|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 23, 2009 8:49:49 GMT -8
Those who have read the thread "ferry boat drawings" in the Washington page this week are familiar with the work of BC Ferries' brand-policy Here's what they have to say about it on their website: ====================== The head brand guy is Gabe Tonin. - here is his department's contact page: www.bcferries.com/corporate/brand_identity/approvals/index.htm============= Here's the explanation of what Brand Identity is supposed to be: www.bcferries.com/corporate/brand_identity/brand/what.htm================== I think this is the part where Gabe is telling us on this here forum that we're an agency that helps BC Ferries to communicate who they are to the world. I didn't realize that we were their ambassadors and that forum-members postings of drawings of ferries with crunched slugs was somehow an act of poor ambassadorship. Or maybe it's all just a big misunderstanding.... www.bcferries.com/corporate/brand_identity/brand/responsible.htm================== |
|
Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Oct 23, 2009 9:54:48 GMT -8
Kerryssi has remarked on the glut of management people at the top of BC Ferries, and I jokingly referred to the 'manager in charge of broom closets', or some such thing, but this story tends to lend credence to the accusation.
No personal disrespect intended to the person concerned, but a frivolous job title often gives rise to frivolous work. Is BC Ferries really so flush with cash that they can pay someone to oversee computer drawings on a small fan website? Have their managers been sitting around the boardroom dreaming about having a logo as iconic as the golden arches? Perhaps Olympic madness, and hyper-protectiveness over brands, is infectious. There was nothing in any of the posted illustrations that warranted any response from BC Ferries, other than, "Nice job, thanks for the free publicity."
I've never really had a problem with BC Ferries' wave logo, and I've not referred to it as 'mating slugs'. But now, I think that maybe we should do a variation on it, featuring little antennae and a realistic slime trail behind, and see if we can get management really excited...
|
|
|
|
Post by lmtengs on Oct 23, 2009 10:05:29 GMT -8
I've never really had a problem with BC Ferries' wave logo, and I've not referred to it as 'mating slugs'. But now, I think that maybe we should do a variation on it, featuring little antennae and a realistic slime trail behind, and see if we can get management really excited... This gives me an idea. We could all submit our own version of the slugs to a new thread in the forum flagship board, then on April Fools Day, it can be the flagship image! And here's my ARTISTIC REPRESENTATION* of the slugs:  fullsize: farm3.static.flickr.com/2665/4037312913_28b1bc705e_b.jpg*Note: This is only an artistic representation of what I think the 'waves' logo looks like. IT is not meant to be a realistic image of the ferry and since I do not use the REAL waves on the funnel, I can not be pestered for ruining BCF's brand Identity |
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 23, 2009 14:58:55 GMT -8
Director of Marketing would have a whole scope of responsibilities, Brand Management would be just one of them. Any printed materials, TV Ads, radio spots and transit ads/posters would often be part of someone's responsibility who had this title. BTW I am not against brand standards at all. They are important but some applications of such can be a bit over the top. Some brand guides for large corporations are literally a large binder(s). Particularly for a company where marketing is done across Canada.
I remember emailing Deborah Marshall for permission to reproduce on the forum portions of the Inside Passage Brochure as a tribute to the Queen of the North. I don't think it is necessary but since I am in the industry thought it would be the appropriate thing to do. She answered very promptly and refered me to someone in marketing. I forwarded my request to this individual and never heard back. I believe I sent one reminder. I can't check at the moment but I will later to see if it is the same person.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Oct 23, 2009 15:37:07 GMT -8
Director of Marketing would have a whole scope of responsibilities, Brand Management would be just one of them. Any printed materials, TV Ads, radio spots and transit ads/posters would often be part of someone's responsibility who had this title. BTW I am not against brand standards at all. They are important but some applications of such can be a bit over the top. Some brand guides for large corporations are literally a large binder(s). Particularly for a company where marketing is done across Canada. Understood, this chap has other files in his agenda, and using a company logo or image for commercial purposes, or in any way that reflects badly on the company, is a valid concern. Strictly speaking, companies have a right to restrict any use of their brand by others, but reacting to some innocuous computer drawings of ferries on a small forum like this serves no purpose, does nothing to protect brand integrity, and smacks of corporate heavy handedness. |
|
|
|
Post by lmtengs on Oct 23, 2009 16:05:28 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 24, 2009 5:48:10 GMT -8
Director of Marketing would have a whole scope of responsibilities, Brand Management would be just one of them. Any printed materials, TV Ads, radio spots and transit ads/posters would often be part of someone's responsibility who had this title. BTW I am not against brand standards at all. They are important but some applications of such can be a bit over the top. Some brand guides for large corporations are literally a large binder(s). Particularly for a company where marketing is done across Canada. Understood, this chap has other files in his agenda, and using a company logo or image for commercial purposes, or in any way that reflects badly on the company, is a valid concern. Strictly speaking, companies have a right to restrict any use of their brand by others, but reacting to some innocuous computer drawings of ferries on a small forum like this serves no purpose, does nothing to protect brand integrity, and smacks of corporate heavy handedness. I picture someone painting a ferry in a beautiful setting and someone from the corp holding up a Pantone Matching System booklet up to the painting to see exactly how the blue matches up. The PMS (don't go there) Matching booklet gives hundreds of colours and shades with the exact mix of printers ink to accomplish the result. But that is just for graphics and printing. That is much different than hand mixing paint for art. Pantone doesn't always match up with colours in other systems. For example a graphics friend of mine picked out a colour she wanted her walls in using PMS, and then had real fun trying to get the colour matched at the paint store. You then get even more complex by printing 5% to 100% of a given PMS numbered ink. Then when you actually print in 4 colour -which I won't explain here or you will fall asleep, it is only possible to get close to a particular PMS number but not exact. So what I am saying, particularly with printing, is some variation is always a fact. And there needs to be some flexibility. I accept the need for as much consistancy in official materials and for official uses of logos etc. But artwork that has a giant disclaimer on it just doesn't cut it whether computer generated or hand drawn or painted. |
|
|
|
Post by BreannaF on Oct 24, 2009 12:14:29 GMT -8
Just to add something about the computer version of printing --
My wife does some artwork on her computer. When she decides to get a new monitor, she always asks me to help her do something called "colour matching" that ensures that what she sees on the monitor is the same shade as the color she tells the software to do.
To go one step further, if I take a photo (or a graphic, for that matter) and put the same picture on her fancy monitor, on my cheapo monitor, and on the screen of my laptop, the pictures are going to look like three different things, especially when you compare them side-by-side.
In other words, what I see on my screen is not necessarily what you see on your screen, or what the marketing manager at BCF sees. It will be close, but not identical. And I would imagine that this applies not only to shades of blue, but also to minute differences in the size or aspect ratio of a particular graphic. (For example, does the website look the same on a square monitor as on a widescreen monitor?)
Again, I'm not really questioning a company's right to protect their mark. I'm just questioning whether even the output from one computer to another is as consistent as their standards.
|
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 24, 2009 16:41:51 GMT -8
I'm interested in understanding more of the facts of what happened between our fellow member and someone at BC Ferries regarding his drawings. There are lots of questions that I have, such as: - How was someone at BC Ferries able to contact a forum member who had a hidden email address? - Was the person at BC Ferries firm-but-polite, or threatening to our member? - What options or demands were given by BC Ferries to our member? And then there are questions about future issues: - If I wanted to post drawings of ferries, what does BC Ferries think of that? - Is BC Ferries only interested in the accuracy of current livery & logo, or are they also interested in the accuracy of the Expo livery, Pastel-blue livery and the dogwood logo? - What steps would BC Ferries take with me (or anyone else) who posts an image of a BC Ferries item that BC Ferries doesn't like? Assuming that our targeted member isn't comfortable posting the answers to these questions, and assuming that someone from BC Ferries won't (by policy) post on this forum, then I'm wondering if others are interested in someone from our forum emailing Gabe at BC Ferries to ask him for some answers. Of course, if our member from Whidbey Island has most of these answers, he could simply post here and make it easy for all of us....  |
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Oct 24, 2009 18:10:54 GMT -8
I have another question, specifically, is this really just about logos and colour schemes?
Do cartoonists like Adrian Raeside, Ingrid Rice, or Bob Krieger have to be concerned that BC Ferries might use some brand identity nonsense as a way to restrict comment that they find objectionable? Could BC Ferries be looking for a way to intimidate critics while hiding behind the reasonable sounding concern about people misappropriating their brand, or misrepresenting their image?
I don't think it's paranoia to at least wonder about their motivation here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 24, 2009 20:42:31 GMT -8
Short answer is as you say, every screen displays colour a little differently. There is a reason that graphic artists use garantuan screens with very high resolution and as you point out are colour matched. Even then there are some variation between screens. They pay much more than the rest of us that get ours at Staples or where-ever for the lower degree of variance.
Two graphic artists for a company I worked for, used to argue good naturedly who had the more accurate screen. In both official languages. However, if you are able to look at the coding behind the file, you can see if someone has chosen 300C or 305C in the pantone system. Whether you can access the coding off of something posted here or you need a full graphics file I have never bothered to find out. I know occasionally an artist wouldn't send all the appropriate fonts, files and codes and I would hear someone complain.
As a side piece of quite likely useless information, fonts also vary between software and systems. So that is why the artist also used to attach the font they used. Otherwise you found all sorts of odd differences in line length and words falling in different places than the artwork that had been prepared. Not a good thing when you have a two page brochure that turns out to be two pages and an extra half line.
|
|
|
|
Post by whidbeyislandguy on Oct 28, 2009 23:11:50 GMT -8
Well Flugel Horn has asked that I think about sharing with you all what has gone on with myself and BC Ferries. I guess what it boils down to is that my drawings with use of the their logo aka their Brand Identity was just too close to home. I freely admit I took artistic liberties with the logo "Brand Identity" and colors. As they were not meant as a technical drawing. While it was never told to me if their reason for having stop and change things was that A. they liked them and want to use them.. B. felt like it was copyright infringement.. or C. worried i was making a profit off of the drawings with their "Brand Identity".. In any case The only thing i know of to point out to anyone who wishes to do drawings is if doing the full logo like I did. make sure you follow the rules for the company! I guess part of me thinks that they took the whole thing to far, and another part of me thinks they are just protecting them self with as someone else said the Olympics coming.  ----- All vessels are painted white and carry the BC Ferries logo and, in most cases, the funnel wave graphic on port and starboard sides. All vessels also carry a blue stripe. Wherever possible, the blue stripe wraps the entire vessel. The logo, funnel and stripe are painted blue to match BC Ferries Blue, which is equivalent to PMS 541. The funnel wave graphic is painted white against the BC Ferries Blue background. The logo and funnel wave graphic are applied with the aide of a full-size template available through Deas Pacific Marine Sign Shop. All vessels also carry the vessel name and Port of Registry. These are applied as individually cut vinyl elements prepared by Deas Pacific Marine Sign Shop. Each vessel has been individually reviewed and specifications are provided for each. Please follow the size and location specifications carefully and do not apply specifications from one vessel to another. Paint and vinyl specifications are provided on the following sheets. For reference, the approved BC Ferries Blue paint sample was provided by: Camcoat Industries The Following is one of BC Ferries "Brand Identity" Drawings. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by Curtis on Oct 29, 2009 6:30:46 GMT -8
The Following is one of BC Ferries "Brand Identity" Drawings. Looks just like the C Class model you can get in the gift shop... (is it a book stop? a paperweight? it's something along those lines) |
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 29, 2009 7:05:53 GMT -8
While it was never told to me if their reason for having stop and change things was that A. they liked them and want to use them.. B. felt like it was copyright infringement.. or C. worried i was making a profit off of the drawings with their "Brand Identity".. I don't really understand the above quote. Here's what I'm interested in knowing: ------------------------------- Did BC Ferries actually contact you? How did BC Ferries contact you? Did they demand that you remove your drawings from this forum's threads? Did they threaten you with anything, or was it a polite request? ---------------------- Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by Taxman on Oct 29, 2009 8:40:24 GMT -8
Most likely they would be concerned with the tort of "passing off"... (this is where billables would be useful). I refer you to "NHL v. Pepsi-Cola" for a discussion, there is also "Lions Gate Enterprises v. Ohana Sushi Japanese Restaurant" www.bereskinparr.com/ENG/News/RecentDecisions/pub_rcd_apr_2000.htmlWhile there has been goodwill of the brand developed, due to your disclaimer (I can't recall exactly, but you made it clear this was not affiliated with BC Ferries) and I doubt BC Ferries could at any point say that they can point to damages or confusion. That said, as long as BC Ferries cooperates, as they have in the past, allowing us to learn more about our nautical interest, we should respect thier requests and 'not make waves'. I am surprised Marine Atlantic doesn't go after BC Ferries for the "passing off". |
|
|
|
Post by whidbeyislandguy on Oct 29, 2009 10:15:01 GMT -8
While it was never told to me if their reason for having stop and change things was that A. they liked them and want to use them.. B. felt like it was copyright infringement.. or C. worried i was making a profit off of the drawings with their "Brand Identity".. I don't really understand the above quote. Here's what I'm interested in knowing: ------------------------------- Did BC Ferries actually contact you? How did BC Ferries contact you? Did they demand that you remove your drawings from this forum's threads? Did they threaten you with anything, or was it a polite request? ---------------------- Thanks. I do not feel comfortable going into full detail on here. As I have stated before, they are correct I used the logo on my drawings changed and was in violation of the what they allow. Short of it. Yes I was contacted, The demand was given, and yes I agreed to remove. As I have said before I guess part of me thinks that they took the whole thing to far, and another part of me thinks they are just protecting themselves. They are fully within their rights. |
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Oct 29, 2009 10:39:06 GMT -8
Being vindictive will erase any good will faster than an anchor can let go from a Spirit Ferry. It may also mean a deterioation in what the forum members may eventually win from BC Ferries if such vindictiveness is allowed to happen or continue. Explain? |
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Oct 29, 2009 14:20:28 GMT -8
It comes down to reputation. It can take years to build, only to have it destroyed in less than the time it took for the anchor to drop from the Spirit ferry. Seen that happen. In one instance it took a year for myself and others to repair the damage done by others and it was never fully recovered since. It's also a matter of what approach when it comes to critical comment forum members want to take, at their own reputation's risk and possibily that of the forum. I don't have any concern for my reputation with regard to anything I've posted in this thread, and I don't think anyone else need be concerned about anything they've posted either. In the past, I've been called a 'company apologist' for taking management's side when I felt they were right. People do tend to want to define debate according to their own biases, even when they don't admit to having any. In any event, this would be a poor place if we self-censored fair comment and stifled questions out of fear that BC Ferries' management might revoke our bridge tour privileges for not playing nice. |
|
