Kwa-di Tabil Class Design & Construction

[Barnacle]

Dec 16, 2009 19:28:11 GMT -8 FNS said:

I wouldn't be surprised that she'll come out with CP propellers.

I would. The running gear is already installed, and has been for some time. What is more likely is that once #2 and #3 are constructed, the Chetzemoka will be retrofitted.

This is the first time I'd noticed that there will be no ports on the auto deck level. That's going to suck for whoever has to be out there loading the wing. I hope this isn't going to be a trend...

[Quatchi]

It probably will be a trend, all of our newer vessels have NO openings on the main car decks, and the older ones have had all but a couple welded shut. It is to prevent fire from spreading up into the rest of the ship. And your car decks have huge openings at the ends, you'll get a pretty good flow through that. Usually our guys open the doors on both ends and they get great cross ventilation. These are pretty small boats as well, there's only 64 cars compared to the hundreds on our Spirit class. I don't think fumes will be too bad, but still will be noticeable.

Cheers,

[Barnacle]

Dec 17, 2009 11:20:21 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

It probably will be a trend, all of our newer vessels have NO openings on the main car decks, and the older ones have had all but a couple welded shut. It is to prevent fire from spreading up into the rest of the ship. And your car decks have huge openings at the ends, you'll get a pretty good flow through that. Usually our guys open the doors on both ends and they get great cross ventilation. These are pretty small boats as well, there's only 64 cars compared to the hundreds on our Spirit class. I don't think fumes will be too bad, but still will be noticeable.

I'm sure the effect is noticeable over the average 25 years an employee spends on a Washington State ferry. On the other hand, closing up some of the ports for weather issues would admittedly be nice.

[FNS]

Nichols workers are quick!

THE NUMBER TWO END WHEELHOUSE IS INSTALLED!


The scene as captured by NB's webcam at 1418PST today.


The scene as captured by NB's webcam at 1618PST today.


The scene as captured by NB's webcam at 1818PST today.


The scene as captured by NB's webcam at 2018PST today. This is the night cap.

[Freeland]

I see that Steilacoom II has generator problems again.

Since the Chetzemoka is using the same generators and engines as the new 144 car ferry, I assume that it will not be working as hard as the Stielcoom II. Does any one know
the information on differance of the size of engines between the Stielacoom II and new Chetzemoka Ferry.

Emory in Freeland

[moravian]

They will use the same engine. EMD 710 12 cylinder, 3000 hp each. It is a very reliable two stroke diesel in wide use.

As a result of the use of the larger engines, the 64 car Island Home Class of WSF ferry is twice as powerful as the 64 car steel electric class they replace. It will obviously burn quite a bit more fuel.

The generator question is a good one but the question is really a matter of redundancy rather than the manufacturer of the diesel.

The Island Home (like steilacoom II) Class has only two ship's service generators. If either of them fails the ship is not allowed to remain in service.

WSF has not built a car ferry with only two generators since the Evergreen State Class in the 1950s. Even that class has been renovated so that all of the ships power comes from the main engines. Taking power from the main engines results in a net increase in reliability because there are fewer diesels required to maintain service.

The Steel Electrics (all except Klickitat) also had ship's service power provided by the propulsion engines and so in virtually every way the machinery plant was a much more modern design than the Chetz even though they were made in 1927 and the Chetz will be vintage 2010.

More 'modern' WSF ferries like the Supers (1967) Jumbos (1972) and Issaquahs (1980-2) were all built with three generators so that a single diesel failure would not take the ship out of service.

Only having a two generators is a reliability problem that WSF learned decades ago. The Steilacoom simply proves it once again.

The WSF ferry population with only two generators is now down to Rhody and Hiyu. Niether of these ships was designed or built for the WSF, they were used ships WSF purchased after construction.

The new ferries may not be rusty on the outside but the design sure is.

[Freeland]

Thanks for information. Being new, I am always learning something knew.
I can blame Bill Bailey who work for WSF for thirty plus years for becoming
a Ferryboat enthusiast. Emory in Freeland

[FNS]

Some neat info there. Actually, there will be three generators aboard the new CHETZEMOKA. Two main generators in the "basement" and an emergency generator on the Sun Deck.

Going back to the Steel-Electrics, we were treated to some neat effects in the night when they had their wooden cabins. All light bulbs were incandescent, so they varied in brightness depending on the amount of power applied to them.

These effects weren't really visible in the observatories as these were darkened with few or no bulbs on to provide a darker fore deck for the navigators and a better view for the passengers to see the dock on the other side. This was a fun experience on the Mukilteo route in the 1970s and early 1980s when the ILLAHEE and NISQUALLY were on this run.

Every time a change of speed was applied, all the lights would change brightness a bit for a moment. This was really noticeable when a change of direction was made, and the noisy generators changed sounds and RPM's briefly.

The light effects were also noticeable when a change of course was performed. These had electric steering with a lever in the wheelhouse. You could hear the steering motor(s) at the ends.


From Page 101 in Demoro's The Evergreen Fleet, this showed how the drive shafts were controlled aboard the QUINAULT. A wheel was used in changing the direction and speed of the drive motors. The further he turns the wheel to the left, the faster the drive motors would work in that direction. Center the wheel and the drive motors would stop. Turn the wheel to the right and the drive motors would turn the other direction. Page 19 in the book mentions that 90 percent of the power was applied to the aft propeller and 10 percent to the forward propeller to eliminate any resistance. If this photo was taken on the Mukilteo run, that engineer would be looking to the north as this part of the engine room was in the Number Two End side of amidships and these ferries touched Mukilteo at that end.

I really miss the days when our Steel-Electrics had character, had their noisy generators, and had their wooden cabins.

On the other hand, I'll be fun to ride the new CHETZEMOKA and her sisters.

[FNS]

Dec 20, 2009 19:09:45 GMT -8 @moravian said:

The WSF ferry population with only two generators is now down to Rhody and Hiyu. Niether of these ships was designed or built for the WSF, they were used ships WSF purchased after construction.

You're only half right, there. The HIYU was designed and built in 1967 for WSF to replace the aging SKANSONIA on the Tahlequah run. She has a sister in Hawaii that operated services to Ford Island until a bridge was built recently.

[Barnacle]

Dec 20, 2009 22:57:05 GMT -8 FNS said:

You're only half right, there. The HIYU was designed and built in 1967 for WSF to replace the aging SKANSONIA on the Tahlequah run. She has a sister in Hawaii that operated services to Ford Island until a bridge was built recently.

Recently, in this case, being 1998. ;D

[moravian]

The third generator on the chetzabloka does not "count" if either ship's service generator fails, the boat must be removed from service, no exceptions. The "third" generator on the other boats is called the vital generator and it's purpose is to keep the ferry in service. They all have an emergency generator as well and so have four total.

[Nick]

The emergency generator is a safety requirement, just like life boats and a fire suppression system. It is not to be counted on in normal running circumstances. The entire purpose of an emergency generator is to keep vital lights and equipment running in the event of a catastrophic emergency.. that's why it's up on the top deck, so if the engine room is flooded there will still be some available power.

I'm honestly very surprised they are only building with 2 service gensets. Actually, I'm surprised that got past safety regs. I was under the impression that the generators had to be sized so that one engine could drop offline without causing a shipwide blackout.

[Quatchi]

We are talking about the states here. They did let the Steel electrics run for 80 some odd years, and don't WSF ships not have lifeboats. I thinks TC is much more stringent than the USDOT, or whoever it is that certifies vessels in the states.

Cheers,

[whidbeyislandguy]

Dec 21, 2009 18:10:18 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

We are talking about the states here. They did let the Steel electrics run for 80 some odd years, and don't WSF ships not have lifeboats. I thinks TC is much more stringent than the USDOT, or whoever it is that certifies vessels in the states.

Cheers,

This is only partly correct..

There are inflatable life-rafts. No not every ferry has out-of-the-water lifesaving devices such as lifeboats and or life-rafts for everyone like the BC boats.

No the New ferries won't have for 100% of the passengers either. But then again All of our boats are:

A. Much closer to land.

B. in far more protected waters.

And Yes many of us down here in the States are happy with this. However, it doesn't mean we re worried bout it either.

Statistics compiled for USA TODAY by the Coast Guard indicate that there were 88 fatalities on inspected U.S. passenger vessels (boats carrying seven or more passengers) from 1967 through 1997. In many incidents, the Coast Guard says, the number of lifeboats or rafts was not a factor.

The number of fatalities may be higher, however. Coast Guard officials couldn't explain why
much higher fatality totals for some years were provided in the agency's 1989 regulatory
proposal. The statistics provided by the Coast Guard do not include the many foreign registered ships that carry American passengers from U.S. port cities.

Regardless of the actual number of fatalities, though, even staunch safety advocates admit that the fatal accident record of U.S. passenger vessels, particularly the record compiled by ferries, is impressive.

While there have been thousands of passenger fatalities in Third World countries and in Eastern Europe in recent years, no major catastrophe has occurred aboard a U.S. passenger vessel since the 1930s.

Safety advocates say a good fatal accident record is not a reason to avoid supplying out-of-the-water lifesaving devices for everyone, and they point to numerous close calls in recent years

During the past six years, for example, the Coast Guard has recorded 3,251 passenger vessel
"casualty" cases. A casualty case can involve, among other things, grounding, collision, loss of
power or steering, fire, flooding, an injury or a death.

In a December 1997 speech, Coast Guard Rear Admiral Robert North said "casualties are still
occurring at an unacceptable rate and too frequently with catastrophic consequences." A month later, North told the Passenger Vessel Association that "many more near-misses occur than casualties."

Unlike their U.S. counterparts, most passenger vessels in Canada have out-of-the-water
equipment for everyone aboard. "I'd safely say that above 75% of Canadian passenger vessels have out-of-the-water equipment for 100% of the passengers," says Bud Streeter, director general of marine safety for Transport Canada. "In winter, all Canadian passenger vessels, except two in Vancouver's rapid transit system, have out-of-the-water equipment for everyone. And those two vessels have just received approval to install such equipment."

[chief]

In the states, passenger vessels must comply with the code of federal regulations (subchapter W) which do require 100% rafting. These vessels, like many WSF vessels utilize a feature of this regulation which permits "alternative compliance". This device allows a company to propose alternative safety strategies which have the equivalent level of safety as 100% rafting.

WSF has chosen this route as it believes that is a less expensive course of action.

It is the "risk" of loss of life which drives regulations eminating from the Coast Guard. In this, risk is a function of history/ probability and of consequence. History suggests that the probability of loss of life is low but the consequence of sinking is very great on vessels where there are more than 2000 passengers embarked.

As this is a thread about the new construction at WSF, I would not say more on that.

The new 64 car vessels use aluminum in their superstructure which melts at 500 degrees. A few years ago, the Coast guard opposed even aluminum floor plates in the engine rooms.

They are narrow and shallow which challenge stability and reserve buoyancy calculations.

They are unable to stop with their stern propeller only when entering Keystone Harbor yet have only one engine which can provide power to their braking propeller the bow. If the engine, the reduction gear, or the controls fail in a Keystone landing their is little possiblility of stopping the vessel. Most sailors there would tell you that Keystone has grounded every vessel to serve there.

They have the most exposed rudders and shafting in the WSF fleet and work it's most hazardous route. The combination seems likely to result in more drydock time than her 1927 predecessors.

They have no reserve machinery, just the minimium the law allows.

These are not boats which will attract the most senior engineers, but the least.

Does this cumulatively result in hightened risk? Perhaps, but not probably the life threatening kind. They are cheap boats (built at a premium cost) with little regard for the experiences of prior generations of WSF vessels and it's mariners.

[FNS]

As we await for more excellent photos of the new CHETZEMOKA, let's take a look at the predecessor's architecture.

There are a few threads on this forum that show pictures of the classic Sidewheel Steamer EUREKA, a large double-ended ferry that operated on San Francisco Bay. She has similar architecture features the old CHETZEMOKA had. Let's take a look.


As we see, the old CHETZEMOKA had numerous compartments in her cabin.


This photo was taken by me aboard the STR EUREKA on July 11, 1992, in San Francisco. This shows that the EUREKA has a compartment lounge on her starboard forward corner at the San Francisco end. This is very similar to the CHETZEMOKA, but there are no doors or windows in this partition like what the CHETZY had. The EUREKA is a 1922 rebuild on the former UKIAH. This may have inspired the Golden Gate Ferry Company to "compartmentalize" the passenger cabins aboard its 240 foot Wooden Electrics (including the CHETZY) built between 1926 to 1928.


I turned and aimed my camera to the dining area aboard the EUREKA. Interesting to note that the diners weren't offered views of the scenery. I guess that it was for those who weren't interested in the scenery, or the fog that was present on San Francisco Bay on many occasions. This shows more of the partition.


Looking across the other side of the San Francisco end.


The other three corners of the EUREKA are not compartments and are open as we see above.


We go outside to see another similarity. Notice the roof line. Very similar to the CHETZY's. A lot of ferries on the Bay that predated the Wooden Electrics had this design, especially the SAN MATEO and her sisters. The wind break on the centerline was doubled on the CHETZY as hers acted as the upper landing of the ladder way from the car deck. That ladder you see is a museum installation as the original was installed in the lifeboat area.

As said before, we'll be seeing lots of compartments aboard the new CHETZEMOKA. Very neat that the new one is being named after the old one (besides that wonderful person) that had passenger cabin compartments.

[Barnacle]

Tease. For a moment, I thought you actually had color interior shots of the Chetzemoka...

[FNS]

Dec 27, 2009 22:21:16 GMT -8 Barnacle said:

Tease. For a moment, I thought you actually had color interior shots of the Chetzemoka...

I do! Only photographic memories embedded deep within the brain in my head. ;D

I was too young to think about taking photos of ferry interiors then. I was about 10 or 11 when I took my final ride aboard the old CHETZEMOKA, most likely in 1972, Clinton to Mukilteo in the night. Her high pitched whistles sounded just like the new ones installed aboard the 1987 redone ILLAHEE, NISQUALLY, and QUINAULT. I loved that old CHETZY as much as I'll do aboard the new one.

I have "Egfleet" to thank in emailing me the interior photos of the KLAHANIE as my interest in the old Wooden Electrics has completely skyrocketed through the stratosphere.

I used the photos aboard the EUREKA as a basic color reference of what the Wooden Electrics' interiors were like. I was quite surprised to see this compartment lounge aboard the EUREKA. She is such a neat old ferry to explore. Hyde Street Pier, where she is moored today, was her home on weekends as her Main Deck was cleared of passenger benches and she helped out SPGGFL do vehicle trips to and from Marin County. I sat on her benches and daydreamed what it was like to ride her across to Sausalito. I don't have a Ford Model T, though! ;D

Ferry architecture is neat!

[Freeland]

I just got off the phone with Nick Hebert who was 2nd mate or Quarter Master of the Chetzemoka after WWII.

Turns out that the Chetzemoka in the early 50 that during a storm between Columbia Beach and Mukilteo, that the Car's Decks boards were popping loose.

Nick said that a logging truck was bouncing on two wheels and then would bounce on the other two wheels, from side to side. He said they were wanted to get the truck driver out of the cab.

He told me about five years ago he was not surprise it sank
while going around Tatoosh Island.

Emory on Whidbey

[FNS]

Time to don our hard hats again and pay a visit to NB's webcam.

Nichols has achieved another nice step forward in their contribution to the new CHETZEMOKA's construction.


By 1618PST yesterday, the first of the Saloon Deck's facial windows has been opened at End Number Two.


This morning, the rest of these windows are now open. They await the installation of the glass.

www2.whidbey.net/nichols/image003.jpg

[Freeland]

Thanks Ferrynut Seattle. That was too easy.
I see by the posted Cam shot that Nichols has the
number 2 caught up with the side that I been taking
pictures of. They have squeezed in another Passenger ship
that just came in. Also they have two extra tall canopies that
they have assemble. So shipyard is getting rather tight over
on the right or East side. I still have clear shot to the Chetzemoka.

Emory at Freeland

[FNS]

Twas the night before we turn the page to 2010, we have seen some wonderful progress in ferry construction.

All the Coastal class ferries have made it across the big seas and are in service, as well as the NORTHERN EXPEDITION up on the great northern waterways of British Columbia. The new ISLAND SKY adds some new touches of services on Jervis Inlet, and the BURRARD PACIFIC BREEZE (as a buoyant public bus) has made her first trips across Vancouver's great harbour shuttling transit riders as well as sightseers.

The Pacificats have departed BC and are becoming Persian SuperCats in the Middle East.

Down here on Puget Sound, we have witnessed the start of construction of a new breed of ferries for Admiralty Inlet. And, how sweet it is that the next new ferry that will be placed into service in 2010 will be named MV CHETZEMOKA.

I hope you've enjoyed the contribution of pictures from WSF, myself, Nichols Brothers, and the great fellow from Freeland in the progress of construction of the CHETZY. The story doesn't stop here, but will continue into 2010 as we see the major components mated together and this fine new ferry put into service. Two or more new ferries will follow her soon.

I close 2009 with this beautiful picture capture from Nichols. The face of End Number Two is nicely spiffied up. I can't wait to watch the scenery out those observatory windows!

WISHING YOU ALL FERRY NUTS IN THIS GREAT FORUM THE BEST AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!

LET'S MAKE 2010 A GREAT YEAR!!

[whidbeyislandguy]

So here are some shots of the Chetzemoka That I took this morning. I am sure in a few hours there will be more to come.. Freeland Ferrynutseattle and myself went on a small tour of her today.

Hope everyone likes them.


Looking up from passenger deck.


Looking out her front windows


Looking inside.


In wheel house


again in wheel house


on top 204

[Kahloke]

Jan 6, 2010 13:39:09 GMT -8 @whidbeyislandguy said:

So here are some shots of the Chetzemoka That I took this morning. I am sure in a few hours there will be more to come.. Freeland Ferrynutseattle and myself went on a small tour of her today.

Hope everyone likes them.

Very cool!

Jan 6, 2010 13:39:09 GMT -8 @whidbeyislandguy said:

again in wheel house

When complete, the bridge will probably end up looking similar to this (Island Home Bridge - Oct, 2008)

[lmtengs]

Jan 6, 2010 17:13:24 GMT -8 EGfleet said:

And here are some from Emory...

Where is the Hull being built?? I don't think the ferry is going to have a flat bottom with the passenger areas so close to the water...