The Greater Vancouver Gateway Project

[Scott]

It's been all over the news today... Gordon Campbell and his friends want to build the 3 billion dollar Gateway Project which includes a north and south perimeter road along the Fraser, and the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge. The proposal also calls for tolls of $2.50 on the new Port Mann Bridges.. each way.

What do you guys think?

I have one question to start. The Port Mann is part of Highway 1 (the Trans Canada Highway). Is the province allowed to put a toll on the National highway? Do you think it's right?

[Balfour]

I think it's great that they're twinning the Port Mann bridge, but I'm against the Tolls. Infrastructure such as this should be funded with our tax dollars.

[Ferryman]

It's about something like this was done. They need to do that with the Lions Gate too.

[hergfest]

The State of Washington is planning some new tolls also, something this state hasn't done for years. I think they should only toll bridges, and only toll them until they are paid off. This is what the state will do on the new Narrows bridge, a new 520 bridge, and maybe even the new Alaska Way Viaduct. I have been on some of the Toll Roads back East, and they are very poorly maintained. Plus they never take the tolls off.

[Quinsam]

I think it is a great Idea, the Port Mann is busy, it needs to be twinned or stretched, the tolls are ok, 2.50 isn't much, the Coquihalla is $10 each way!

[NMcKay]

but how many people travel that Coq 2 or 3 times a day?

[Quinsam]

I have never been that far, I went up the Highway 1 past Chilliwack, but didn't go over the Port Mann Bridge, I went via Surrey and Langley.

[Ferryman]

If you went Surrey via Langley on Highway 1, then you crossed the Port Mann......
I don't mind paying a toll, but the thing that they're forgetting, is the rush hour traffic. So the wait to go over the bridge would be as long as, or longer than the current time that it take to go over. So I don't think that's not going to be very efficient to do that. I think that will just put more stress on the Patullo bridge, as it's the next closest bridge across. So why would that put more stress on the Patullo Bridge? Well what do people do when they find out traffic is backed up over a certain route, or in this case, a bridge? They'll want to avoid it, as any sort of shortcut will seem to be the better way to go. But on the other hand, the other option for the Province to pay that off would be to raise the taxes. So it may be alot easier to just use the toll. Also, the bridge that's removing the Albion Ferries, the Golden Ears Bridge ( I think that's what it's called ) would probably take more stress off of the Port Mann. So I guess it depends how you look at this.
With what John pointed out, that I didn't see the first time I read his post, was the fact they're putting a toll on the National Highway. That's the part that doesn't make sense, and that should of been a Federal decision. Because they'll want a piece of what the BC Government gets out of the toll. So the tolls will probably be (rough estimate) 50% higher than originally planned, to accomadate the Federal Governments need. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out when it's all complete.

[Doug]

They should avoid the toll...there will be a toll on the Golden Ears Bridge, and that's a new one. The Port Mann already is a freeway crossing that has been there for 40 years. Even more disruption when it's least needed sucks.

[Mike C]

Remember that these are going to be collected over the internet... so it's not like it's going to back up traffic, or anything...

[Quinsam]

I went on Highway 10, and joined the Trans Canada south of the Port Mann.

[Mike C]

Since traffic is always backed up from 152nd heading on to the freeway, and being based in Delta, I always just use the Patullo! And, as of a couple of months from now, I'll save myself $2.50. ;D

[Alex]

Just a note, the toll system will be electronic. Cameras will capture your licence plate, and you'll recieve a bill in the mail. Thats the way the tolls will work on the new Golden Ears Bridge too. With the Golden Ears, there was talk of monthly passes or other such frequent user discounts, so that may also translate to the twinning of the Port Mann.

I think this project is basically essential. With the Port Mann, you really don't have a choice. Whats the other option? Do nothing? Will the traffic just magically disappear? I've heard people say there should be a rapid transit line instead. Unfortunately, I don't believe that part of Surrey can adequately sustain a rapid transit line. Not to mention the fact that most people aren't from the surrounding area. Many come from Langley and other parts of surrey, and would be less willing to park their cars and pay even more to get to their destination.

And so, it seems that we have no choice. However, I do agree that the tolls should only be in place to pay off the bridge. Such was the case with the Patullo Bridge when it was first built.

Also, lets not forget the other parts of the project. The Pitt River bridge very badly needs more capacity. I was once stuck in traffic for over a half hour, going AGAINST Rush hour traffic. Also, the South Fraser Perimiter Road needs to be completed. A direct route to Highway 1 will be beneficial in getting big trucks off of arterials, and also providing a more direct connection for people coming from the Fraser Valley, or the Interior, headed to the Tsawassen Ferry Terminal. Also, the parts of River Road in North Delta is not designed to handle the big trucks that use it.

[Scott]

From what I hear, the tolls aren't to pay for the bridge, but to act as a "traffic management" system. The reasoning is, fewer people will want to use the bridge with a toll on it, so the bridge won't reach it's capacity for 15-20 years instead of 2-3 years.

Another thing I heard was that the tolls will be done electronically, through a sensor somewhere on the windshield. That's what someone on the radio said anyways. I don't know how something like that would work with tourists.

I'm not a huge fan of adding a lot of car capacity on the freeway. But they do need at least one more lane going westbound, and they should probably have one or two lanes dedicated to buses so they can actually have transit going over the bridge. Maybe an extra lane going in each direction just between Surrey and Coquitlam might help too... like on the Second Narrows Bridge there's an extra lane just between the last exit from Vancouver and the first one or two exits in North Vancouver.

[Scott]

I've got another option that might work. Harry could buy the Mill Bay and run it across the river under the Port Mann! That way we could save 3 billion bucks!

[Ferryman]

Great idea! They could sell the current Port Mann for scrap, and then run the Mill Bay with the Quinsam!

Only kidding, Harry.

[Mike C]

lol. Perhaps we should make a buffet for Mac Write...

[kylefossett]

what is wrong with a toll to pay for new infrastructure like bridges and highways. why should somebody living in port alberni or fort st. john hve to pay for a bridge or highway on the cost here. there are other options to get across the fraser other than the port mann or new golden ears bridge. just like other options to get to the interior other than the coquihalla.

[Doug]

I have actually leaned toward agreeing with the toll...but I hate to see the commuters who use the bridge everyday suffer. Many people get payed every two weeks; that's now an extra $50 off their paycheck because of the toll.

On the other side, however, it encourages people to not use the bridge at all, search for alternate routes, or (good one for the commuters), use transit. I think there may be a sky train link on the new cable-stayed bridge as well.

Overall, I think the whole idea of the bridge is great.

[Low Light Mike]

Why not replace the Port Mann bridge with an energy-efficient reaction-ferry, like the one at McClure or Marguerite? Or better yet, as John already suggested, run the MV Mill Bay & John-Atlantic-Burr as a shuttle accross the Fraser at the site of the Port Mann Bridge.

****I've just been taken over by the evil spirit of Harry L. Douthwaite**** Someone call me an excorcist! (sounds of growling, grunting.....scenes of green-puke and my head spinning 360-degrees........suddenly Gandalf appears with staff, and calls the spirit of Harry out of me, and now I'm back to normal......sigh) *****

- About the tolls on bridges, I think it's fair. I don't know how effective a camera-and-mail-billing system will be......seems like it would be a collections nightmare.
As someone who doesn't like driving from Tsawwassen terminal to points in the Fraser Valley, I like the idea of a perimeter road on the South Fraser bank.

Anything that happens will likely take 10 years before it's implemented.....so I'll wait until something happens. Until I see something, I won't get excited.

[Alex]

flugelhorn said:

- About the tolls on bridges, I think it's fair. I don't know how effective a camera-and-mail-billing system will be......seems like it would be a collections nightmare.
As someone who doesn't like driving from Tsawwassen terminal to points in the Fraser Valley, I like the idea of a perimeter road on the South Fraser bank.

Anything that happens will likely take 10 years before it's implemented.....so I'll wait until something happens. Until I see something, I won't get excited.

For the tolls, I believe the 407 freeway in Toronto runs on some sort of automated toll system. Its tracked by licence plate. So the technology exists. I believe there were some issues, but I think they end up giving you the benefit of the doubt.

As for the 10 years to build thing, the articles I read claim they want it to be completed by 2013.

[Low Light Mike]

The intent of my "10 year to implement" comment was that nothing would likely start in the next 10 years, because things happen very slowly in BC sometimes, and governments change, budgeted costs increase, and announced projects don't get off the ground.

That's my pessimistic viewpoint tonight. Examples that come to mind are the Kelowna Bridge, and the Arrow Lake Bridge at Needles.

I know that there's lots of examples proving that things actually do happen in BC, but like I said, I'm feeling pessimistic tonight.

[Doug]

I think the Libs compensated for their "Gateway Project" already. Seven years to date to build a bridge is nonsense. They built the Confederation Bridge in less time than that.

[Dane]

kylefossett said:

what is wrong with a toll to pay for new infrastructure like bridges and highways. why should somebody living in port alberni or fort st. john hve to pay for a bridge or highway on the cost here. there are other options to get across the fraser other than the port mann or new golden ears bridge. just like other options to get to the interior other than the coquihalla.

Because the tax revenues from BC invalidate your first point. Vancouver and Victoria pay for almost everything, with some aid from Kelowna and Prince George.

Tolls are stupid, I'd agree with them perhaps if there was a major public transit infastructure to fall back on other than buses, but there's not.