Passenger Only Ferries

[EGfleet]

Passenger Ferries to Go Up for Auction on eBay

By Ed Friedrich (Contact)
Tuesday, November 13, 2007


Fast ferries will join pet rocks, alarm clocks and Shatner's old toupee on eBay.

As early as next week, the state Department of Transportation will try to sell its former dream boats, the Chinook and Snohomish, on the online auction site. They've been tied up at the Eagle Harbor maintenance facility since financial troubles forced Washington State Ferries to shut down passenger-only service to Bremerton in September 2003.

The ferries system might use a "hidden reserve" — secret minimum bid — that likely will be more than the appraised fair market value of $4.5 million per boat, said Washington State Ferries spokeswoman Marta Coursey. It doesn't plan to use eBay's "buy it now" feature.

The most expensive item ever sold on eBay was a private business jet for $4.9 million, according to eBay spokeswoman Kim Rubey.

A law passed in April required the Department of Transportation to make the ferries available for sale by June 1. The proceeds would be deposited into a passenger ferry account and awarded as grants for other ferry systems to operate passenger-only service.

Early this month, the Port of Kingston asked the state for $900,000 from the fund to help start a route between Kingston and downtown Seattle. King County also will be seeking funds after the council voted Tuesday to take over the state's route between Vashon Island and downtown Seattle, run the Elliott Bay water taxi year around and test five other runs on Puget Sound and Lake Washington. Besides any grant money it receives, King County will collect $18 million a year in property taxes to pay for its system.

This won't be the state's first experience with eBay. In November 2003, it sold the passenger ferry Tyee for $560,000, sight unseen, to Frederick Gutchell of Cape Canaveral, Fla. Without touching the 270-passenger boat, he turned around and sold it for $750,000 to Aqua Express, which operated it between Kingston and Seattle for nine months in 2005.

Even at $750,000, it was a good deal, said Darrell Bryan of Clipper Navigation, one of four Aqua Express partners. It was well-maintained and came with many spare parts.

Aqua Express had expected to get the ferry at the minimum bid of $500,000, but after three days Gutchell met the "buy it now" price of $560,000.

The Chinook and Snohomish were the first of a fleet of fast ferries that the state envisioned zipping from new terminals at Kingston, Bremerton and Southworth to downtown Seattle in a half-hour. They would cruise at 35 knots and carry 350 people.

Rich Passage waterfront property owners sued the ferry system, alleging that the Chinook's wake was damaging their beaches and harming marine life. A judge in August 1999 ordered it to slow to 12 knots through the strait, making its crossing nearly as long as a car ferry.

Then voters passed Initiative 695 in November 1999, eliminating license-tab taxes that contributed much of WSF's revenues. The courts were in the process of throwing the initiative out, but the Legislature bowed to the people and passed the tax break on their own. A couple of weeks later, the state said it wouldn't have the money to operate passenger-only ferries much longer.

Bryan, of Aqua Express, said the Chinook and Snohomish are well-built boats, but they haven't been run in a while and don't have galleys. They might be a nice fit in the Bay Area, where the routes are longer, the water is rougher and the operators have money. They're too big and suck too much fuel to make them attractive for most uses in Puget Sound, he said.

The Chinook began service in May 1998 and the Snohomish in September 1999. They cost $9.7 million and $9.8 million, respectively.

All eBay listings are limited to 10 days, but items can be re-listed. If WSF's eBay efforts fail, it will list the ferries through a marine broker, Coursey said.

[zman]

I was wondering when they were going to try that...WSF has been holding on to them far too long, on account of the fact they knew they would not go back into service.

[hergfest]

Notice that King County passed the ferry district tax before the legislature approved Gregoire's 1% cap on property tax increases?

[Barnacle]

[OT] The one-percent property tax cap is meaningless anyway. It limits the tax rate to one percent increases; it doesn't limit your property values to that same increase.
[/ot]

[Northern Exploration]

Since Markus was locked up I will try my post here. Markus are you going to bid? Think how jealous your buddies will be!

[Barnacle]

I suspect the use of the Snohomish at Port Townsend during this period of inevitable crisis may slow this plan down a touch...

[SS San Mateo]

The Chinook has been put up for sale on eBay.

Here is the listing

[BreannaF]

OK. Potential Buyers:

• Somebody who wants to run a Vancouver to Naniamo service?
  
• Another guy in Florida who hasn't heard of the recent undersea travels of the Snohomish.
  
• That company in Las Vegas who also purchased the toasted cheese sandwich with the picture of the Virgin Mary burnt into it.
  
• Other ideas?
  

I'm afraid the next list will be longer.

Probably Not Potential Buyers:

• Anybody trying to re-create a service to Vashon, Bremerton, or Kingston. I think we've been there and done that.
  
• A Seattle tour boat? Not likely, the design is just wrong.
  
• Anyone looking to use the proceeds of the sale to start a service in Puget Sound, since they would have already lobbied to get the boat outright.
  
• And, I can't think of any two points in Lake Washington or Lake Union, or between the two, where this boat would make sense.
  
• Myself. Mrs. K said I can't buy anything off of eBay that I can't fit in a shopping cart. It wouldn't even make a great pleasure craft, anyway.
  

OK. So beyond a couple of flippant items here, really, seriously, who would possibly be the buyer for this thing?

[Barnacle]

For that price? Nobody. They'll be lucky to get $2.5M for the pair.

[SS San Mateo]

No one bids for $4.5 million ferry

seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120ap_ferry_for_sale.html?source=mypi

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SEATTLE -- An online auction for the high-speed passenger ferry MV Chinook has ended without even one bid.

The Washington state Transportation Department was asking at least $4.5 million for the vessel, but the auction ended Sunday night on eBay without any interest.

The Chinoook was built in 1998 for service between Seattle and Bremerton. The state later ended those passenger-only runs, and the boat has not been in service for four years.

The state planned to give money from the sale of the vessel to King County, which is starting passenger ferry service between Seattle and Vashon Island.

There's no immediate word on the state's next plan for the Chinook.

[SS Shasta]

Why doesn't the State give the vessel to King County for the replacement service to Vashon Island?

[SS San Mateo]

shasta said:

Why doesn't the State give the vessel to King County for the replacement service to Vashon Island?

Because they're required to sell the vessel (along with the Snohomish) as part of the law that allows King County to take over the route (and create other ones).

The docking facility at Vashon would have to be modified to allow the Chinook to be used (the gangplanks there won't work with the Chinook).

[Barnacle]

shasta said:

Why doesn't the State give the vessel to King County for the replacement service to Vashon Island?

Because it's a dog to run?

[SS San Mateo]

Ferry Chinook put back on eBay

seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004262070_webchinook05m.html

By Susan Gilmore

Seattle Times staff reporter

Washington State Ferries has again put its passenger boat Chinook on eBay.

Last month, the state advertised the boat was for sale but got no bidders. It relisted the ferry Tuesday, with the same $4.5 million starting bid. Bidding ends March 14.

While the state got no bids last month, it did receive several phone calls, said Traci Brewer-Rogstad, deputy executive director of the ferries.

"Rather than play a guessing game on a price, we decided to put it back on at the same price," she said, adding that when the state Legislature directed the agency to sell the Chinook and its sister ship, the Snohomish, it was to get market value for the vessels.

"We're trying to sell the boats," said Brewer-Rogstad, "but not at a heavily discounted price."

The Chinook has been mothballed at the Eagle Harbor maintenance yard for the past four years.

The state had planned to sell the Chinook and the Snohomish, both passenger ferries that ran between Bremerton and Seattle until the state pulled out of the route. The state was hoping to get $9 million for both boats.

But the Snohomish has been put back in service, first to run between Port Townsend and Keystone when the four Steel Electric Class boats were pulled out of service and more recently between Seattle and Bremerton when another boat was disabled.

Brewer-Rogstad couldn't say what will happen if this latest eBay listing fails to sell the Chinook.

Tim McGuigan, director of legal services for the ferry system, said the Chinook will be re-examined today and there could be a third eBay listing at a revised minimum bid.

Susan Gilmore: 206-464-2054 or [e-mail]

Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company

[SS San Mateo]

From the "Gee... what a shocker" file...

2'nd listing of the Chinook ends with (yep, you guessed it) no bids .

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350032955587

[SS San Mateo]

Report: Ferry Chinook not really a money pit

www.komotv.com/news/16805196.html

By KOMO Staff & Seattle Weekly
Watch the story SEATTLE -- There's a new twist to the state's ferry fiasco.

The passenger-only ferry Chinook, which was listed on eBay on two different occasions and each time failed to get any bids, could actually bet put back in service at a much lower cost than what the ferry system first projected.

The state's $4.5 million starting bid for the ferry failed to entice anyone on the online auction site. But it appears the ferry could be put back in service at a much lower cost.

Lawmakers were told to pull the ferries Chinook and Snohomish out of service because the side-loading boats are incompatible with all but one dock - Pier 50 in Seattle - in the system.

Since then the Snohomish has been retrofitted to work as a replacement ferry, but not the Chinook.

That's because the lawmakers were told the cost of reinstating the Chinook would be $4 million, which makes it much more practical to sell the vessel.

But KOMO 4's partner the Seattle Weekly has learned the cost of getting the Chinook back in service would cost up to $1 million.

It turns out the state ferry system has in inventory the bow-loading kit that would make the ferry compatible with all the docks in the system. The repair job would cost anywhere from $75,000 to $1 million.

The Seattle Weekly confirmed its findings with ferry officials, but the information was never given to the House Transportation Committee while it was deciding the fate of the Chinook.

Some committee members say knowing the Chinook could be made to work in an emergency would have changed their plans, and might have provided a small solution to the disrupted runs plaguing the ferry system.

But Department of Transportation Chief Assistant Steve Reinmuth says lawmakers asked for a way to get out of the passenger-only ferry business, not a way to keep the Chinook in service.

Read the entire story on the Seattle Weekly's Web site.

[In Washington]

If any of the people claiming they were mislead had read the 2005 report from WSF they would have had the information about the bow loading kit for the Chinook. It has been available for about 5 years or more.

They also could have read the Ebay ad which spells out the availability of the kit as well as saying that all four engines are at or near the end of their service life, per the manufacturer. All four are right at about 9000 hrs.

It seems like all politicians are crawling onto the "WSF didn't tell us" bandwagon. Is anyone going to figure out that the politicians are covering their behinds and using WSF as somewhat of the scapegoat?

Then again, maybe it is just me...

[EGfleet]

vashondude said:

Report: Ferry Chinook not really a money pit

www.komotv.com/news/16805196.html

By KOMO Staff & Seattle Weekly
Watch the story SEATTLE -- There's a new twist to the state's ferry fiasco.

The passenger-only ferry Chinook, which was listed on eBay on two different occasions and each time failed to get any bids, could actually bet put back in service at a much lower cost than what the ferry system first projected.

The state's $4.5 million starting bid for the ferry failed to entice anyone on the online auction site. But it appears the ferry could be put back in service at a much lower cost.

Lawmakers were told to pull the ferries Chinook and Snohomish out of service because the side-loading boats are incompatible with all but one dock - Pier 50 in Seattle - in the system.

Since then the Snohomish has been retrofitted to work as a replacement ferry, but not the Chinook.

That's because the lawmakers were told the cost of reinstating the Chinook would be $4 million, which makes it much more practical to sell the vessel.

But KOMO 4's partner the Seattle Weekly has learned the cost of getting the Chinook back in service would cost up to $1 million.

It turns out the state ferry system has in inventory the bow-loading kit that would make the ferry compatible with all the docks in the system. The repair job would cost anywhere from $75,000 to $1 million.

The Seattle Weekly confirmed its findings with ferry officials, but the information was never given to the House Transportation Committee while it was deciding the fate of the Chinook.

Some committee members say knowing the Chinook could be made to work in an emergency would have changed their plans, and might have provided a small solution to the disrupted runs plaguing the ferry system.

But Department of Transportation Chief Assistant Steve Reinmuth says lawmakers asked for a way to get out of the passenger-only ferry business, not a way to keep the Chinook in service.

Read the entire story on the Seattle Weekly's Web site.

It would seem our legislature can't read. I'm pretty sure the kit for bow loading was included on the Ebay listing.

Also, I wish they wouldn't refer to it as a "repair." It isn't a repair--there is nothing "broken" on the bow of the Chinook. It's a modification.

But really, all that needs to be said about this "issue" is right in the article:
Department of Transportation Chief Assistant Steve Reinmuth says lawmakers asked for a way to get out of the passenger-only ferry business, not a way to keep the Chinook in service.

[In Washington]

And by the way... The Snohomish was not converted, she came from Anacortes with the bowloading capability.

[Barnacle]

That was what I thought.

[chokai]

Anyone ride it yet or hear anything about if anyone is actually riding it? (other than ferry buffs :-P)

I ask mostly because a coworker who is from there has started an online petition www.seattle2pt.com/ to support it. Today they've been fielding calls from the big Seattle papers. I know certain people in Port Townsend have been clamoring for this for a long time.

Anyways I already pointed out several issues to them with it, such as the fuel consumption of the Snohomish and Chinook if they were the boats used.

[boatingteam007]

I agree with you. Tossed like a toy is not an understatement. I've worked for Seawear fisheries in AK for the past 15 years and I know a thing or two about boats.

But I think they might be on to something, this site www.seattle2PT.com seems like a great grass roots campaign. I use to have family in PT and they since moved because there isn't any jobs, they tried the commute for a few years but after wear and tear on there cars and spending more than 25$ a day to get to work they decided it would be a better option to leave.

Brad

[Barnacle]

The current set-up is only a temporary measure. The Chinook and Snohomish are the last boats to be used on a long-term basis if anyone wants it to actually work. They're seriously fuel-hungry boats, and the numbers really haven't done much to show that there is sufficient interest... I don't think the numbers are broaching 300 per day, let alone 300 per trip.

[BreannaF]

Well, I will agree that the site represents a grass-roots campaign......

I have already stated elsewhere that I am in favour of making available as many transit options as possible. They make commuting easier and environmentally better. They can help bring prosperity to an area.

However, I can't see anything being said on how anyone proposes to get enough riders on such a run to make it worth doing. I'm not even talking about "profitable" here, I am just talking about making it justifiable.

It costs a lot of money to keep that passenger only ferry going. It is an option in an emergency situation, but not in normal service. It would take certainly more than 50 commuters, and likely over 200 or 300 passengers per day (just to throw out a guess), before it might even make sense to even be discussing such a thing as a Seattle-PT route. Likely a lot more.

It's easy to collect names on a website of people who would like to see such a service in place. It's something else entirely to add what would be, at best, a marginally used service to a ferry system that is already being drawn to a point financially beyond its limits by the removal of the S-E ferries and the imperfect condition of some of the other boats. In other words, a ferry system that is resorting to borrowing small ferries from other ferry operators and looking to the governor to find every last dollar possible to build and maintain the ferry routes they have now certainly doesn't have the extra funding available to operate a new ferry route. It's just common sense.

Now, if this grass roots group wants to get this route going some time in the future when there might be funding available, I would suggest some actual action. Things to try:

• Come up with names of actual people who would benefit from this route on a regular basis. (And, here, I am speaking of regular riders, not a vague notion that business in PT will be improved by such a run.)
  
• Actually get together a group and start a bus service that uses the same route: say PT to Kingston and across to Seattle. Having a lot of users on such a service could prove a need for a boat.
  
• Start a grass roots effort to get PT businesses to work together on marketing for both retail and tourism -- something to get more people moving in that direction.
  
• Be willing to work with WSF on other complementary efforts to get people in and out of the PT and Olympic Peninsula region. Demanding services from WSF (like not making terminal improvements or only allowing smaller ferries into PT) doesn't seem like it would be compatible with getting a new passenger ferry in there.

I really think it would be a good thing to have lots of passenger services in Puget Sound, including one like this. But I just don't see anything on that website that makes a realistic argument for a PT to Seattle PO ferry service. Other than just saying "pretty please keep it now that it's here". That doesn't work in real life.

Best wishes in working for such a goal in the future.

[chokai]

Can Evergreen, Barnacle or someone provide some history on the engine situation with the Snohomish and Chinook and how we got to where we are?

I'm curious as to whether they could be re-engined to be more efficient without costing more than the boats themselves are worth. I'm additionally intrigued because King County is supposedly going to take over the Vashon POF here at some point.