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Post by compdude787 on Jun 9, 2013 10:08:23 GMT -8
I'm glad I stayed out of this whole debate by going out of town. But in my opinion, it is truly amazing that the Klickitat is still in service, but it still doesn't really make it fit for service here. They hadn't met USCG requirements since the 1950s! Remember that I was just re-stating what was written on the Evergreenfleet website, and that's not necessarily my opinion. But it sparked an intense debate...
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Post by compdude787 on Jun 9, 2013 10:13:44 GMT -8
compdude787: It is also ridiculous to think that just because a vessel is cleared to operate in a third-world country, it is therefore safe to operate. Not a chance. I am not sure what you are hearing, but word on the street (and on the Associated Press) is that thousands of people die every year from inadequate safety precautions and poor operating/vessel conditions. If you don't believe me, I invite you to have a scroll through our International Ferries section of this very forum to see for yourself... Okay. I understand. You don't need to keep pointing this out to me. If I was to go down to Venezuela and ride this ferry, it would actually be a bit sketchy and I would not feel very safe!
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Post by EGfleet on Jun 9, 2013 10:31:22 GMT -8
I'm glad I stayed out of this whole debate by going out of town. But in my opinion, it is truly amazing that the Klickitat is still in service, but it still doesn't really make it fit for service here. They hadn't met USCG requirements since the 1950s! Remember that I was just re-stating what was written on the Evergreenfleet website, and that's not necessarily my opinion. But it sparked an intense debate... Remember though, I didn't say it was the Klickitat. I said if it was the Klickitat. It looks an awful lot like the Klick, but I'm not going to declare it as such until I have a lot more proof. I've done a lot of hunting and, so far, this is the only photo I've seen that is purportedly the Klickitat. It strikes me as very odd that after what? Nearly five years since leaving Puget Sound this is the only photo that turns up? It seems that by now another would have turned up somewhere. I've hunted the Klickitat's hull number down as well... and nothing comes up post 2007. Like I say, I was merely hoping that someone somewhere might have another photo or something to send me--either of the ferry still in service in South America somewhere, or being cut up in Ensenada.
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Post by compdude787 on Jun 9, 2013 10:45:49 GMT -8
EGfleet: Yeah, the photo's not good enough to tell whether it is the Klickitat. (you can't see the nameplate) Could there be any possibility that someone else built a ferry that is not the Klick but has the exact same exterior design?
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Post by rusty on Jun 9, 2013 11:41:23 GMT -8
Though fuzzy, that photo sure looks to be the Klickitat. What isn't really verified is the time and place of the photo. There was a rumor circulating at WSF's Eagle Harbor facility that once they got the two boat tow into open ocean they cut the Klick loose and ran here on her own power, a rumor that didn't really didn't make sense to me, but a lot of us want to believe she is still chugging away somewhere.
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Post by chokai on Jun 9, 2013 15:31:35 GMT -8
Though fuzzy, that photo sure looks to be the Klickitat. What isn't really verified is the time and place of the photo. There was a rumor circulating at WSF's Eagle Harbor facility that once they got the two boat tow into open ocean they cut the Klick loose and ran here on her own power, a rumor that didn't really didn't make sense to me, but a lot of us want to believe she is still chugging away somewhere. You are correct Rusty. Evergreenfleet do you have the original picture or did it come to you edited/photoshopped? If you do have the original we can potentially have a looksee at the EXIF and other data for that file to get a lead on shoot date etc... Since it was shot on a phone this could help a great deal as some cell phones like the iPhone even GPS tag the picture's location if the person has it turned on. I'd ask the person who provided it for either the original or an explanation of why they lack the original if ya didn't already.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Jun 9, 2013 19:12:39 GMT -8
Here's a beautiful scene of ferries in action on San Francisco Bay in the 1930s: In this scene, we see the EUREKA, CAZADERO, and SANTA ROSA nearing Sausalito while the MENDOCINO charted her course to Hyde Street, San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge had yet to get its deck. If this photo was taken during a weekend, the EUREKA would be emptied of the benches on her Main Deck and she would be ferrying cars on the Hyde Street to Sausalito run, helping out her Steel-Electric colleagues et al. During the week, she had benches on her Main Deck and worked on the passenger-only run from the Ferry Building to Marin County. This dual Steel-Electric scene would be duplicated later on Puget Sound on these routes: The San Juans Port Townsend - Keystone Mukilteo - Columbia Beach Routes out of Edmonds Routes out of Seattle North Vashon Island As for the KLICKITAT, if EF's photo description is correct, this may be as close she would get to Brazil. A Brazilian firm had a bid on the Steel-Electrics. Black Ball won the bidding and all six came to Puget Sound and served well here until their retirement. I'm very lucky to have taken rides aboard these in their old wooden cabin configs. I sure miss them!
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 9, 2013 22:18:23 GMT -8
I have an extensive library of photos of the Klickitat, Quinault and Illahee in drydock. Somewhere close to a thousand. And they're fairly high resolution, in the order of 10mp or more. On the Illahee, they were in the process of replating the Stern Tubes and portions of the hull at the time the stop order came down. One set of photos shows brand new stern tubes as well as relatively new steel in the critical areas near the propeller and rudders. I have photos of a cheeseburger. That doesn't tell you what it tastes like. That's good you do, even then it won't sway my opinion. I have to say I am more than frankly appalled at the display of a few members' actions here in re: my opinion of the Steel Electric debacle and the structural soundness of them. This is first and foremost a web forum in which members are *entitled* to have their own opinions and not be totally lambasted for those opinions, which has happened here. Last I checked, I wasn't expected to conform to a moral majority or hold opinions that of which are the same or similar to others. You'll note in any one of my posts I am not implying that they be in service still - although truth be told, let's face reality. If the Klickitat is indeed alive and well, and the photo that Mr. Pickens has posted on his website is indeed a recent photograph taken within the last few months - then I stand firm in my belief that it is entirely possible and totally within reason that they could be in service to this day as a backup vessel in extreme cases of emergency - and at the very least kept in service until properly designed and funded vessels were built. And I also stand firm in my belief that the state was not acting in the best interests of those serviced by the ferry routes in question which were severely impacted by their sudden retirement - by suddenly yanking them out of service leaving one of the north sound's most popular runs itself without a reasonable ferry for close to two years. In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims. To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007. If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. I also lay waste to any claim that the Steel Electrics weren't 'historically significant', etc. They were -- for the better part of their entire service lives wearing Ice Blue White and Evergreen Green -- the icons of the ferry fleet. To this day, Washington State Ferries even uses a caricature silouhette of one of them in its official business logo. They have been for the better part of thirty decades the most prominent class of ferry sold on Washington State postcards. Quite a few residents of Port Townsend are still fond of the Klickitat and of the entire class, and most feel the state screwed them over royally when the ferry system yanked them unceremoniously from service. My dealings with structural analysis comes from decades of study on structural engineering and shipbuilding, and my being a ferry fan has that in mind. I'm not just a guy off the street here. I have written encyclopedia entries on topics ranging from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to school buses and have contributed to the article on Wikipedia of the RMS Titanic. Not only was I a contributor, but I was also a twelve-year-member of the Titanic Historical Society and I have studied the effects the sinking had on the shipbuilding industry - effects we are still seeing today. Not only that, I have been a freelance contributor to KOMO News for well over a decade. I take grave offense when people sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - and that my opinions are outlandish. I take integrity very seriously.
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Post by Mike C on Jun 9, 2013 22:38:17 GMT -8
I have photos of a cheeseburger. That doesn't tell you what it tastes like. That's good you do, even then it won't sway my opinion. I have to say I am more than frankly appalled at the display of a few members' actions here in re: my opinion of the Steel Electric debacle and the structural soundness of them. This is first and foremost a web forum in which members are *entitled* to have their own opinions and not be totally lambasted for those opinions, which has happened here. Last I checked, I wasn't expected to conform to a moral majority or hold opinions that of which are the same or similar to others. You'll note in any one of my posts I am not implying that they be in service still - although truth be told, let's face reality. If the Klickitat is indeed alive and well, and the photo that Mr. Pickens has posted on his website is indeed a recent photograph taken within the last few months - then I stand firm in my belief that it is entirely possible and totally within reason that they could be in service to this day as a backup vessel in extreme cases of emergency - and at the very least kept in service until properly designed and funded vessels were built. And I also stand firm in my belief that the state was not acting in the best interests of those serviced by the ferry routes in question which were severely impacted by their sudden retirement - by suddenly yanking them out of service leaving one of the north sound's most popular runs itself without a reasonable ferry for close to two years. In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims.  To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007.  If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. I also lay waste to any claim that the Steel Electrics weren't 'historically significant', etc. They were  -- for the better part of their entire service lives wearing Ice Blue White and Evergreen Green -- the icons of the ferry fleet. To this day, Washington State Ferries even uses a caricature silouhette of one of them in its official business logo. They have been for the better part of thirty decades the most prominent class of ferry sold on Washington State postcards. Quite a few residents of Port Townsend are still fond of the Klickitat and of the entire class, and most feel the state screwed them over royally when the ferry system yanked them unceremoniously from service. My dealings with structural analysis comes from decades of study on structural engineering and shipbuilding, and my being a ferry fan has that in mind. I'm not just a guy off the street here. I have written encyclopedia entries on topics ranging from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to school buses and have contributed to the article on Wikipedia of the RMS Titanic. Not only was I a contributor, but I was also a twelve-year-member of the Titanic Historical Society and I have studied the effects the sinking had on the shipbuilding industry - effects we are still seeing today. Not only that, I have been a freelance contributor to KOMO News for well over a decade. I take grave offense when people sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - and that my opinions are outlandish. I take integrity very seriously. I think that if you take disagreement this harshly, perhaps an Internet discussion forum is not for you. Look, nobody called you a liar, we just don't see eye-to-eye. If this is going to be your reaction when someone disagrees with you, I think it is time for you to reconsider your participation here. Please give this some thought.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 9, 2013 22:52:20 GMT -8
I have photos of a cheeseburger. That doesn't tell you what it tastes like. That's good you do, even then it won't sway my opinion. I have to say I am more than frankly appalled at the display of a few members' actions here in re: my opinion of the Steel Electric debacle and the structural soundness of them. This is first and foremost a web forum in which members are *entitled* to have their own opinions and not be totally lambasted for those opinions, which has happened here. Last I checked, I wasn't expected to conform to a moral majority or hold opinions that of which are the same or similar to others. You'll note in any one of my posts I am not implying that they be in service still - although truth be told, let's face reality. If the Klickitat is indeed alive and well, and the photo that Mr. Pickens has posted on his website is indeed a recent photograph taken within the last few months - then I stand firm in my belief that it is entirely possible and totally within reason that they could be in service to this day as a backup vessel in extreme cases of emergency - and at the very least kept in service until properly designed and funded vessels were built. And I also stand firm in my belief that the state was not acting in the best interests of those serviced by the ferry routes in question which were severely impacted by their sudden retirement - by suddenly yanking them out of service leaving one of the north sound's most popular runs itself without a reasonable ferry for close to two years. In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims. To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007. If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. I also lay waste to any claim that the Steel Electrics weren't 'historically significant', etc. They were -- for the better part of their entire service lives wearing Ice Blue White and Evergreen Green -- the icons of the ferry fleet. To this day, Washington State Ferries even uses a caricature silouhette of one of them in its official business logo. They have been for the better part of thirty decades the most prominent class of ferry sold on Washington State postcards. Quite a few residents of Port Townsend are still fond of the Klickitat and of the entire class, and most feel the state screwed them over royally when the ferry system yanked them unceremoniously from service. My dealings with structural analysis comes from decades of study on structural engineering and shipbuilding, and my being a ferry fan has that in mind. I'm not just a guy off the street here. I have written encyclopedia entries on topics ranging from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to school buses and have contributed to the article on Wikipedia of the RMS Titanic. Not only was I a contributor, but I was also a twelve-year-member of the Titanic Historical Society and I have studied the effects the sinking had on the shipbuilding industry - effects we are still seeing today. Not only that, I have been a freelance contributor to KOMO News for well over a decade. I take grave offense when people sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - and that my opinions are outlandish. I take integrity very seriously. I decided to take a check back into the archives. ferriesbc.proboards.com/thread/6418/steel-electrics-pulled-service If you take a look back in the individual vessel threads here are a few facts. -They did not meet safety standards for 50 years -http://ferriesbc.proboards.com/thread/6385/mv-nisqually?page=10 In this thread SS San Mateo quoted the following "The Coast Guard also took the unprecedented step of ordering ferry officials to inspect the Nisqually every four hours to make sure everything works properly, said Lt. Cdr. Todd Howard, chief of domestic vessel inspection for the Coast Guard in Seattle . "We're not asking them. We're telling them," he said. "If they want to maintain the Nisqually on that route, they have to do this. That's what it comes down to." The Coast Guard also plans to conduct weekly internal structural exams to try to make sure that the ferry is safe. The Coast Guard usually conducts that type of exam every 2 years on state ferries, Howard said." To say the Nisqually was in great shape would not have made sense based off this fact they had to inspect her every 4 hours and that is a requirement by the USCG. That is why I believe some of us question your opinion as I see it and others see it as that we could still be running these vessels today. While that may have been possible, it would have required a lot of work at the tune of millions of dollars where it got to the time of when is it time to cut your losses and obtain new vessels? Also when you rip off the hull parts, you never know what you are going to find. Did these photographs contain parts of the hull being ripped off while they were in drydock back in 2007? Based off some of the news article photos, the hulls did not look in great shape and they did not sound that way either. If we go back to Page 2 "They now acknowledge finding two dozen more cracks in the aging steel than they told lawmakers about. Corrosion of hull plates also is more widespread than reported, and severe enough that more unplanned repairs appear likely for two of the vessels, the Quinault and Klickitat, ferry officials said. Some information about the Steel Electrics' problems was purposely omitted from the report to lawmakers, state officials said in interviews. Other troubles have been discovered recently as part of ongoing work to bring the vessels into compliance with Coast Guard orders for stepped up inspection and maintenance." The writing was on the wall, the question was not a matter of if it was a matter of when. We can agree on the following -They needed to be taken out of active service -They should have had adequate replacements and terminals before they were taken out of service -The manner in which it was gone about was not the best way -There was a negative impact on the economies on both sides What will probably not be agreed on -Was it worth saving them for a museum or other use? -Historical value They do have a history given 80 years and being the workhorses of the fleet. The rest I leave up to the others.
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Post by EGfleet on Jun 10, 2013 6:11:00 GMT -8
Though fuzzy, that photo sure looks to be the Klickitat. What isn't really verified is the time and place of the photo. There was a rumor circulating at WSF's Eagle Harbor facility that once they got the two boat tow into open ocean they cut the Klick loose and ran here on her own power, a rumor that didn't really didn't make sense to me, but a lot of us want to believe she is still chugging away somewhere. You are correct Rusty. Evergreenfleet do you have the original picture or did it come to you edited/photoshopped? If you do have the original we can potentially have a looksee at the EXIF and other data for that file to get a lead on shoot date etc... Since it was shot on a phone this could help a great deal as some cell phones like the iPhone even GPS tag the picture's location if the person has it turned on. I'd ask the person who provided it for either the original or an explanation of why they lack the original if ya didn't already. It was taken in May of 2012. I looked at the photo and there isn't any EXIF info on it. Like I say, I'm not at all convinced of its authenticity. The person who sent it to me had it sent to him from a friend whom he considered trustworthy. However, five minutes in Photoshop and I was able to create a fairly convincing duplicate. One of the big reasons I've got grave doubts is that these days with everyone have cameras on them all the time, another photo should have turned up by now and nothing has.
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 10, 2013 6:34:17 GMT -8
In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims. To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007. If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. You were arguing from the standpoint of photos of the interior of the engine room "appearing to be in like-new condition" were evidence that the hull plates weren't as wasted as claimed, when if you have studied this as much as you claim to have done, you know the majority of wastage would be on the exterior of the hull, most prominently at the waterline where the electrolysis seems to take hold. I'm not questioning your integrity, nor that of the photographer; merely indicating that you weren't properly supporting your claims. Appearances can be deceiving; in a photograph, a fresh coat of paint hides a lot. Given the enormous amount of embarrassment WSF suffered over this debacle, I would suspect that the wastage was EXACTLY as bad as reported. If it weren't, the whole thing would've quietly gone away and the boats would still be here. The WSF corporate logo depicts a Steel-Electric, yes, the last of which disappeared in 1987. The wooden houses which are the basis of your historical significance claims were gone twenty years before the boats were removed from service. I also refute your claims that the S/Es were the primary vessels photographed for thirty years [though thirty decades would be REALLY impressive]; from what I've been able to find, postcards tend toward the vessels readily visible in Elliott Bay. After 1967, the postcards I've seen tended heavily toward Supers and Jumbos (and later, Issaquahs). Again, fondness does not automatically make for historical significance.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Jun 10, 2013 7:54:28 GMT -8
I have photos of a cheeseburger. That doesn't tell you what it tastes like. That's good you do, even then it won't sway my opinion. I have to say I am more than frankly appalled at the display of a few members' actions here in re: my opinion of the Steel Electric debacle and the structural soundness of them. This is first and foremost a web forum in which members are *entitled* to have their own opinions and not be totally lambasted for those opinions, which has happened here. Last I checked, I wasn't expected to conform to a moral majority or hold opinions that of which are the same or similar to others. In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims. To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007. If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. My dealings with structural analysis comes from decades of study on structural engineering and shipbuilding, and my being a ferry fan has that in mind. I'm not just a guy off the street here. I have written encyclopedia entries on topics ranging from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to school buses and have contributed to the article on Wikipedia of the RMS Titanic. Not only was I a contributor, but I was also a twelve-year-member of the Titanic Historical Society and I have studied the effects the sinking had on the shipbuilding industry - effects we are still seeing today. Not only that, I have been a freelance contributor to KOMO News for well over a decade. I take grave offense when people sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - and that my opinions are outlandish. I take integrity very seriously. OK I was staying out of this until now. Your comment about integrity sparked something. You claim to have integrity. I have yet to meet an educated engineer (bear in mind I DO work in engineering) of any type able to make a certain claim as to whether a piece of steel is structurally sound or not based on a photograph. The fact that you seem to possess a superman-like power of seeing through paint and able to see the thickness of steel plate from a photograph tells me you truly don't have a clue what you're talking about. NO structural engineer would say that. There, I said it, take offense to that. Testing of steel involves many processes that require specialized equipment. Ultrasonic testing, magnetic particle, radiography, and liquid penetrant are just a few methods of determining the quality of steel. Even in a shipyard producing NEW ships, steel is tested using ultrasonic and magnetic resonance techniques to determine whether it is structurally sound. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. What we are saying is that your opinion is based on entirely false fact. You say you wrote encyclopedia articles. I'm sorry... everybody can write wikipedia articles. That does not mean they are correct.
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Post by rusty on Jun 10, 2013 8:33:28 GMT -8
Arguing about corrosion is pointless, as I believe that the corrosion issue was a straw man (and that, by the time the State pulled the plug the Quinault hull had pretty much been renewed.) The time line of the Steel Electrics demise was the crack on the Klickitat in March of '07, which led to the USCG order to remove all concrete from the bilges (a process which precipitated that failure of the corroded stern tube of the Illahee.) The State had also commissioned an inspection of all hulls by a company named International Inspection. This inspection revealed that all vessels had numerous cracked ribs where the sponson structure met the original hull.
As the history of the numerous hull cracks, at least on the Klickitat, were at the seam between the sponson plate and hull plate, and that the bracing that tied the sponson plate to the deck were in a mode of continuous failure, it is safe to say that there was a serious design defect with these hulls, and that is the reason the State scrapped the Steels.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 10, 2013 10:11:52 GMT -8
That's good you do, even then it won't sway my opinion. I have to say I am more than frankly appalled at the display of a few members' actions here in re: my opinion of the Steel Electric debacle and the structural soundness of them. This is first and foremost a web forum in which members are *entitled* to have their own opinions and not be totally lambasted for those opinions, which has happened here. Last I checked, I wasn't expected to conform to a moral majority or hold opinions that of which are the same or similar to others. In regards to the photo library I received - taken during a two year span from 2006 until late 2008, I wouldn't make any false claims. To even draw my claims into question is bogus. I have prided myself on being totally honest and when I have an opinion on something, I don't just form an opinion first without having any of the facts present. Yes, I understand that the USCG has given the WSDOT waivers on them since the '50s, and yes, I understand that they were old boats, but that doesn't change the facts. Those photos were taken by a professional photographer with over 35 years' experience and whose works have appeared in over a dozen publications - most of them being newspapers on the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula. They weren't taken lightly, and were part of an extensive documentation process that started when the Quinault was in dry dock having new stern tubes installed in August, 2007. If I could, I would post a few here to prove my point, but I was granted a strict usage license with them which forbids me from 'rebroadcasting' them over the internet. My dealings with structural analysis comes from decades of study on structural engineering and shipbuilding, and my being a ferry fan has that in mind. I'm not just a guy off the street here. I have written encyclopedia entries on topics ranging from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to school buses and have contributed to the article on Wikipedia of the RMS Titanic. Not only was I a contributor, but I was also a twelve-year-member of the Titanic Historical Society and I have studied the effects the sinking had on the shipbuilding industry - effects we are still seeing today. Not only that, I have been a freelance contributor to KOMO News for well over a decade. I take grave offense when people sit there and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about - and that my opinions are outlandish. I take integrity very seriously. OK I was staying out of this until now. Your comment about integrity sparked something. You claim to have integrity. I have yet to meet an educated engineer (bear in mind I DO work in engineering) of any type able to make a certain claim as to whether a piece of steel is structurally sound or not based on a photograph. The fact that you seem to possess a superman-like power of seeing through paint and able to see the thickness of steel plate from a photograph tells me you truly don't have a clue what you're talking about. NO structural engineer would say that. There, I said it, take offense to that. Testing of steel involves many processes that require specialized equipment. Ultrasonic testing, magnetic particle, radiography, and liquid penetrant are just a few methods of determining the quality of steel. Even in a shipyard producing NEW ships, steel is tested using ultrasonic and magnetic resonance techniques to determine whether it is structurally sound. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. What we are saying is that your opinion is based on entirely false fact. You say you wrote encyclopedia articles. I'm sorry... everybody can write wikipedia articles. That does not mean they are correct. False. Wikipedia has a strict policy of verifiability and if any material is added that isn't cited with accurate references, it is removed. That's is irrefutable. Furthermore, you lose that argument anyways, because six major university studies - most notably a study by Harvard - has concluded Wikipedia has more general reliability by a wide margin over Encyclopaedia Britannica, and the accuracy of most articles on Wikipedia is anywhere between five to ten times more accurate than a printed encyclopedia due to the fact material and information in this day and age changes on the fly.
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Post by rusty on Jun 10, 2013 10:31:54 GMT -8
Steve, what do you think of my claim that the sponson structure was in failure on the Steel Electrics, as per the International Inspection report, and that was the real reason WSDOT scrapped the boats.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jun 10, 2013 10:46:32 GMT -8
Steve, what do you think of my claim that the sponson structure was in failure on the Steel Electrics, as per the International Inspection report, and that was the real reason WSDOT scrapped the boats. Highly likely, although I have photos of the sponson structure of the Illahee and looking through the photos, there appears to be no cracks. It's unfortunate I don't have photos of all of them.
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Post by rusty on Jun 10, 2013 10:53:21 GMT -8
You wouldn't see the cracked ribs by casually looking, or in regular photos. The reason why the inspectors from International Inspection found all those cracked ribs is that they knew where to look, and they used very bright handheld lights in their inspection of the hull structure.
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Post by Ferryman on Jun 10, 2013 11:00:56 GMT -8
Steve, what do you think of my claim that the sponson structure was in failure on the Steel Electrics, as per the International Inspection report, and that was the real reason WSDOT scrapped the boats. Highly likely, although I have photos of the sponson structure of the Illahee and looking through the photos, there appears to be no cracks. It's unfortunate I don't have photos of all of them. Clearly, now the discussion has opened up to more people who are in the know. This post has made me laugh out loud and I will now cease all debate from my end.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,189
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Post by Neil on Jun 10, 2013 11:53:55 GMT -8
Wikipedia has a strict policy of verifiability and if any material is added that isn't cited with accurate references, it is removed. That's is irrefutable. Furthermore, you lose that argument anyways, because six major university studies - most notably a study by Harvard - has concluded Wikipedia has more general reliability by a wide margin over Encyclopaedia Britannica, and the accuracy of most articles on Wikipedia is anywhere between five to ten times more accurate than a printed encyclopedia due to the fact material and information in this day and age changes on the fly. Since you mentioned Harvard, here's what Harvard College had to say about Wikipedia in a guidance piece for students on using sources: Four years ago, an Expos student who was writing a paper about the limitations of Wikipedia posted a fictional entry for himself, stating that he was the mayor of a small town in China. Four years later, if you type in his name, or if you do a subject search on Wikipedia for mayors of towns in China, you will still find this fictional entry.) Some information on Wikipedia may well be accurate, but because experts do not review the site's entries, there is a considerable risk in relying on this source for your essays.
The fact that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic research doesn't mean that it's wrong to use basic reference materials when you're trying to familiarize yourself with a topic.
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Anyone who is a regular user of Wikipedia knows that there are a multitude of articles that cite few if any sources. Yes, Wikipedia often notes with a warning that uncited material may be removed... but it's still there. I would not want to travel on vessels where the structural integrity was determined by people looking at photographs. Even if the photographs were taken by Ansell Adams. I'll listen to the engineers and the people who are properly trained in structural and metallurgical analysis instead.
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Post by compdude787 on Jun 10, 2013 12:44:59 GMT -8
Wikipedia has a strict policy of verifiability and if any material is added that isn't cited with accurate references, it is removed. That's is irrefutable. Furthermore, you lose that argument anyways, because six major university studies - most notably a study by Harvard - has concluded Wikipedia has more general reliability by a wide margin over Encyclopaedia Britannica, and the accuracy of most articles on Wikipedia is anywhere between five to ten times more accurate than a printed encyclopedia due to the fact material and information in this day and age changes on the fly. Since you mentioned Harvard, here's what Harvard College had to say about Wikipedia in a guidance piece for students on using sources: Four years ago, an Expos student who was writing a paper about the limitations of Wikipedia posted a fictional entry for himself, stating that he was the mayor of a small town in China. Four years later, if you type in his name, or if you do a subject search on Wikipedia for mayors of towns in China, you will still find this fictional entry.) Some information on Wikipedia may well be accurate, but because experts do not review the site's entries, there is a considerable risk in relying on this source for your essays.
The fact that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic research doesn't mean that it's wrong to use basic reference materials when you're trying to familiarize yourself with a topic.
--------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who is a regular user of Wikipedia knows that there are a multitude of articles that cite few if any sources. Yes, Wikipedia often notes with a warning that uncited material may be removed... but it's still there. I would not want to travel on vessels where the structural integrity was determined by people looking at photographs. Even if the photographs were taken by Ansell Adams. I'll listen to the engineers and the people who are properly trained in structural and metallurgical analysis instead. Oh yeah, and Wikipedia's articles about BCFerries' ships have completely wrong info, too. That is, until I fixed them.
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Post by chokai on Jun 10, 2013 13:57:45 GMT -8
It was taken in May of 2012. I looked at the photo and there isn't any EXIF info on it. Like I say, I'm not at all convinced of its authenticity. The person who sent it to me had it sent to him from a friend whom he considered trustworthy. However, five minutes in Photoshop and I was able to create a fairly convincing duplicate. One of the big reasons I've got grave doubts is that these days with everyone have cameras on them all the time, another photo should have turned up by now and nothing has. Yeah your concerns are well founded and perhaps even understated, few modern digital camera's do not write EXIF data. It's abscense is a direct indication that the photograph you recieved had been altered, copied and or photoshopped prior to you getting it. If anyone is really bored the latest Google earth data for Venezuela was shot in late 2012/2013 if I am reading things correctly. So happy hunting. :-)
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Post by EGfleet on Jun 10, 2013 14:34:46 GMT -8
It was taken in May of 2012. I looked at the photo and there isn't any EXIF info on it. Like I say, I'm not at all convinced of its authenticity. The person who sent it to me had it sent to him from a friend whom he considered trustworthy. However, five minutes in Photoshop and I was able to create a fairly convincing duplicate. One of the big reasons I've got grave doubts is that these days with everyone have cameras on them all the time, another photo should have turned up by now and nothing has. Yeah your concerns are well founded and perhaps even understated, few modern digital camera's do not write EXIF data. It's abscense is a direct indication that the photograph you recieved had been altered, copied and or photoshopped prior to you getting it. If anyone is really bored the latest Google earth data for Venezuela was shot in late 2012/2013 if I am reading things correctly. So happy hunting. :-) I ran it through some filters in Photoshop. I'm now convinced the photo is a fake. I should have done a little more critical work on it when I got it, but as it came from a trusted source, I took it a bit on faith. It appears as if the horizon line showing open ocean has been cloned in.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Jun 10, 2013 14:53:59 GMT -8
Yeah your concerns are well founded and perhaps even understated, few modern digital camera's do not write EXIF data. It's abscense is a direct indication that the photograph you recieved had been altered, copied and or photoshopped prior to you getting it. If anyone is really bored the latest Google earth data for Venezuela was shot in late 2012/2013 if I am reading things correctly. So happy hunting. :-) I ran it through some filters in Photoshop. I'm now convinced the photo is a fake. I should have done a little more critical work on it when I got it, but as it came from a trusted source, I took it a bit on faith. It appears as if the horizon line showing open ocean has been cloned in. I've looked at Google Earth this weekend as well as Internet photo search with no sightings of the ferry (except the ones taken here on our waters). I guess we'll find out where the KLICKITAT went, one way or another, in the near or distant future.
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Post by rusty on Jun 10, 2013 16:43:03 GMT -8
What we need now is someone to photoshop the Klickitat being scrapped so we can finally put an end to the myth that she was spared from the cutting torch.
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