Robert Dziekanski

[Neil]

Like most people who watched the video of Robert Dziekanski's last minutes alive, I was appalled at the actions of the RCMP officers, and horrified at the sad, lonely death of a man who had never even been in an airport before, and who was utterly without resources to communicate in a situation he had no control over. Supposedly one of the higher rated airports in the world- and here was a man who couldn't speak a word of English, left for hours on end without anyone even making an effort to find out what language he spoke.

Those of us who from time to time tend to get a bit self righteous about how civilized Canada is, especially compared to those nasty Americans, should do some reflecting. This, apparently, is a country where it's acceptable for the police to toss drunks into a freezing alley to die, and where frightened, frustrated, unarmed visitors are tasered and suffocated by officers who literally cannot take two minutes to try to communicate.

I thought today's Globe and Mail summed up the police actions against Mr. Dziekanski pretty well, in damning language you don't often see in a daily newspaper:

"All that is wrong with tasers is in plain view in this video. The officers didn't attempt any interaction with the man. They didn't try to negotiate. They didn't make calming gestures. They didn't have to. They had their tasers with them, and lost their humanity."

Police officers admittedly have difficult, dangerous jobs which require them to take risks and make very quick decisions. That doesn't excuse their actions in this case. And the insensitivity and incompetence of the immigration and airport security people are no more excusable. This story has an international profile, and does not reflect well on Canada.

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(Moderator edit to do some window dressing on the thread title)

[Political Incorrectness]

Very well said Neil. CBC did extensive coverage of this event and I was very surprised that a normal citizen was willing to document the event and actually stand up and say something. Not many here have the courage to do so. This also brings up an unprofessional issue up at the RCMP for taking an officer''s story as the final word without further investigation which I find rather disturbing to create a haze when there is something wrong that needs to be addressed.

[Northern Exploration]

A friend in the Czech Republic saw this and asked me about it. So it is all over the world now.

[Low Light Mike]

Granted that police officers are often in life-threatening situations, and sometimes their caution is sometimes displayed in a heavy-handed way..... but such situations are the reason that they have training. ie training to anticipate situations, and to know the various options to diffuse tension.

[Scott]

Almost everyone I've talked to on this subject is of the same opinions already expressed. Having seen the video, I find it hard to justify the quick decision of the police officers to use excessive force. I can see how he may have been threatening before the police arrived, but I didn't see him threaten the police in any way whatsoever. And I agree, this incident gives Vancouver and Canada a bad name.

On the other hand, we've got to remember that there are millions of people who have successfully travelled through YVR without a problem for years. And I would also point out that there were "regular" people who did attempt to communicate with him, at least once he started acting out. But there definitely was a failure in the system at various levels.

[Scott]

I'd be interested in the opinion of others on what I'm about to say...

If this incident had happened to a Canadian in Poland, or China, or Mexico, or even the USA, would we have 7 separate inquiries into the incident, widespread public outrage and mourning, the video released to the public, major sustained media coverage? That's why I think that it is somewhat unreasonable to paint Canada or British Columbia in a bad light because of this incident. Sure, it should raise questions about our police, our airport, our customs/border proceedures, but I think compared to other places in the world we're still a very safe and welcoming place to come.

[Retrovision]

admin said:

I'd be interested in the opinion of others on what I'm about to say...

If this incident had happened to a Canadian in Poland, or China, or Mexico, or even the USA, would we have 7 separate inquiries into the incident, widespread public outrage and mourning, the video released to the public, major sustained media coverage? That's why I think that it is somewhat unreasonable to paint Canada or British Columbia in a bad light because of this incident. Sure, it should raise questions about our police, our airport, our customs/border proceedures, but I think compared to other places in the world we're still a very safe and welcoming place to come.

I think that the effect would be the same, simply with the tables turned; lack of inquiry or our trust therein would trigger political and diplomatic outrage where here we have trusted and throrough inquiry quelling Polish outrage.
-
On a related note, it seems quite telling to me of the motivations for our society's debate over tasers by the seeming lack of aknowledgement of this debate when I brought it up soon after the initial trigger event occured, found here...
ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=nonBCF&action=display&thread=1192409158
...And the seemingly spontaneous start to this debate found in this thread soon after the release of the sensationalistic video long after the occurence let alone it being posted about on this same forum.

[Neil]

Retro: Normally I would not start a new thread if someone had already initiated discussion on a topic; it was simply an oversight on my part to not check back to see that you had posted on this story a month ago. I remember now reading it at the time.

I don't think there was anything 'sensationalist' about the video. It was an accurate, undoctored account of what happened.

John: We Canadians are forever telling ourselves, and anyone who will listen, how civilized we are; how our justice and police systems are so much fairer, efficient, and less corrupt than places like Mexico, China, or Poland. You might be right- perhaps an incident like this might not garner the attention in those countries that it got here, but I think the point is that sometimes we really need to take stock of how well our law enforcement agencies work, and how the power of the state is exercised. Perhaps we get too complacent, and cases like this cause us to take a look at ourselves and at those who enforce order.

While the actions of the police and airport staff might be reprehensible, the public outcry says something rather more heartening about Canadians as a people. I hope that's been reported abroad along with the account of Mr Dziekanski's death.

[Low Light Mike]

admin said:

I'd be interested in the opinion of others on what I'm about to say...

I think that we can look at the incident in 2 different ways:

1) That anywhere in the world, including BC, this is unacceptable. So really, this isn't any different than a similar singular incident in China or Myanmar. Except that it happens more often in China or Myanmar. (and I guess I'm referring to any type of police or military brutality)

2) That since BC is seemingly more democratic than some other parts of the world (China, Myanmar), that we should be held to a higher standard. Or at least that incidents like this stand-out more, and so they attract more attention (because we should do better than that, as a BC Society).

[WettCoast]

admin said:

I'd be interested in the opinion of others on what I'm about to say...

If this incident had happened to a Canadian in Poland, or China, or Mexico, or even the USA, would we have 7 separate inquiries into the incident, widespread public outrage and mourning, the video released to the public, major sustained media coverage? That's why I think that it is somewhat unreasonable to paint Canada or British Columbia in a bad light because of this incident. Sure, it should raise questions about our police, our airport, our customs/border procedures, but I think compared to other places in the world we're still a very safe and welcoming place to come.

John I agree with all that you say...

However, it still remains as an appalling incident, and one which gives Canada an international 'black eye'. The RCMP's actions (or lack of actions), along with those of many other airport officials, must be examined closely so as to prevent a repeat of this very unfortunate event.

[Northern Exploration]

My friends in Germany and in the Czech Republic raised this event again with me. I strongly believe that Tazers need much stricter "rules of engagement". Just because they aren't as lethal as guns it doesn't mean there shouldn't be some very strict guidelines. That includes an internal investigation every time they are used. I don't believe they should ever be used as a "safe" pre-emptive way to immobilze someone unless it is the last resort before firing a weapon. Anyways my opinion.

[Retrovision]

hornbyguy said:

Retro: Normally I would not start a new thread if someone had already initiated discussion on a topic; it was simply an oversight on my part to not check back to see that you had posted on this story a month ago. I remember now reading it at the time.

S'all good and quite understandable, though I still stand by my assessment and criticism that our society's outrage was seemingly only initiated by sensation-provoking images, as telling and undeniable as they are, showing our angst for judging on facts alone and too often only on moving images.

hornbyguy said:

I don't think there was anything 'sensationalist' about the video. It was an accurate, undoctored account of what happened.

This is my misspeak; what I meant to get across was sensation-provoking, meant to point out that it was the optical and not firstly the factual that provoked such disgust, though what is more factual than the optical, eh, so agreed.

hornbyguy said:

While the actions of the police and airport staff might be reprehensible,...

I have an inside track on the YVR circuit - long story - and am inherently biased, but I can tell you that if anyone should escape the ire of this debate it's the airport authority. YVR are the ones who regularly have a first responder significantly closer than any BC Ambulance team, who were exclusively contacted by the RCMP bringing down the chances of recovery from what was possibly / probably a significant cardiac event in the time lost between the two. YVR have not only commented but have even held a media event to recount the timing and geography involved while the Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) is the only agency involved who have yet to comment in any way. YVR have refused to comment negatively in any way on either the CBSA or RCMP's response, despite their having every right to. The list goes on.

[ferryrider42]

It’s not the location or the video that separates this incident from those that have occurred before. It was the events surrounding the video. This tragedy has a good back story, a homegrown Canadian who was over in China preaching Canada’s freedom of the press. A landed immigrant who was simply lost and confused; looking for his mother no less. Then the police confiscation, the accusations of police protecting themselves, and then the legal proceedings to obtain the video.

It’s that rich back story that gives this story so much power. If you or I where simply Tazered here, or any other country and the unthinkable occurred, we all know how things would play out. A 60 second blurb on the evening news, and a short article on page 2 of the morning’s paper; it’s happened before. So it’s that solid back story that allowed the news media to really “sensationalize” this story, and the video merely reinforced what we where hearing.

Sensationalism isn’t always a bad thing, sometimes that’s just what it takes to effect change. And, the news medias actions are a good thing, the population is now aware of the dangers surrounding these devices. What's unfortunate is that many had to die before we got to this point.

[Retrovision]

ferryrider42 said:

It’s not the location or the video that separates this incident from those that have occurred before. It was the events surrounding the video. This tragedy has a good back story, a homegrown Canadian who was over in China preaching Canada’s freedom of the press. A landed immigrant who was simply lost and confused; looking for his mother no less. Then the police confiscation, the accusations of police protecting themselves, and then the legal proceedings to obtain the video.

It’s that rich back story that gives this story so much power. If you or I where simply Tazered here, or any other country and the unthinkable occurred, we all know how things would play out. A 60 second blurb on the evening news, and a short article on page 2 of the morning’s paper; it’s happened before. So it’s that solid back story that allowed the news media to really “sensationalize” this story, and the video merely reinforced what we where hearing.

Sensationalism isn’t always a bad thing, sometimes that’s just what it takes to effect change. And, the news medias actions are a good thing, the population is now aware of the dangers surrounding these devices. What's unfortunate is that many had to die before we got to this point.

Just as Athenians knew democracy wasn't exactly exclusively virtuous, sensationalism is not always such a bad thing. Back stories do give meaning to otherwise all too often inane words spewed out by media ad nauseam, but this is what's in my crosshairs, media, not the people. I play devil's advocate all too often, ferryrider42, and I can't disagree with a word of yours here.