|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 16, 2007 11:19:42 GMT -8
Ok, so now that the Steel Electrics have gotten the axe from the fleet unfortunately (even though it was time). Any idea as to what exactly will happen now with them? Seeming they've already ripped the hull of the Quinault and Illahee all apart...will they just continue to tear it apart to scrap them? Or will they be put back together enough to be able to float somewhat to be hauled off to a third world Country to be scrapped? I suspect they'll patch them up enough to float so they can be moved over to Eagle Harbor. They can't stay at Todd--Todd needs the drydock space. Paula Hammond said in one of the articles that no decision had been made yet as to what to do with them. WSF may, for the first time in its history, actually end up selling a vessel for scrap. The fellow who purchased the old Willapa a few months back figured it would bring in $400K in scrap value, and she still has her wooden cabin and car deck...given that the Steel Electrics were converted to all steel back in the 80's (the car deck in the 50's, actually) they should bring in more than that in scrap value alone.
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 16, 2007 11:22:56 GMT -8
Take a look and let me know what you think. for those who want to take a look: the website address is: www.evergreenfleet.com(the man himself might want to add his website address to his signature....just a suggestion re publicity.... Whoops. Silly me, I forgot that little detail. ;D So noted and added to my signature. In addition I've created a page on the current fleet for the new Keystone ferries...
|
|
|
Post by Ferry Fanatic on Dec 16, 2007 11:26:50 GMT -8
Evergreen Fleet: I saw your update last night on the Steel Electrics and thought you did a great job! I enjoyed seeing all the old pictures of each boat. I also thought it was good that you gave each boat a section instead of the whole class, I think it gives them the respect they deserve for all those years of service. I was wondering if you had any recent pictures showing the scars on the Nisqually? I have ridden on her a couple of times this year on PTK and have seen her in the San Juans before she was removed as the inner-island boat and heard the scars are visible but I did not know exactly where to look until now. One last thing as a side note, SS San Mateo posted a picture in the Washington State Ferries Photos section (reply #91) and ferrynutseattle (reply #92) identified it as the Nisqually. This picture looks to me like it was taken when the Nisqually went in for her renovation in 1987 based on the picture showing the renovation in progress on Evergreen Fleet's website in the Nisqually section (same dry dock and the Nisqually appears to be in the same position).
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 16, 2007 14:17:04 GMT -8
Evergreen Fleet: I saw your update last night on the Steel Electrics and thought you did a great job! I enjoyed seeing all the old pictures of each boat. I also thought it was good that you gave each boat a section instead of the whole class, I think it gives them the respect they deserve for all those years of service. I was wondering if you had any recent pictures showing the scars on the Nisqually? I have ridden on her a couple of times this year on PTK and have seen her in the San Juans before she was removed as the inner-island boat and heard the scars are visible but I did not know exactly where to look until now. One last thing as a side note, SS San Mateo posted a picture in the Washington State Ferries Photos section (reply #91) and ferrynutseattle (reply #92) identified it as the Nisqually. This picture looks to me like it was taken when the Nisqually went in for her renovation in 1987 based on the picture showing the renovation in progress on Evergreen Fleet's website in the Nisqually section (same dry dock and the Nisqually appears to be in the same position). I do, one I took last summer. It is pretty subtle and you have to be just about on top of it to see it. You'll note the horizontal line across the ferry? That's where they sliced her and raised her height back in 57-58. The spot in between where there is no line is where they had to replace the steel after the freighter hit her...so it's actually kind of an "anti-scar" since it smoothed out the place where she was cut to be raised.
|
|
|
Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 16, 2007 14:38:23 GMT -8
One last thing as a side note, SS San Mateo posted a picture in the Washington State Ferries Photos section (reply #91) and ferrynutseattle (reply #92) identified it as the Nisqually. This picture looks to me like it was taken when the Nisqually went in for her renovation in 1987 based on the picture showing the renovation in progress on Evergreen Fleet's website in the Nisqually section (same dry dock and the Nisqually appears to be in the same position). If that picture was taken at the same time as the picture of the Vashon on the waterfront, then it wouldn't have been from when she went into drydock for renovation since the Vashon was no longer tied up along the Seattle waterfront at that time. Did the Nisqually have those "rainbow stripes" along the green stripe on the car deck walls prior to her rebuilding? I do know that the funnel was repainted with the new scheme prior to the rebuilding. Another Nisqually question: When did the old light fixtures get replaced in the main passenger cabin? I noticed that in the last couple of years before the mid-80's renovation, the fixtures were different.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Dec 16, 2007 14:52:27 GMT -8
I didn't know that the funnels had even been repainted with the rainbow stripe. (JFTR, the Hiyu was IMHO the only boat that looked good in that stupid stripe.) I've never seen the rainbow on the gunwale of the Steel-Electrics.
The light fixtures on the Nisqually may have been different pre-renovation due to damage, theft (hey, it happens), etc. By any chance were they the simple glass-globe-with-bronze-cage affairs?
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 16, 2007 15:05:19 GMT -8
I didn't know that the funnels had even been repainted with the rainbow stripe. (JFTR, the Hiyu was IMHO the only boat that looked good in that stupid stripe.) I've never seen the rainbow on the gunwale of the Steel-Electrics. The light fixtures on the Nisqually may have been different pre-renovation due to damage, theft (hey, it happens), etc. By any chance were they the simple glass-globe-with-bronze-cage affairs? Alas, they did--at least on the funnel. And this photo, courtesy of Mr. Jon Hartog, shows the horrible proof: Looks like they got the flying T hubcap too.
|
|
|
Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 16, 2007 15:10:32 GMT -8
The light fixtures on the Nisqually may have been different pre-renovation due to damage, theft (hey, it happens), etc. By any chance were they the simple glass-globe-with-bronze-cage affairs? Yes.
|
|
|
Post by whidbeyislandguy on Dec 16, 2007 15:57:47 GMT -8
Well I for one just because they were fun little boats will miss them.
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Dec 16, 2007 16:29:11 GMT -8
I didn't know that the funnels had even been repainted with the rainbow stripe. (JFTR, the Hiyu was IMHO the only boat that looked good in that stupid stripe.) I've never seen the rainbow on the gunwale of the Steel-Electrics. The light fixtures on the Nisqually may have been different pre-renovation due to damage, theft (hey, it happens), etc. By any chance were they the simple glass-globe-with-bronze-cage affairs? Alas, they did--at least on the funnel. And this photo, courtesy of Mr. Jon Hartog, shows the horrible proof: Looks like they got the flying T hubcap too. Only the NISQUALLY had this stack repaint done. No others had this until their steelings. The ILLAHEE and NISQUALLY were the only pre-steeled ones to have the new masts with International Rules navigation running lights, replacing the wooden flag masts behind the quarters.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Dec 16, 2007 20:16:03 GMT -8
The light fixtures on the Nisqually may have been different pre-renovation due to damage, theft (hey, it happens), etc. By any chance were they the simple glass-globe-with-bronze-cage affairs? Yes. Then they were likely replacements for the original and considerably more attractive glass shades--again, damage or theft or some such.
|
|
|
Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 17, 2007 8:28:15 GMT -8
That picture of the Nisqually a few posts back (reply #107) looks like it was taken when she was on the Pt. Defiance-Tahlequah route (the only time I recall her being on that route was when the Olympic broke down and was out of service for a week or so).
|
|
|
Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 17, 2007 8:36:11 GMT -8
State may owe $2.7M for tax-benefit dealseattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004077683_ferries17m.htmlBy Susan Gilmore Seattle Times staff reporter The state may have to pay millions of dollars to two Midwest companies that years ago bought depreciation rights for the four Steel Electric ferries that are being scrapped. Between 1983 and 1995, state ferries received money from three private corporations for the transfer of tax benefits on nine ferries, including the four Steel Electrics. In the business world, it is assumed that equipment wears out over time. This gradual "depreciation" is an ongoing tax deduction, something that reduces the amount of tax due each year for many years. The ferry service sold those tax deductions to the two Midwest companies in exchange for $9.7 million up front. Presumably, as long as the ferries remained in service, the companies could claim the depreciation when they filed their taxes. Until it was eliminated from the tax code, the sale of such deductions was a common practice. When the state entered into these agreements, it was committing the Klickitat to operate until 2010 and the Nisqually, Quinault and Illahee until 2014. Because the ferries are being retired sooner than expected, the ferry service says, it may owe $2.73 million to Meijer Inc., of Grand Rapids, Mich., a retail giant, and to Haven Leasing, an Illinois company. Asked why the state would agree to such a deal on boats that were then already 60 years old, Traci Brewer-Rogstad, deputy executive director of the ferry system said she didn't know, that the decision was made in the 1980s by a previous administration. "I don't know why we committed at that time," she said. "You'd have to ask someone" from back then. For all the tax agreements, which involved nine boats, Washington State Ferries took in $24.8 million. The tax deals, which were approved by the state Legislature, were agreed to under the federal Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. When lawmakers met last month to discuss the future of the Steel Electric boats, Washington State Ferries provided a document that said, "The department has not anticipated a stipulated loss liability today, as we expected to fulfill the agreement by continuing to operate through at least 2014. If circumstances change that expectation, a loss liability may be incurred." State ferries are now trying to decide whether the Steel Electric liability could be transferred to other state ferries. There's a precedent for this: In 1995, tax benefits were transferred from the ferry Olympic to the ferry Elwha. The ferry system also is trying to determine whether it would have to pay if the ferries are taken out of service but not sold — whether the Midwest companies could continue to claim deductions on the vessels even though they're no longer carrying passengers. Susan Gilmore: 206-464-2054 or sgilmore@seattletimes.com Copyright © 2007 The Seattle Times Company
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Dec 17, 2007 8:48:55 GMT -8
For $2.7 million, I say give 'em the boats. Let Meijer and Haven Leasing sell 'em for scrap.
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 17, 2007 9:18:02 GMT -8
Then they were likely replacements for the original and considerably more attractive glass shades--again, damage or theft or some such. I stuck a photo of one of the original glass shade lights that used to be on on the Steel E's on the Illahee page, I think.
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Dec 17, 2007 12:42:43 GMT -8
Hello all - I am just looking for some clarification of where WSF actually is right now, there are so many useful threads I have found myself partially lost!
On the Port Townsend route is there a commitment to purchase to two smaller boats? Or is that just discussion? If it's just discussion is it at the state level, WSF...?
And the 144s, they couldn't operate on the route, is that correct? How many of those are they buying? Has a contract been signed for any ships?
Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 17, 2007 12:43:49 GMT -8
Steel Electric ferries built to last — but not foreverseattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004077688_steelelectric17m.htmlBy Susan Gilmore Seattle Times staff reporter Thirty years ago, Washington State Ferries hired a Bremerton company, Art Anderson Associates, to figure out what to do with the then-50-year-old Steel Electric ferries that were showing signs of age. The company made three recommendations: Buy new boats at a cost of about $25 million, refurbish the boats by fixing the hulls and building new deck houses for about $7 million, or dump the boats. The company figured the state would get about $25,000 apiece in scrap value. The Washington Legislature opted to fix the boats, which Art Anderson said would buy the state another 20 years. The work was so difficult, said Eric Anderson, with the Art Anderson company, that the shipyards initially had trouble even finding workers who could do the rivets on the old boats. Fast forward 30 years. The Steel Electrics were still operating on the Port Townsend-Keystone route in late November when state Department of Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond pulled them out of service because of wear and tear on the vessels. Earlier this month, a group of influential legislators said: Enough is enough; the ferries are too damaged to fix and should be replaced. And three days later, the governor agreed, pledging to find money to replace the boats — dipping into money that was earmarked for other ferry- service projects. She also arranged to rent a boat from Pierce County to replace the Steel Electrics on the Port Townsend-Keystone run until the new boats are built. That service begins in January. Boats "ran and ran"How the old boats lasted this long is testament to how well they were made and how well they were maintained, said David Black, a longtime ferry worker and historian from Poulsbo, Kitsap County. "The electric propulsion system was Cadillac," said Black, who worked 34 years for Washington State Ferries. "And they were in the loving care of the electricians in Eagle Harbor. The boats were overbuilt and just ran and ran and ran." According to historians, the boats, built in the San Francisco area, were sold to Puget Sound Navigation in July 1940, and all were sister ships. The Illahee was originally the Lake Tahoe, the Quinault the Redwood Empire, the Nisqually the Mendocino and the Klickitat the Stockton. The Lake Tahoe and Stockton were owned by Southern Pacific Railroad, while the Mendocino and the Redwood were operated by Northwestern Pacific Railroad, and all became part of Southern Pacific Golden Gate ferries in 1929. In the early 1900s Puget Sound ferry service was provided by a number of companies using small steamers known as the Mosquito Fleet, according to a history prepared by the Washington State Ferries. By 1929, the ferry industry had consolidated into two companies: Puget Sound Navigation and Kitsap County Transportation. A strike in 1935 forced the Kitsap County company out of business and left Puget Sound Navigation, known as the Black Ball line, with primary control of ferry service on Puget Sound. In 1951, the state bought all the terminal facilities and ferries from Puget Sound Navigation for $5 million and created a new authority called the Washington Toll Bridge Authority, which became Washington State Ferries. Bridges across SoundOriginally the ferries were to be temporary until bridges were built across Puget Sound, but that never happened. While the state took over the ferry business, the tiny Olympic Ferry Co. continued to run the ferry from Port Townsend to Keystone, Whidbey Island. In 1974 Washington State Ferries inherited the route when the company, which had been operating the route since the 1940s, went out of business. Then-Gov. Dan Evans ordered the state to take up the route, considered an important summer tourist link. The name, Steel Electric, was derived from the materials the boats were made from and from their propulsion systems. Diesel engines powered electric motors that propelled the boats. Black said there was a class of wooden boats called the Wooden Electrics, and when new boats were made of steel and had a diesel electric engine, they became the Steel Electrics. In 1958, he said, the boats went in the shop and car decks were expanded, but that was the only modification until the Art Anderson study 30 years ago. The Steel Electric boats are the only ones owned by the state ferry system that can fit into narrow Keystone Harbor. At one time there was talk about relocating the harbor so it could handle the other state ferries, but that didn't happen — in part because of community protests. And money set aside by the state Legislature to replace the Steel Electrics instead was shifted to building new 144-car boats, too big to fit into Keystone Harbor.
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 17, 2007 13:14:10 GMT -8
Hello all - I am just looking for some clarification of where WSF actually is right now, there are so many useful threads I have found myself partially lost! On the Port Townsend route is there a commitment to purchase to two smaller boats? Or is that just discussion? If it's just discussion is it at the state level, WSF...? And the 144s, they couldn't operate on the route, is that correct? How many of those are they buying? Has a contract been signed for any ships? Thanks! The plan is for three smaller boats, with two working Port Townsend-Keystone and one I am assuming for the Inter-Island in the San Juans. The governor announced the plan on 13 December. It is expected to be passed fairly quickly in the legislative session scheduled to begin in January. The plan is to have the first 54-car ferry in service in 14 months. The contract has been signed on three 144 car ferries. This happened on the same day. The fourth is going to be built some time later, at least from what one article I read said.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2007 13:56:28 GMT -8
For those asking for a good source of info, Ive found Everett Herald, www.heraldnet.com the best source of daily articles, and they also have all the recent independent surveys on SEs. Theyve published a whole slew of good articles the past 2 weeks
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Dec 17, 2007 14:05:07 GMT -8
Hello all - I am just looking for some clarification of where WSF actually is right now, there are so many useful threads I have found myself partially lost! On the Port Townsend route is there a commitment to purchase to two smaller boats? Or is that just discussion? If it's just discussion is it at the state level, WSF...? And the 144s, they couldn't operate on the route, is that correct? How many of those are they buying? Has a contract been signed for any ships? Thanks! The plan is for three smaller boats, with two working Port Townsend-Keystone and one I am assuming for the Inter-Island in the San Juans. The governor announced the plan on 13 December. It is expected to be passed fairly quickly in the legislative session scheduled to begin in January. The plan is to have the first 54-car ferry in service in 14 months. The contract has been signed on three 144 car ferries. This happened on the same day. The fourth is going to be built some time later, at least from what one article I read said. Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. So, for all effective purposes the three 54-car ferries will be replacing the Quinalut, Klickitat, and Illahee. The three 144s; are they additional capacity or replacing the Rhoddy, and/or Evergreen class? Sorry, one more question! With three 54-car ferries the presumably can sail in open channels, will this also spell the end of the Hiyu. I have always found it odd WSF held on to her, but here we have been in the last year or so with requirements to see her in service! Good thing I don't run WSF <G>
|
|
|
Post by SS Shasta on Dec 17, 2007 17:03:42 GMT -8
The plan is for three smaller boats, with two working Port Townsend-Keystone and one I am assuming for the Inter-Island in the San Juans. The governor announced the plan on 13 December. It is expected to be passed fairly quickly in the legislative session scheduled to begin in January. The plan is to have the first 54-car ferry in service in 14 months. The contract has been signed on three 144 car ferries. This happened on the same day. The fourth is going to be built some time later, at least from what one article I read said. Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. So, for all effective purposes the three 54-car ferries will be replacing the Quinalut, Klickitat, and Illahee. The three 144s; are they additional capacity or replacing the Rhoddy, and/or Evergreen class? Sorry, one more question! With three 54-car ferries the presumably can sail in open channels, will this also spell the end of the Hiyu. I have always found it odd WSF held on to her, but here we have been in the last year or so with requirements to see her in service! Good thing I don't run WSF <G> I still find it hard to believe that these fools would actually use this 54-car design to replace the Steel Electrics on the Port Townsend/Keystone route. One can easily see that they need strong tough weather boats. Also the 54-car limit would be too small for this route unless they plan to use all three vessels on the route on busy summer week-ends. I am never quite certain what a 54-car design would be? Is that 54 standard passenger cars or would in include space for 2 or 3 large truck trailers in the total? One might work in the Islands during the slack winter season, but the WSF Plan has an Evergreen State class vessel assigned to this route. From what I could observe this last summer, MV Evergreen State was filled to about 85% capacity on a mid-week trip from Friday Harbor to Orcas. Included in her load were several large and likely heavy pieces of farm equipment. I would hope that the 144s will be used to promote good will, increase current fleet capacity, and allow for (according to WSF Plan) adding the 3rd vessel to several mid-sound routes during the busy summer months.
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Dec 17, 2007 17:04:06 GMT -8
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first two 144 boats are slated for the Mukilteo-Clinton run to replace the Kittitas and Cathlamet. Those boats will then get moved somewhere else. The 3rd 144 was originally slated for the San Juans, but that was back when they were going to build 4 of them. I have no idea if they are still sticking to that plan, or not. It makes sense, though. The 144's are a perfect size for the San Juan route.
|
|
|
Post by SS Shasta on Dec 17, 2007 17:13:21 GMT -8
Then they were likely replacements for the original and considerably more attractive glass shades--again, damage or theft or some such. I stuck a photo of one of the original glass shade lights that used to be on on the Steel E's on the Illahee page, I think. Evergreen: Do you know if these old glass cabin lights contained the imprint of the SP Railroad? I remember looking at several of them in the cabin of MV Nisqually during the mid 1960's and many (not all) had these markings of the original owner/operator of the vessel on San Francisco Bay. I remember thinking WOW, these would be real collector's items!
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Dec 17, 2007 17:51:14 GMT -8
I am sure those lights would be wonderful in someone's front hallway. And they may not even know the significance of them.
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Dec 17, 2007 18:16:59 GMT -8
I stuck a photo of one of the original glass shade lights that used to be on on the Steel E's on the Illahee page, I think. Evergreen: Do you know if these old glass cabin lights contained the imprint of the SP Railroad? I remember looking at several of them in the cabin of MV Nisqually during the mid 1960's and many (not all) had these markings of the original owner/operator of the vessel on San Francisco Bay. I remember thinking WOW, these would be real collector's items! I don't, unfortunately, but that wouldn't surprise me. Not too surprising though, when the boats went in to be "refurbished" in the 80's, the lights disappeared from the yard at an alarming rate...
|
|