FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Jun 7, 2013 22:09:01 GMT -8
EGfleet just updated the Klickitat page on his website with some new info that casts doubt into whether the ferry actually got scrapped. He posted a picture which, although low-quality, shows a ferry that resembles the Klickitat. So if it really is the Klickitat, then it could have safely stayed in service on the Keystone run while the KdTs were being built. Imagine what Port Townsend and Whidbey Island residents will think when they find out about this! Are you aware of how low the safety and inspection standards are for commercial vessels in many developing countries? Would you really want those standards applied in the U.S., just for the sake of keeping favorite old rustbuckets in service? Be careful what you wish for. Here's another old ferry that formerly served in crossing(s) here in the USA. This video shows a modified ferry that most likely served on the Staten Island to Brooklyn run. Ferry Boat Guaiquerà llega a Puerto Sucre, Cumaná
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 7, 2013 22:24:55 GMT -8
EGfleet just updated the Klickitat page on his website with some new info that casts doubt into whether the ferry actually got scrapped. He posted a picture which, although low-quality, shows a ferry that resembles the Klickitat. So if it really is the Klickitat, then it could have safely stayed in service on the Keystone run while the KdTs were being built. Imagine what Port Townsend and Whidbey Island residents will think when they find out about this! Are you aware of how low the safety and inspection standards are for commercial vessels in many developing countries? Would you really want those standards applied in the U.S., just for the sake of keeping favorite old rustbuckets in service? Be careful what you wish for. And yet a non-profit group just finished a complete top-down renovation of the last White Star Line vessel afloat - a ferry that was used to and built for the task of hauling freight and passengers to the famed RMS Titanic. And that boat is 103 years old, counting the time it took from keel laying. That ferry? The S.S. Nomadic. Nothing is impossible. And the Steel Electrics? Yeah, I'd be a bit miffed at finding out that the Klickitat is still alive and well six years after they were yanked out of service costing the community of Port Townsend rather badly...
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Jun 7, 2013 22:55:43 GMT -8
Are you aware of how low the safety and inspection standards are for commercial vessels in many developing countries? Would you really want those standards applied in the U.S., just for the sake of keeping favorite old rustbuckets in service? Be careful what you wish for. And yet a non-profit group just finished a complete top-down renovation of the last White Star Line vessel afloat - a ferry that was used to and built for the task of hauling freight and passengers to the famed RMS Titanic. And that boat is 103 years old, counting the time it took from keel laying. That ferry? The S.S. Nomadic. Nothing is impossible. And the Steel Electrics? Yeah, I'd be a bit miffed at finding out that the Klickitat is still alive and well six years after they were yanked out of service costing the community of Port Townsend rather badly... I am not a resident of Washington State, but I am a part-time user, so take my thoughts for what they are worth... I think that what happened on Port Townsend/Keystone basically gave the users of the route the proverbial middle finger. I was absolutely shocked with what unfolded - what a gong show. It was a display of a total lack of foresight of the politicians of the time. I don't think anyone denies this. However, the Steel Electrics were by no means an important historical artifact to anyone outside of this forum, aside from perhaps a few crew members, and the notion that a non-profit group (or WSF) would have kept this ferry in service is a bit ridiculous. The vessels were at an unacceptable age and condition for ferry operation, and had been for about 25 years prior to the yank. compdude787: It is also ridiculous to think that just because a vessel is cleared to operate in a third-world country, it is therefore safe to operate. Not a chance. I am not sure what you are hearing, but word on the street (and on the Associated Press) is that thousands of people die every year from inadequate safety precautions and poor operating/vessel conditions. If you don't believe me, I invite you to have a scroll through our International Ferries section of this very forum to see for yourself...
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 7, 2013 23:37:01 GMT -8
EGfleet just updated the Klickitat page on his website with some new info that casts doubt into whether the ferry actually got scrapped. He posted a picture which, although low-quality, shows a ferry that resembles the Klickitat. So if it really is the Klickitat, then it could have safely stayed in service on the Keystone run while the KdTs were being built. Imagine what Port Townsend and Whidbey Island residents will think when they find out about this! photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/18/12817569-ferry-capsizes-off-zanzibar-killing-dozens?lite Yeah, using that logic, we would load up another deck, overload it, and it would sink. There is a reason we have regulations is due to the fact that third-world standards are quite low to where the safety of crossing is questionable.
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Jun 8, 2013 6:28:13 GMT -8
I am not a resident of Washington State, but I am a part-time user, so take my thoughts for what they are worth... I think that what happened on Port Townsend/Keystone basically gave the users of the route the proverbial middle finger. I was absolutely shocked with what unfolded - what a gong show. It was a display of a total lack of foresight of the politicians of the time. I don't think anyone denies this. However, the Steel Electrics were by no means an important historical artifact to anyone outside of this forum, aside from perhaps a few crew members, and the notion that a non-profit group (or WSF) would have kept this ferry in service is a bit ridiculous. The vessels were at an unacceptable age and condition for ferry operation, and had been for about 25 years prior to the yank. 100% agree with everything you've written here. Everything of historic value on those boats was stripped off when they lost their wooden cabins in the 80s--except for the brass rails from the cardeck up to the passenger cabin as Barnacle points out. Though I will add that in actuality, the Steel Electrics hadn't met safety standards in fifty years. The Coast Guard had been granting them waivers since the 1950's. I posted that photo in the hope that someone somewhere would see it and send another one--either confirming the Klick's continued existence or sending me a photo of her being cut down in Ensenada. One blurry cellphone photo isn't enough to convince me one way or another that it actually is the Klickitat. I have serious doubts. The state can wriggle out of any kind of controversy about the ferry still being around (if that is the case) quite easily for the reasons already stated: different safety standards from country to country and once the vessel was sold and out of their hands, they had no control over what happened to it. What is unfortunate is that the artificially created crisis by the DOT has stuck us with inferior boats. I'll never say the state should have kept them, but they should have patched up the two that were in the best shape and kept them in service until properly designed replacements were in service. Too many politicians had their fingers in this mess, each determined to leave their "legacy" on the DOT. This is a problem that has existed in this state since the late 70's and results in a collective amnesia--what's going on with the Tub Toys is, to a large extent, a replay of what happened with the Issaquahs. WSF's new ferries seem to follow the pattern of releases of Windows--every other one is full of bugs and needs fixing before it is right. If the pattern holds, then the Olympic Class should work out just fine. Here's hoping. Meanwhile, I've got my fingers crossed that sometime soon someone will send me a nice clear photo--showing a now 86 year old Klickitat sailing merrily away--or one showing her hull in various pieces in Mexico. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted on whatever happens.
|
|
|
Post by rusty on Jun 8, 2013 8:50:31 GMT -8
One small question have I: in all the pictures of the Steels being scrapped there is no Klickitat. As the Klick was pretty much good to go, would the Mexicans have put her on the run? If someone has proof of her being scrapped I'd like to see it. Or maybe not. Because--the Klickitat stills lives (in my dreams) somewhere in Mexico or points to the south. .
|
|
|
Post by Ferryman on Jun 8, 2013 10:20:58 GMT -8
I had a look at the article which held the photo in question. I'm feeling pretty convinced that the Klickitat is still running after seeing that photo. That's very interesting though since we have seen very clear photos of the other sisters being broken up, but not of the Klickitat. I had always dismissed that until now, with always having the assumption that she was either broken up quickly or just didn't make it into the field of view of the cameraman. However, this photo is already a year old so anything could have happened between now and then. I'd be curious to sift through any ferry disasters over the past year to see if anything comes up. I also tried to do various searches for "Venezuala Ferry" on Google, however came back with no results.
Venezuala is quite a distance from Ensenada, so I'd also be very curious to know how that voyage was while going from Ensenada, through the Panama and across the Carribean Sea to Venezuala.
I don't think it's really fair to say that they should have kept these vessels in service any longer. The fact that these vessels hulls were in service for 80 years is quite amazing. The line has to be drawn somewhere though, where it's no longer acceptable to run them anymore. With my limited experience with working on old Ferries, they need constant maintenance on just about everything. They might look alright on the outside, but when you start looking at the guts of these things, you start to realize very quickly that there's alot more to it than just slapping on a coat of paint to cover up the rust. It always amazes me at the State of Washingtons near dismissal of sailing old and decrepid vessels without too much hesitation, and in this case it was to the point where the hull was rotten. I remember reading somewhere not too long ago that the Issaquah Class could be changed over to LNG power soon? Now would be a good time to replace those vessels and the Supers, and not how you can find ways to make these vessels continue to sail for another 20-30 years. Retrofits to existing vessels are always questionable with whether or not it will be successful or not. If not, you'll realize very quickly that it would have been easier to design and build something that was meant to accomodate new technology.
Peronally, I'm quite thankful that there are regulations there to help protect us all from disaster. Always consider the inquiries after any accident, and think of the point of view during an investigation as to why that incident happened, and how it could have been prevented. It's quite sad actually when third world countries rely on first world waste to run their countries infrastructure. Especially when you find out through the media of a disaster that occured on that vessel that was meant to be scrapped a few years prior, and lots of lives were lost largely due to improper inspection and regulation.
|
|
mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
|
Post by mrdot on Jun 8, 2013 11:31:58 GMT -8
:)I am still fumbling around on this new 'improved website' but I wish to comment the new 'evergreen fleet' day page and the new material on the 'steel electrics' I remember so well, going back to the 1950's out of Sidney, a big like to this site! mrdot.
|
|
|
Post by rusty on Jun 8, 2013 11:33:13 GMT -8
I believe that because WSDOT signed a contract to build the 144's with money allocated for the replacement of the Steel Electrics, that they felt a need to crowbar the process by tying up the Steels. They could of patched them up (which was pretty much already accomplished on the Quinault), and run them for a few more years. Regardless of the corrosion issue, the boats were structurally flawed, which was evidenced in the International Inspection report that WSDOT had commissioned.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 11:49:23 GMT -8
This is the S.S. Nomadic. She was launched on April 25, 1911 and was built to ferry passengers and freight to the Olympic-class liners from the White Star Line, including RMS Olympic and RMS Titanic. She was delivered to the White Star Line on May 27. Her keel was laid down on December 22, 1910. This is the S.S. Nomadic, afloat dockside on the Seine in Paris, photographed in 2000. Regardless of the fact that she was restored by a non-profit, she is still a very structurally sound vessel and was found to be free of leaks, although over time she'd had her fittings gutted. The fact that a 103-year-old vessel can be completely restored and kept seaworthy for so long stands as a sound rebuttal to anybody saying that the Steel Electrics couldn't have been in service until sound replacements could have been designed and built. And work is being done now on the S.S. Nomadic, to restore her to 100% functionality as she was back when Olympic and Titanic took their maiden voyages! It also goes further to say that the state could have (and it would've been cheaper to do so), rehabilitate them for backup/ reserve status than it would be for new vessel construction. Case in point #1: It has been estimated and stated in various sources that in order to make the Kalakala's hull structurally sound and seaworthy for another 50 years, (read: virtually new steel plating from the keel to the car deck) it would cost roughly $13-15 million. Some portions of the hulls on all four Steel Electrics had been replaced throughout time, so it's an unfair assessment to say that the hulls in their entirety were in bad shape. That's far cheaper than the entire build cost of ONE KDT! Case in point #2: I was also given a photo CD by a professional photographer who was hired by the state and by a local newspaper to photograph the decomissioning of the Steel Electrics and while the hulls had issues in some spots, other spots of the hulls looked structurally sound and totally within legal operating perameters. Keep in mind it was the state who yanked them - not the Coast Guard. I was given that CD for research purposes in developing my Flight Simulator ferries project. In those photos on that CD I received, is an entire gallery consisting of over 300 photos of the engine rooms of the Klickitat and of the Quinault alone. The engine rooms of both ferries were practically like-new in appearance when they were scrapped, which tells me that the engine room and operating components of the ferries were well maintained and in perfect working order when they were retired. Also, in my research for a documentary I've been working on regarding WSF and the funding woes WSF has faced since I-695 was passed, I have interviewed dozens of Port Townsend residents who were angry at the state for the sudden and warrantless retirement of the Steel Electrics, including the Klickitat. Over six years has passed and Port Townsend still wears scars of that in the form of business storefronts standing vacant. 25% of Port Townsend's businesses closed when the S/E's were retired. And to say that the Klickitat doesn't hold historical significance to anyone outside this board is factually incorrect. Several residents of Port Townsend I've spoken to were quite fond of her.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Jun 8, 2013 12:39:04 GMT -8
So, tell me, what kind of regular daily revenue service is the Nomadic expected to perform?
I'm also sure the Steel-Electrics would be in better shape if they'd been kept in fresh water since 1968 as well.
The engine rooms may have been "practically like new in appearance", but you've already included the modifiers in that sentence to indicate that they WEREN'T new. Moreover, anything looks new with a fresh coat of paint. The hulls were surveyed and found to be wasted along the waterline plating, despite how new they looked from the inside.
Lastly, a handful of anecdotal fondness does not constitute historical significance. Nobody in Port Townsend stepped up when offered the opportunity to meet the scrap value bid and purchase a Steel Electric. And why would they? I've stated before that the only portions of the original boats still in service were the middle two thirds of the hull, half the curtain plating, the drive motors, and the brass rails going up the stairs.
|
|
|
Post by Ferryman on Jun 8, 2013 12:58:49 GMT -8
The Nomadic is a bit of a poor example in comparison to the Steel Electric Ferries. Yes, the Nomadic is 103 years old, and yes the money was spent to keep her around. However in reality, that ship wasn't run on a constant basis for those 103 years. She spent a number of years as a floating restaurant, and tied up with an uncertain future until a preservation society was able to take over. Not to mention that she is only one of a very small handful of vessels in the world that have been preserved and maintained. Even then, the majority of them probably wouldn't be able to run under their own power still. Plus, it's not running a minimum of 16 hours a day, everyday?
One can patch up the steelwork all you want, but you're still going to have a very very old vessel with very old components. When it comes to taxpayers money, people don't like seeing Government spending endless amounts of money to preserve old Ferries when that money could have been put towards a new vessel. I can understand the Washington Government's thought process for deciding to pull those ferries when they did, because too much work would be needed to properly keep them going any longer. It was very obvious at the time that it was going to turn into a can of worms, and in hindsight those $13-15 million repairs to the hull would be a low estimate and there would likely be alot of unforseen issues that would pop up. It's the reality of retrofits and renovations. Even after repairs, the question would have been asked of how safe those vessels actually are. Obviously there wasn't alot of foresight to see that those vessels were needing to be replaced very soon, and unfortunately the residents had to pay a price in the meantime because of that. WSF did all that they could with what they had available to them to restore some sort of service to Port Townsend which is what everyone should be thankful for. One can only hope that there were some major lessons learned from this, and that this won't happen again with the rest of the aging fleet which in reality, probably aren't too far behind.
At the end of the day, at least you now have at least three brand new ferries to replace those vessels. No lives were lost in the process, and the safety of the people was the most important factor of it all. The KDT Ferries manage to get the traveling public from point A to point B which is all they're meant to do, and all that the general public really cares about. Yes, the design and propulsion could be better, but those are things that could and will be ironed out over time. At least you don't have to worry about the darn thing sinking along the way.
Point being, if you had an 80 year old car, you wouldn't run it all day, everyday would you?
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 13:00:45 GMT -8
Lastly, a handful of anecdotal fondness does not constitute historical significance. Nobody in Port Townsend stepped up when offered the opportunity to meet the scrap value bid and purchase a Steel Electric. And why would they? I've stated before that the only portions of the original boats still in service were the middle two thirds of the hull, half the curtain plating, the drive motors, and the brass rails going up the stairs. Steve Rodriguez had the cash in hand to buy three of them to use as steel source for the Kalakala - - and the state turned him down. /rolls eyes.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 13:05:22 GMT -8
At the end of the day, at least you now have at least three brand new ferries to replace those vessels. No lives were lost in the process, and the safety of the people was the most important factor of it all. The KDT Ferries manage to get the traveling public from point A to point B which is all they're meant to do, and all that the general public really cares about. Yes, the design and propulsion could be better, but those are things that could and will be ironed out over time. At least you don't have to worry about the darn thing sinking along the way. Point being, if you had an 80 year old car, you wouldn't run it all day, everyday would you? WSF has never had a ferry sink in its entire history of operation. A few ferries have munched a dock a time or three but none have ever sank. Completely unfair comparison and I doubt the Steel Electrics were in that serious of a condition to worry about them taking on water. As far as an 80-year-old car? I was at a car show last weekend and several guys there had Ford Model Ts that they drove frequently. If I had an 80 year old car, I sure as hell wouldn't keep it in the garage all the time.
|
|
|
Post by rusty on Jun 8, 2013 13:53:27 GMT -8
They did have a design flaw in the sponson structure, and had a real potential for catastrophic hull failure; and being one compartment boats, they could of easily sunk in such a scenario.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Jun 8, 2013 16:39:05 GMT -8
Wow, I can't believe we're debating the practicalities of operating 80 year old ferries... Regardless of the fact that she was restored by a non-profit, she is still a very structurally sound vessel and was found to be free of leaks, although over time she'd had her fittings gutted. The fact that a 103-year-old vessel can be completely restored and kept seaworthy for so long stands as a sound rebuttal to anybody saying that the Steel Electrics couldn't have been in service until sound replacements could have been designed and built. And work is being done now on the S.S. Nomadic, to restore her to 100% functionality as she was back when Olympic and Titanic took their maiden voyages! Comparing the SS Nomadic, a vessel with some actual historical significance, to a state commuter ferry, is totally apples-to-oranges, I'm not sure how you don't see that... It also goes further to say that the state could have (and it would've been cheaper to do so), rehabilitate them for backup/ reserve status than it would be for new vessel construction. Case in point #1: It has been estimated and stated in various sources that in order to make the Kalakala's hull structurally sound and seaworthy for another 50 years, (read: virtually new steel plating from the keel to the car deck) it would cost roughly $13-15 million. Some portions of the hulls on all four Steel Electrics had been replaced throughout time, so it's an unfair assessment to say that the hulls in their entirety were in bad shape. That's far cheaper than the entire build cost of ONE KDT! It's always cheaper to rehabilitate. The reality is that rehabilitation is not a long term solution, whereas new vessel construction is. See the 1980 rebuild: If they had built new vessels instead, those vessels would be in service for another 20-30 years from today. Those KDTs were also a huge ripoff - no vessel of that size should cost that much. Case in point #2: I was also given a photo CD by a professional photographer who was hired by the state and by a local newspaper to photograph the decomissioning of the Steel Electrics and while the hulls had issues in some spots, other spots of the hulls looked structurally sound and totally within legal operating perameters. Keep in mind it was the state who yanked them - not the Coast Guard. I was given that CD for research purposes in developing my Flight Simulator ferries project. In those photos on that CD I received, is an entire gallery consisting of over 300 photos of the engine rooms of the Klickitat and of the Quinault alone. The engine rooms of both ferries were practically like-new in appearance when they were scrapped, which tells me that the engine room and operating components of the ferries were well maintained and in perfect working order when they were retired. I am glad to hear that you possess the necessary qualifications to make a structural engineering assessment. Or not.(Heads-up: the "well it looked good to me" argument has been played over and over and over again on this forum without much success) Also, in my research for a documentary I've been working on regarding WSF and the funding woes WSF has faced since I-695 was passed, I have interviewed dozens of Port Townsend residents who were angry at the state for the sudden and warrantless retirement of the Steel Electrics, including the Klickitat. Over six years has passed and Port Townsend still wears scars of that in the form of business storefronts standing vacant. 25% of Port Townsend's businesses closed when the S/E's were retired. Look, nobody's arguing that it was executed poorly - everybody knows that. What I and others are saying is that the state should have seen this coming for a long time, and should have planned ahead, instead of (refering to EGFleet's post now) 50 years of waivers of granting exceptions. And to say that the Klickitat doesn't hold historical significance to anyone outside this board is factually incorrect. Several residents of Port Townsend I've spoken to were quite fond of her. I am sure you could round up a few schmucks in the holding lot who would say the same of the Kennewick. WSF has never had a ferry sink in its entire history of operation. A few ferries have munched a dock a time or three but none have ever sank. Completely unfair comparison and I doubt the Steel Electrics were in that serious of a condition to worry about them taking on water. You "doubt" it - again, your incredible engineering analytical skills have served you well in this assessment. This is similar to saying "I have never been in an accident before", and therefore justifying your argument that nothing bad will ever happen to you while driving. As far as an 80-year-old car? I was at a car show last weekend and several guys there had Ford Model Ts that they drove frequently. If I had an 80 year old car, I sure as hell wouldn't keep it in the garage all the time. But you wouldn't use it as a practical vehicle, and that's the point Ferryman is trying to make. Owning a Model T for commuting/shopping/daily purposes is ridiculous and totally impractical.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 17:16:35 GMT -8
Are you a structural engineer?
Furthermore, are you a tax-paying Washington resident?
Finally, what gives you the qualifications to think your assessment is for intents better?
And I'm sorry, if I had a Model T and I were using it as a daily driver, your saying it's impractical is not a matter of factual logic but merely a manner of your own flawed opinion.
You're coming off as a bit condescending and somewhat of a know-it-all on these matters.
I don't profess to claim I am, but at least I don't make snide replies assuming one's "qualifications" for lack of a better term.
After all, I was in the business of owning and restoring vintage school buses and used them for transportation purposes and at one time owned a school bus museum, so I know a thing or two about structural analysis.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Jun 8, 2013 17:42:40 GMT -8
Are you a structural engineer? Furthermore, are you a tax-paying Washington resident? Finally, what gives you the qualifications to think your assessment is for intents better? And I'm sorry, if I had a Model T and I were using it as a daily driver, your saying it's impractical is not a matter of factual logic but merely a manner of your own flawed opinion. You're coming off as a bit condescending and somewhat of a know-it-all on these matters. I don't profess to claim I am, but at least I don't make snide replies assuming one's "qualifications" for lack of a better term. After all, I was in the business of owning and restoring vintage school buses and used them for transportation purposes and at one time owned a school bus museum, so I know a thing or two about structural analysis. You're right. I am not any of those things, and I don't claim to be (in fact, I even stated in my first post that I am not a taxpayer in Washington, and not a stakeholder besides an occasional user, even though I probably pay enough state sales tax annually to justify the maintenance of the Hiyu). When it comes to reviewing ferries, you and I are on the same level. I am holding your outlandish claims to the light of reality - the integrity of your posts lie heavily on your ability to analyze structural soundness through videos and pictures. None of us know ferries better than those who work on them, and you have seem to outright dismissed their analysis of the issues.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 18:50:44 GMT -8
Are you a structural engineer? Furthermore, are you a tax-paying Washington resident? Finally, what gives you the qualifications to think your assessment is for intents better? And I'm sorry, if I had a Model T and I were using it as a daily driver, your saying it's impractical is not a matter of factual logic but merely a manner of your own flawed opinion. You're coming off as a bit condescending and somewhat of a know-it-all on these matters. I don't profess to claim I am, but at least I don't make snide replies assuming one's "qualifications" for lack of a better term. After all, I was in the business of owning and restoring vintage school buses and used them for transportation purposes and at one time owned a school bus museum, so I know a thing or two about structural analysis. You're right. I am not any of those things, and I don't claim to be (in fact, I even stated in my first post that I am not a taxpayer in Washington, and not a stakeholder besides an occasional user, even though I probably pay enough state sales tax annually to justify the maintenance of the Hiyu). When it comes to reviewing ferries, you and I are on the same level. I am holding your outlandish claims to the light of reality - the integrity of your posts lie heavily on your ability to analyze structural soundness through videos and pictures. None of us know ferries better than those who work on them, and you have seem to outright dismissed their analysis of the issues. I'm not dismissing them, I'm just disagreeing with them. I've never been a dishonest person and I wouldn't make false claims about anything - ferry related or otherwise. I've spoken to quite a few people who have a distinct fondness to the Klickitat for the mere fact that she served on the Port Townsend/Keystone route for quite a considerable amount of time. Keep in mind also, in the field of structural/architectural engineering you may find one opinion or set of findings that will have one side disagreeing with the other. For example, in 1940 when the original Tacoma Narrows Bridge was built, there was a group of structural engineers that was convinced that the 8' stiffening girder that formed the road deck of the main suspension span was totally structurally sound and within all prescribed design tolerances - despite construction workers contracting seasickness as the deck neared completion. Yet other structural engineers disagreed. This was of course coming on the heels of the original design calling for a 25' Warren Truss open deck design, being relegated to garbage can fodder, in favor of the 8' girder that was finally chosen. In the case of these ferries, I am sure you will find a few people who would likely disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 8, 2013 19:27:39 GMT -8
And I'm sorry, if I had a Model T and I were using it as a daily driver, your saying it's impractical is not a matter of factual logic but merely a manner of your own flawed opinion. You're coming off as a bit condescending and somewhat of a know-it-all on these matters. I don't profess to claim I am, but at least I don't make snide replies assuming one's "qualifications" for lack of a better term. After all, I was in the business of owning and restoring vintage school buses and used them for transportation purposes and at one time owned a school bus museum, so I know a thing or two about structural analysis. Really? I would like to compare the life-cycle cost of a Model T against a new vehicle with high mileage. I am sure many people who own them for show and casually driving around would also say the same. If they were so practical for daily use, wouldn't you see more of them on the road and them being less of a collectors item? A school bus and a ferry are two totally different vehicles of transportation. Just because there has been patch jobs here and there does not mean 1927s structurally sound steel is still great after 80 years. When running under exemptions for decades, it does not make sense to keep them in operation along with how many millions of dollars per year would be required to keep them in running shape. All it would have taken is one incident in order to have the WSF PR scrambling and it hinged on the Steel Electrics staying afloat. Just because she looked in good shape if you walked through her, did you see her in the drydock? Did you have discussions with any structural engineers or shipyard workers about the shape of her hull? They would probably be the best ones to talk to to see if she was seaworthy. Evergreenfleet covered it fairly well in that while they can be made seaworthy, that should have only been utilized short term until proper replacements were ready. In response to the S.S. Nomadic, she was retired from active duty after 60 years of service. She was relocated to Paris 5 years later. The Steel Electrics were still in active service. Still a good vessel for floating around like a houseboat, but for active service? Probably not worth the costs.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 8, 2013 19:40:10 GMT -8
I have an extensive library of photos of the Klickitat, Quinault and Illahee in drydock. Somewhere close to a thousand. And they're fairly high resolution, in the order of 10mp or more.
On the Illahee, they were in the process of replating the Stern Tubes and portions of the hull at the time the stop order came down. One set of photos shows brand new stern tubes as well as relatively new steel in the critical areas near the propeller and rudders.
|
|
|
Post by rusty on Jun 8, 2013 20:51:14 GMT -8
So, an evening read from the Everett Herald. First article, this was the plan in 2006:
Published: Friday, August 4, 2006, 12:01 a.m. State planning four new ferries Some of the new vessels will carry passengers on the Mukilteo-Clinton route.
SEATTLE - The state ferry system is seeking proposals for construction of four new vessels for a total of about $321 million, with the first to be ready for service in the fall of 2009.
According to the formal request for design and construction proposals issued Wednesday, each new ferry would be able to carry 144 vehicles and 1,500 passengers, the same number of vehicles and 424 more passengers than the existing Super Class ferries.
"We are pleased to be moving forward," said Mike Anderson, the ferry system's executive director. "The new vessels are urgently needed."
The last new car-and-passenger ferry to go into service in the state fleet was in 1999.
Under state law the vessels must be built in Washington. Officials say three shipyards are technically and financially capable of building the boats - J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding of Tacoma, Nichols Brothers Boat Builders Inc. of Freeland and Todd Pacific Shipyards Corp. of Seattle.
Once the new boats are in service, officials plan to retire the much smaller Steel Electric ferries, the Klickitat, Illahee, Nisqually and Quinault, all built in 1927.
One of the new boats would replace the Kitsap on the Seattle-Bremerton run, boosting capacity, and the others would be split between the Mukilteo-Clinton and San Juan Islands routes. The Kitsap, an Issaquah-class ferry, can accommodate 124 vehicles and 1,200 passengers.
The new boats will be slightly faster, but not enough that any changes in schedules are anticipated, project manager David H. Humphreys told the Kitsap Sun.
Then this:
Published: Sunday, July 22, 2007, 9:46 a.m. Are old, rusting ferries still fit? By Scott North and Kaitlin Manry, Herald writers
Time and corrosion gnaw at the riveted steel hulls of the four oldest salt water ferries in the nation.
Washington State Ferries planners say they want to replace the boats, and have spent more than $80 million and six years trying to build replacements.
Still, they put their faith in the 80-year-old Klickitat, Quinault, Illahee and Nisqually to move people across chilly Puget Sound.
The four vessels have never met Coast Guard safety standards that have been in place for all ferries since the 1950s.
In the places passengers can't see, the ferries are falling apart.
Crews scraping paint off the Quinalt's hull early this month opened a quarter-inch- diameter hole below the waterline.
The Klickitat's hull developed a 6-inch crack in March.
As far back as 2000, tests found places where rust thinned the Klickitat's hull by up to 70 percent.
The ferries, the last of a type called Steel Electrics, have been springing leaks for years.
Why the state hasn't replaced the Steel Electrics is a complicated and often contentious tale with chapters touching on planning, politics, Northwest maritime history, the federal tax code - even allegations of racketeering.
State officials, from Gov. Chris Gregoire on down say they believe the boats are safe.
They point to the Coast Guard's continued willingness to allow the vessels to operate.
"The crews who maintain the Steel Electrics do so with loving care," state Transportation Secretary Doug MacDonald said. "They feel they have custody of some wonderful old piece of machinery."
How much longer love and care will keep the boats afloat is anyone's guess.
Washington State Ferries was ordered on June 26 by the Coast Guard to take immediate steps to correct the frequent leaks on the Steel Electrics.
The problems are "serious in nature" and reflect insufficient maintenance for vessels this old, the Coast Guard said.
The action came after four leaks on Steel Electrics this year, said Mike Anderson, executive director of the state ferry system.
He characterized the leaks as "small incidents," but acknowledged the problems are serious enough to require the state to spend $2 million meeting Coast Guard maintenance demands.
Getting to the bottom of whether the vessels are truly safe isn't easy.
Year after year, the Coast Guard has approved the Steel Electrics for operation on some of the busiest shipping lanes and roughest waters in the state.
But when it comes to safety, "there's no more guarantee than any other ship out there," said Lt. Cmdr Todd Howard, assistant chief of inspections for the Coast Guard in Seattle.
The Herald attempted to inspect the Coast Guard records that document the problems with leaks on the four ferries.
After months of being assured the Freedom of Information Act request was being processed, the Coast Guard this month said the request had somehow become lost.
Others also have had trouble trying to get answers about the ferries' safety, including State Auditor Brian Sonntag.
In 2004 Sonntag received a state whistle-blower complaint about ferry safety.
The auditor's probe was cut short by ferry officials who said they had "serious questions" about state auditors poking around vessels and exploring safety first-hand, records show.
State attorneys told Sonntag he was powerless to force cooperation, that the ferry system had the power to deny his office access to the vessel for independent inspection.
Sonntag considered writing a report criticizing the ferry system for operating vessels that don't meet current safety standards.
But he said he retreated when ferry officials produced Coast Guard waivers and assurances.
"You feel safe until all of a sudden you're not," Sonntag said. "People felt safe on the Titanic."
From the Roaring '20s
The Klickitat, Quinault, Illahee and Nisqually launched in 1927, the year Charles Lindbergh made the first solo flight across the Atlantic Ocean.
The boats were designed with technology prevalent just 15 years after the sinking of the Titanic. They had steel engines that drove electric propulsion systems, which gave them the name Steel Electrics.
Their job was to carry passengers, Model-Ts and horse-drawn carriages across San Francisco waterways.
They became surplus in the 1930s after the Golden Gate Bridge and other Bay Area spans opened.
In 1940, a private company running ferries across Puget Sound paid $300,000 for six of the San Francisco Steel Electrics.
Washington State Ferries inherited them when it took over the ferries in 1951.
Today the Steel Electrics are used in the San Juan Islands and on the Keystone-Port Townsend run. Last year, that run alone carried 767,000 people, including many tourists.
The state retired two Steel Electrics 40 years ago.
The old Enetai, now named Santa Rosa, is back on the San Francisco waterfront, permanently installed at Pier 3. It's rented out for parties, and its owner has offices there.
The other boat, once called the Willapa, is for sale in Stockton, Calif.
Dave Parker, a marine construction consultant, was paid more than $100,000 to take the ferry off the hands of its previous owner. He hopes somebody will turn the boat into a museum. If not, it is destined for scrap, he said.
Parker was surprised to learn that his ferry's sister ships are still carrying people through Washington waters.
"It's a miracle," he said.
Safety concerns
None of the state's remaining Steel Electrics meets federal safety requirements, in effect since the mid-1950s.
The rules require ferry hulls to be divided into multiple, water-tight spaces and to be able to remain afloat even if more than one of those compartments fills with water.
Vessels that don't meet the standard are at greater risk of sinking or capsizing.
Twenty-six years ago, as the Klickitat was undergoing major renovation, the Coast Guard inspector told the state to retrofit the boat to meet the higher watertight standards.
Ferry officials complained that the work would be prohibitively expensive.
The Coast Guard relented, and instead required the vessel to undergo stepped-up hull inspections.
The extra attention hasn't stopped deterioration.
Emergency repairs have sidelined the ferry 11 times since 1997. The crack found in the Klickitat's hull in March was just one of six breaches or holes discovered over the past 10 years, according to ferry system maintenance records.
When problems are found, the state replaces the aging steel hull plates. That's created "a bit of a patchwork quilt, if you will," out of the Steel Electrics' hulls, said Anderson, the ferry system chief, who has been working for the ferries for 34 years.
Age, not neglect, is the reason for the hull problems with the Klickitat and other Steel Electrics, ferries communications director Marta Coursey said.
"The reality is that these boats are old," she said.
So is much of the rest of the fleet.
More than a third of Washington's 28 ferries are at least 52 years old. In comparison, the oldest ferry in the BC Ferries system in neighboring Canada is 51. The average age of that 36-vessel fleet is 25.
Six years ago, state lawmakers voted to build four new ferries. The idea was pitched as an opportunity to retire the Steel Electrics.
Now, ferry officials are saying the Steel Electrics will stay in service for several more years.
That's because they are the only boats small enough, and agile enough, to maneuver in and out of old ferry terminals at Keystone on Whidbey Island and Port Townsend on the Olympic Peninsula.
The state plans to build four new 144-car ferries, more than twice the size of the old ones. Ferry officials say they may be able to retire two of the Steel Electrics sometime after 2009.
The ferry system plans to continue using the remaining two Steel Electrics indefinitely.
Progress 'so slow'
MacDonald became the state's transportation chief in April 2001 and is leaving at the end of this month.
He regrets the lack of progress in building new ferries. He'd hoped to have the first new ferry on the water by next year.
"One of my greatest disappointments in the last six years is that the progress has been so slow," he said.
During his tenure, the state spent about $15 million on ferry planning and design.
The state also spent $67 million buying four big diesel engines that it hopes will one day be installed in new ferries.
The move generated controversy, because the ferry system bought the new engines without having precise designs for new vessels. It didn't even have a contract with a shipbuilder.
The state's handling of the $348 million ferry construction contract drove one of the region's top shipbuilders to file a federal lawsuit accusing state officials, including MacDonald and Anderson, of civil racketeering.
The lawsuit was brought last fall by the J. M. Martinac Shipbuilding Corp. of Tacoma. In 2005, a judge ruled that the state at one point had unlawfully eliminated Martinac from the bidding.
The suit is pending even as state officials - at Gregoire's insistence - have been negotiating with Martinac to play a role in building new ferries.
The plan now calls for Todd Pacific Shipyards Corp. of Seattle to take the lead in building the ferries. Martinac and Whidbey Island's Nichols Brothers Boat Builders Inc. are to be the primary subcontractors.
The state hopes to see the first of the new boats by 2009.
Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Josh Reynolds said that in spite of leaks there is no reason to believe the Steel Electrics aren't up to the job.
"When we post that certificate of inspection on it, that's us saying they're safe," Reynolds said. "I firmly believe in our inspection program. We're making a difference. It's a lot better to prevent something than to have to respond to it."
Martinac executives figure they've spent a decade and $2.5 million trying to help build new ferries.
Yet the Coast Guard and ferry officials seem content to continue operating the deteriorating Steel Electrics, said Martinac attorney Jed Powell, of the Seattle law firm Cairncross and Hemplemann.
Talk that the vessels are safe sets Powell's teeth on edge.
"How can a Coast Guard commander say that with a straight face?" he asked. "The laws of safety are clear - and these boats, flat out, are not in compliance with U.S. rules and regulations for vessel safety."
His investigation since 1999 left him wondering why the state continues to use its oldest ferries on the route between Keystone and Port Townsend, a crossing exposed to rough winter storms and powerful swells from the Strait of Juan de Fuca.
The ferry system plans for potential catastrophes on that route by carrying enough rafts to evacuate every passenger. It also knows survivors likely would be on their own for hours, because the route is off the beaten path, Powell said.
Why wasn't the state as concerned as he became, Powell wondered. Then he came across the only answer that seemed to make sense.
The Steel Electrics aren't just ferries.
They are floating tax shelters - and the state has to keep them on the water until 2014, Powell said. By then the Steel Electrics will be 87 years old.
The obscure arrangement happened in the the 1980s, when the ferry system sold the depreciation value of the Steel Electrics to investors around the country seeking tax breaks.
The goal was to bring private investment to public transportation systems, and resulted in an immediate $8.2 million for the ferry system.
It works sort of like selling your family car to a wealthy neighbor. The neighbor needs a tax write-off, and pays you cash up front; you keep using the vehicle under a lease, Powell said.
The program requires the state to keep the Steel Electrics active in the fleet or face millions of dollars in penalties, Powell said. The tax shelter deal figures prominently in Martinac's lawsuit.
State officials angrily deny the lawsuit's assertions. The depreciation deal was done decades ago, before the system's current problems, and was part of a federally-approved program, state officials say.
Transportation Secretary MacDonald and others in state government say they are ready to defend themselves in court, yet remain hopeful the lawsuit will simply go away as Martinac negotiates for ferry work.
Herald writers Jim Haley and Jerry Cornfield contributed to this report.
Reporter Scott North: 425-339-3431 or north@heraldnet.com. Part 1 of 2 A look at the state's aging Steel Electric Ferries.
Today: Washington state relies on 80-year-old ferries on some routes, but are the vessels safe?
Monday: There are many theories why the state hasn't retired its oldest ferries -- and a lot of finger pointing.
Timeline
Here is a history of Washington State's Steel Electric class ferries:
1927: Steel Electric ferries are launched in San Francisco
1940: Six Steel Electrics come to Washington
1947: The Steel Electrics get new engines
1951: Washington State Ferries is established
Jan. 23, 1981: The Coast Guard allows the Klickitat and other Steel Electrics to continue operating without meeting federal safety standards. Over the next few years the state enters contracts with private investors, making the vessels floating tax shelters.
May 19, 2000: Ultrasound tests on the Klickitat reveal that, in places, 70 percent of the steel hull's thickness had wasted away.
Jan. 23, 2001: A bill is introduced in the state legislature to build four new ferries. In May, Gov. Gary Locke signs the bill into law.
Dec. 3, 2003: Washington State Ferries announces it will build 130-car ferries and invites boat builders to bid on the project. Lawmakers set aside nearly $348 million to pay for the boats.
May 27, 2004: The state auditor is denied access to the ferries as part of a "whistleblower" investigation.
Feb. 1, 2005: Washington State Ferries orders four new engines for ferries that haven't been built.
Feb. 11, 2005: The ferry service announces it has chosen Todd Pacific Shipyards of Seattle to build its new 130-car ferries. A judge four months later rules state officials had improperly ruled out J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding of Tacoma as a potential builder.
Aug. 2, 2006: Washington State Ferries scraps the plan to build 130-car ferries, and instead invites boat builders to bid on 144-car ferries.
Oct. 23, 2006: Martinac files a federal lawsuit alleging civil racketeering among state officials managing the new ferries program.
March 12, 2007: A 6-inch crack in the hull of the Klickitat sidelines the ferry for 2.5 days.
June 26, 2007: The Coast Guard demands increased maintenance and safety inspections for the Steel Electrics.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,196
|
Post by Neil on Jun 8, 2013 22:14:35 GMT -8
I think that the posts that actually rely on engineering analyses of these vessels point out the good sense of retiring them- perhaps well before they actually were.
Northern Europe sets the standards for modern ferry safety standards, and there, the wisdom of transporting people and vehicles on eighty year old hulls would not even be a subject for discussion.
Sometimes, people who smoke three packs a days don't end up with lung cancer. Doesn't mean it's a good idea. The Nomadic has little relevance to this debate.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Jun 9, 2013 5:35:16 GMT -8
Lastly, a handful of anecdotal fondness does not constitute historical significance. Nobody in Port Townsend stepped up when offered the opportunity to meet the scrap value bid and purchase a Steel Electric. And why would they? I've stated before that the only portions of the original boats still in service were the middle two thirds of the hull, half the curtain plating, the drive motors, and the brass rails going up the stairs. Steve Rodriguez had the cash in hand to buy three of them to use as steel source for the Kalakala - - and the state turned him down. /rolls eyes. Horsefeathers. He'd have paid his moorage fees if he'd had that kind of money. He wanted them given to him.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Jun 9, 2013 5:40:20 GMT -8
I have an extensive library of photos of the Klickitat, Quinault and Illahee in drydock. Somewhere close to a thousand. And they're fairly high resolution, in the order of 10mp or more. On the Illahee, they were in the process of replating the Stern Tubes and portions of the hull at the time the stop order came down. One set of photos shows brand new stern tubes as well as relatively new steel in the critical areas near the propeller and rudders. I have photos of a cheeseburger. That doesn't tell you what it tastes like.
|
|