that day! She ended up in Victoria on Tuesday instead! As far as the fuel surchage, I thought it was just passengers only! I was surprised the first trip I took after it came into effect they charge for vehicles too!

[YZFNick]

Ships are docking at Campbell River too, the tourism industry is gaining momentum and will break through into the primary industry of the city.