Big News on the new WSF Vessels!

[hergfest]

Here is the link:
www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/projects/NewVessel/
They finally updated the site after over a year! The highlights:
144 cars, 1500 Passengers
2 passenger decks (Super like?)
First delivered in 2009, last in 2011
ONLY four boats not five, looks like the Hyak will be sticking around
"Issaquah Like", yet with the 144 car capacity and the dual passenger deck, wouldn't they be more like the Supers?

[Neil]

Do you know if it's WSF's intention to have the boats built at home, or will they be tendering to overseas interests as well?

[SS San Mateo]

hornbyguy said:

Do you know if it's WSF's intention to have the boats built at home, or will they be tendering to overseas interests as well?

They will be built in Washington. Federal law prevents them from having them built outside the US. Also, state law requires the boat to be built in-state.

-- LB

[Neil]

Right, I should have remembered that. We would have a healthier shipbuilding industry in Canada if we had the same law. Is there any flak in Washington from people who want the ferries to be built more cheaply overseas, or is everyone pretty much clear on the advantage of having all those jobs at home?

[hergfest]

The media doesn't care about "cheaper overseas", so we don't either...lol Besides, it is a mute point with the state law saying they have to be built here. And out local shipyards (Todd, Dakota Creek, Nichols, etc.) have pretty good reputations.

[Political Incorrectness]

So then why did we have the Issaquah class incident in 1980s? Why were the new fast boats rid of so early? Why is the Tyee literally tied up for good? Once you come up with these answers, you can start talking about a "good" reputation.

[northwesterner]

ferrymaniac101 said:

So then why did we have the Issaquah class incident in 1980s? Why were the new fast boats rid of so early? Why is the Tyee literally tied up for good? Once you come up with these answers, you can start talking about a "good" reputation.

Issaquah's were built by a firm no longer in business. They've turned out to be quality ships after the bugs were worked out of them.

Fast boats were gone because they had high resale value after the legislature ran out of money to fund passenger only ferries.

Was the Tyee a Washington State build? The boat came from Alaska.

What about the the Jumbos and the Jumbo Mark IIs - built at Todd I think. Great boats.

[EGfleet]

ferrymaniac101 said:

So then why did we have the Issaquah class incident in 1980s? Why were the new fast boats rid of so early? Why is the Tyee literally tied up for good? Once you come up with these answers, you can start talking about a "good" reputation.

The Issaquah class debacle was largely the fault of the legislature. They pushed through the contract through and gave it to Marine Power and Equipment, a company that had never built anything remotely the size of the Issaquah Class. The yard cut every corner they possibly could, netting an unheard of profit along the way, and basically screwing the state.

Tyee--who cares? It isn't WSF property any more. They sold it several years back and the company that ran it found out--just as Kitsap Transit is--how expensive it is run passenger only ferries.

As for the Chinook and Snohomish they are excellent vessels, beautifully built by Dakota Creek. What caused most of their problem was the former project manager who, against the recommendation of Dakota Creek, put in four engines instead of the designed two-engine set up. Wake was always going to be a problem. Residents on Rich Passage have been complaining about the wake since the Indianapolis replaced the Chippewa back in 1912 ! Nothing they have tested in the POFF ferries has done anything but erode the beach--and despite what the Kitsap Transit director has said, the tests on there hoped for "low wake" boats have pretty much drawn the same results--you're still getting beach erosion at the narrowest part of the passage.

As for the reputation of local yards, take a look at the Jumbos and the Jumbo Mark II's. The Jumbos, built by Todd, have been some of the most trouble-free vessels in the fleet. Same with the Mark II's.

You can't color the reputation of the local shipbuilders in the Puget Sound area by the Issaquah class. (Which, as pointed out, have become very relaible vessels once the mess MP&E was undone) They were built by a corrupt organization more interested in making money than shipbuilding. (And I've got the 500 pages of documents over the building period of the boats to back me up on that.) It netted them the end result they deserved--grand jury indictments, bankruptcy and oblivion.

(Oh, and the Tyee was locally built by Nichols Brothers on Widbey Island, but sent up to Alaska as the Glacier Express where, evidentally, her owners were none to kind to her by the time the State bought her second hand...

[Neil]

Whoa.... cool down there, Mini. There's been a lot of pretty dependable ferries constructed in Washington State over the decades. It doesn't make for much of an argument to point out a few problems, given the overall excellent record. The norm is for ships to still be in good, serviceable shape decades after construction. Care to knock the record of the Evergreen State, or Black Ball's Coho? Pretty good value for the money, 45-50 years later.

[Political Incorrectness]

Thank you for clearing this up, however, the engines that were made for the Chinook and Snohomish were meant to run at 90% efficiency or within that range of 90%-100%, wasting plenty of fuel. The Mark II's are good, the Jumbo's did not have interior but as a matter of fact, not many WSF vessels have appealing interiors IMHO. I think that people wanted to get money just so they would not have to replace the bulkheads, had WSF had a better lawyer, it would have worked better.

[Curtis]

hornbyguy said:

Right, I should have remembered that. We would have a healthier shipbuilding industry in Canada if we had the same law. Is there any flak in Washington from people who want the ferries to be built more cheaply overseas, or is everyone pretty much clear on the advantage of having all those jobs at home?

This Law would do great. BCF should have the same law only they can't go outside North America. They should really build the ships locally

[northwesterner]

ferrymaniac101 said:

Thank you for clearing this up, however, the engines that were made for the Chinook and Snohomish were meant to run at 90% efficiency or within that range of 90%-100%, wasting plenty of fuel. The Mark II's are good, the Jumbo's did not have interior but as a matter of fact, not many WSF vessels have appealing interiors IMHO. I think that people wanted to get money just so they would not have to replace the bulkheads, had WSF had a better lawyer, it would have worked better.

The interiors on the Walla Walla and Spokane were actually quite good. They lasted a heck of a long time, on a route with large amounts of walk on passengers, for more than twenty years. In the case of the Walla Walla, that interior lasted over thirty. The thing that made those interiors look bad was the color scheme - the earth tones looked pretty bad by the mid 90s. But still, I was on the Spokane a few months ago, and I actually missed the old interior. It was what I grew up with - and what I was used to.

[EGfleet]

The interiors on the Walla Walla and Spokane were actually quite good. They lasted a heck of a long time, on a route with large amounts of walk on passengers, for more than twenty years. In the case of the Walla Walla, that interior lasted over thirty. The thing that made those interiors look bad was the color scheme - the earth tones looked pretty bad by the mid 90s. But still, I was on the Spokane a few months ago, and I actually missed the old interior. It was what I grew up with - and what I was used to.

Oh yeah, for the 70's they were the swingin' boats to have! All that lovely orange and yellow and wall to wall gold carpet! It looked like the Brady Bunch kitchen! Just goes to show you how much tastes change over the years (thankfully) although I agree with you, I still have a soft spot for those old interiors--they were what I grew up with as well.

That being said, I think they did a good job refurbishing both boats, particularly the Wally which looks quite nice with the different shades of green they used.

[Neil]

I'm not that familiar with your boats, so I was wondering, when they're re-furbished, are they done to a standard scheme, or does each boat get it's own distinguishing touches?

[EGfleet]

hornbyguy said:

I'm not that familiar with your boats, so I was wondering, when they're re-furbished, are they done to a standard scheme, or does each boat get it's own distinguishing touches?

Similar materials are used, but each gets its own color scheme, patters in the tile floor, etc. They're actually being pretty creative with some standard materials--i.e. the seats on many of the boats are now interchangeable with one another, but compliment the particular colors on that boat. The Cathlamet stands out for the use of red for example, the Spokane is the only boat in the fleet that has purple in it, and the Chelan uses an orange-red in the tile and glass around the galley I've not seen anywhere else.

Most distinguishing from boat to boat is the artwork--which I really which I knew who was in charge of as they've done a great job...each boat as artwork and photography geared toward the name of the boat. On the Walla Walla you'll find historic photos of the city of Walla Walla. You'll also find examples of Native American artwork from that area on board. On the Chelan you've got historic and contemporary photos of the lake and area around Lake Chelan. There are reproductions of Chelan Brand apple crate artwork on board. A local artist has done some fabric artwork. On the Kitsap there are photos of Kitsap County and the BRemerton area, and in a nod to her predecessor, there is a nice photo of the Chippewa plying the same Seattle-Bremerton route that the Kitsap most often serves.

Cathlamet has got the best though--she has the wheel and some of the navigation equipment of the Olympic, the ferry that ran the same Mukilteo-Clinton route for close to 30 years.

Okay,that's more than you probably wanted to know, but there you have it...

[SS San Mateo]

Based on the drawing I've seen on the WSF website, the new ferries resemble smaller versions of the Jumbo Mark II vessels.

From what I've read, a shipyard in New Orleans had a lower bid than MP&E did.

-- LB

[EGfleet]

vashondude said:

Based on the drawing I've seen on the WSF website, the new ferries resemble smaller versions of the Jumbo Mark II vessels.

From what I've read, a shipyard in New Orleans had a lower bid than MP&E did.

-- LB

Yep, it did. Certain "advantages" were given to MP&E. Like one of the state reps who pushed through the contract happening to owe MP&E a few thousand dollars in repairs to his boat...

[hergfest]

That drawing is old. Its based off of the original design, which has basicly been scrapped.

[Political Incorrectness]

ferrymaniac.sitesled.com/images/Picture%203.png Maybe they should make it like this for those who did not see the video. I managed the best shot I could of the vessel.

[Mike C]

The first thing I thought of when I saw that pic, was the rear end of the Kalakala. LOL.

Thx Minipod!

[hergfest]

That is the Martinaic (sp?) design, which WSF doesn't want to use. There was a thread on this board discussing it.

[Political Incorrectness]

That was a great design, what were the flaws with it?

[SS San Mateo]

ferrymaniac101 said:

That was a great design, what were the flaws with it?

The main flaw was the propulsion system (the Martinac design uses Z-drives, but WSF has already decided on the propulsion system.

One thing I noticed in the Martinac design is that the passenger cabin walls don't go all the way out to the edge of the passenger deck.

-- LB

[SS San Mateo]

hergfest said:

That is the Martinaic (sp?) design, which WSF doesn't want to use. There was a thread on this board discussing it.

That thread would be:

ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=nwf&action=display&thread=1133339359

-- LB

[Political Incorrectness]

That design would have needed a modification which would be another passenger deck. Then it may have been perfect but it was a great design.