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Post by EGfleet on Dec 17, 2007 18:20:06 GMT -8
Thanks for the information, I appreciate it. So, for all effective purposes the three 54-car ferries will be replacing the Quinalut, Klickitat, and Illahee. The three 144s; are they additional capacity or replacing the Rhoddy, and/or Evergreen class? Sorry, one more question! With three 54-car ferries the presumably can sail in open channels, will this also spell the end of the Hiyu. I have always found it odd WSF held on to her, but here we have been in the last year or so with requirements to see her in service! Good thing I don't run WSF <G> I still find it hard to believe that these fools would actually use this 54-car design to replace the Steel Electrics on the Port Townsend/Keystone route. One can easily see that they need strong tough weather boats. Also the 54-car limit would be too small for this route unless they plan to use all three vessels on the route on busy summer week-ends. I am never quite certain what a 54-car design would be? Is that 54 standard passenger cars or would in include space for 2 or 3 large truck trailers in the total? One might work in the Islands during the slack winter season, but the WSF Plan has an Evergreen State class vessel assigned to this route. From what I could observe this last summer, MV Evergreen State was filled to about 85% capacity on a mid-week trip from Friday Harbor to Orcas. Included in her load were several large and likely heavy pieces of farm equipment. I would hope that the 144s will be used to promote good will, increase current fleet capacity, and allow for (according to WSF Plan) adding the 3rd vessel to several mid-sound routes during the busy summer months. Okay...you are aware that the current capacity of the Steel Electrics is 59, correct? The Klick could hold 64, and that was only because she had no elevator.
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 17, 2007 19:12:47 GMT -8
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first two 144 boats are slated for the Mukilteo-Clinton run to replace the Kittitas and Cathlamet. Those boats will then get moved somewhere else. The 3rd 144 was originally slated for the San Juans, but that was back when they were going to build 4 of them. I have no idea if they are still sticking to that plan, or not. It makes sense, though. The 144's are a perfect size for the San Juan route. Looking through the stuff I've collected (not much at that) and the last document released by the state on the subject, there are no firm vessel assignments given. The closest thing to it mentions they'll be used on the Anacortes-San Juan Islands routes, Bremerton-Seattle route and Mukilteo-Clinton, but does not say how many or who gets what first. I have read elsewhere, and when I can find the exact source I'll post it, that one was going to Mukilteo, one to Bremerton and possibly two to the Islands; later that changed to one at Vashon, one at Bremerton, one at Mukilteo, and one in the Islands. I've also read in various places that they are intended to retire the Rhody, Hyak and Evergreen State.At this point I think it is largely still up in the air... www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/EE10E205-74C1-4FB0-9096-42B79838C0D2/0/NewVesFS_102406rev.pdf
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 17, 2007 21:51:59 GMT -8
I still find it hard to believe that these fools would actually use this 54-car design to replace the Steel Electrics on the Port Townsend/Keystone route. One can easily see that they need strong tough weather boats. Also the 54-car limit would be too small for this route unless they plan to use all three vessels on the route on busy summer week-ends. I am never quite certain what a 54-car design would be? Is that 54 standard passenger cars or would in include space for 2 or 3 large truck trailers in the total? I would hope that the 144s will be used to promote good will, increase current fleet capacity, and allow for (according to WSF Plan) adding the 3rd vessel to several mid-sound routes during the busy summer months. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were being deliberately inflammatory. I'm beginning to think that, despite your claim of being in Ketchikan, that you are considerably closer to get a good vantage point of the situation; I'd certainly hesitate to call anything the Alaska Marine Highway does "foolish" because my vantage point really doesn't give me the ability to scrutinize close-up. Anyway. A 54-car design is referred to as such because the phrase "54-vehicle-space" is too cumbersome. A vehicle space is defined at WSF, at last check, as 20 feet (at the ticket booth, of course; it's only 18 feet when they're measuring on the vessels, a discontinuity I've never been able to understand). So, a 56-foot-length-overall semitruck and trailer would be called a 3-spacer, using up two other vehicle spaces in the progress. The vehicle space sizing is a tad arbitrary, but you have to figure capacity somehow. As for "according to WSF plan," ya gotta stop and assess the situation here. That script was officially tossed out the porthole on December 13, with the termination of the Steel-Electrics' careers. It would be nice to live in a world where plans didn't have to change and old ferryboats sail forever, but it doesn't happen. Heck, it would be nice to live in a state that was able to give its residents a profit check from oil...
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 17, 2007 22:28:36 GMT -8
Yeah, I thought I had read somewhare that Mukilteo, the San Juans, and Bremerton were slated for the new 144's, but that could have just been my interpretation, or who knows what? As EvergreenFleet said, everything's up in the air now.
Ok, this is probably silly, but here's my vision for a potential fleet deployment once the 3 new PTK boats and 3 144's get built. God only knows when that will be, but I'm assuming it will be at least 2012 or 2013 by the time we see something like this:
POTENTIAL FUTURE VESSEL DEPLOYMENT (summer schedule):
Point Defiance - Tahlequah: Klahowya West Seattle - Vashon - Southworth: Cathlamet, Issaquah, Kittitas Seattle - Vashon passenger-only: Skagit (or Kalama) if this route is still in existance Seattle - Bremerton: Kaleetan, Walla Walla Seattle - Bainbridge: Tacoma, Wenatchee Edmonds - Kingston: Puyallup, Spokane Mukilteo - Clinton: New144-1, New144-2 Port Townsend - Keystone: New54-1, New54-2, New54-3 Anacortes - San Juan Islands: Elwha, New144-3, Yakima International (Anacortes-Sidney): Chelan San Juan inter-island: Sealth
standby/relief: Hiyu, Hyak, Kalama (or Skagit), Kitsap, Tillikum retired: Evergreen State, Rhododendron (plus the Steel E's, of course) sold: Chinook, Snohomish
Here are my thoughts on why I placed vessels where I did:
1. 3 Issaquah 130's on the West Seattle triangle route should help with the traffic there until the long range plan breaks up the triangle (if that ever happens).
2. Putting a Super and a Jumbo, or even two Supers, on the Bremerton run makes sense to me just for the passenger capacity alone. I don't understand how they get away with an Issaquah class vessel on that route, even today.
3. The Bainbridge and Kinsgton ferries remain status quo, for now.
4. The two 144's on the Mukilteo run makes sense to help meet the ever growing vehicle traffic demands.
5. Port Townsend's fate has already been decided. I don't agree with it, but they will need all 3 boats on that run during the summer if they ever hope to clear traffic on each side.
6. Two existing Supers and a new 144 make perfect sense for the islands during the summer. Chelan works well as the International, and moving the Sealth to inter-island could potentially mean an extra daily round trip because of its faster speed.
7. The retirement of the Evergreen and Rhododendron is based on my assumption that this deployment wouldn't happen until at least 2012 or later. By 2012, Evergreen will be 58 years old, and the Rhody even older. It's already been mentioned by Barnacle and others that these vessels are nearing the end of their useful lives, so it seems natural that their retirement should come once we have some new vessels. Klahowya and Tillikum probably aren't far behind their sistership, but they are 4 years younger which may give them a little grace period.
What really will happen with the fleet remains to be seen, but this is my stab at a vessel assignment I think makes sense. Enjoy it for what it is! Oh, and EvergreenFleet, feel free to plug in some of your chosen vessel names for the new boats. I like your speculation about them on your website! ;D
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Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 18, 2007 8:28:50 GMT -8
WSF will no longer be operating the Vashon-Seattle passenger-only route by sometime next year (King Co. is taking over operations), so that route doesn't need to be included in the future deployment list.
As for the Rhody, her useful life is probably already over (narrow car lanes, inadequate overhead clearance, restrictions on the # of vehicles over 7'6" in height (put in place earlier this year), and those pathways to the evacuation chutes (which the deckhands really don't seem to try to keep clear) that extend over all lanes).
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 18, 2007 11:35:54 GMT -8
Yeah, I thought I had read somewhare that Mukilteo, the San Juans, and Bremerton were slated for the new 144's, but that could have just been my interpretation, or who knows what? As EvergreenFleet said, everything's up in the air now. Ok, this is probably silly, but here's my vision for a potential fleet deployment once the 3 new PTK boats and 3 144's get built. God only knows when that will be, but I'm assuming it will be at least 2012 or 2013 by the time we see something like this: POTENTIAL FUTURE VESSEL DEPLOYMENT (summer schedule): Point Defiance - Tahlequah: Klahowya West Seattle - Vashon - Southworth: Cathlamet, Issaquah, Kittitas Seattle - Vashon passenger-only: Skagit (or Kalama) if this route is still in existanceSeattle - Bremerton: Kaleetan, Walla Walla Seattle - Bainbridge: Tacoma, Wenatchee Edmonds - Kingston: Puyallup, Spokane Mukilteo - Clinton: New144-1, New144-2 Port Townsend - Keystone: New54-1, New54-2, New54-3 Anacortes - San Juan Islands: Elwha, New144-3, Yakima International (Anacortes-Sidney): Chelan San Juan inter-island: Sealth standby/relief: Hiyu, Hyak, Kalama (or Skagit), Kitsap, Tillikum retired: Evergreen State, Rhododendron (plus the Steel E's, of course) sold: Chinook, Snohomish Here are my thoughts on why I placed vessels where I did: 1. 3 Issaquah 130's on the West Seattle triangle route should help with the traffic there until the long range plan breaks up the triangle (if that ever happens). 2. Putting a Super and a Jumbo, or even two Supers, on the Bremerton run makes sense to me just for the passenger capacity alone. I don't understand how they get away with an Issaquah class vessel on that route, even today. 3. The Bainbridge and Kinsgton ferries remain status quo, for now. 4. The two 144's on the Mukilteo run makes sense to help meet the ever growing vehicle traffic demands. 5. Port Townsend's fate has already been decided. I don't agree with it, but they will need all 3 boats on that run during the summer if they ever hope to clear traffic on each side. 6. Two existing Supers and a new 144 make perfect sense for the islands during the summer. Chelan works well as the International, and moving the Sealth to inter-island could potentially mean an extra daily round trip because of its faster speed. 7. The retirement of the Evergreen and Rhododendron is based on my assumption that this deployment wouldn't happen until at least 2012 or later. By 2012, Evergreen will be 58 years old, and the Rhody even older. It's already been mentioned by Barnacle and others that these vessels are nearing the end of their useful lives, so it seems natural that their retirement should come once we have some new vessels. Klahowya and Tillikum probably aren't far behind their sistership, but they are 4 years younger which may give them a little grace period. What really will happen with the fleet remains to be seen, but this is my stab at a vessel assignment I think makes sense. Enjoy it for what it is! Oh, and EvergreenFleet, feel free to plug in some of your chosen vessel names for the new boats. I like your speculation about them on your website! ;D I like your vessel assignments, save for one--send the Elwha with her five feet of freeboard down to the generally more calm waters of the Bremerton route. Speaking of the Klahowya, she gets her gold stripes next year...
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 18, 2007 12:11:36 GMT -8
I'm glad you like it. And, of course, Kaleetan can always be swapped with Elwha for the islands. Question - is Elwha's "five feet of freeboard" an issue with just that vessel, or do the other Super's have the same problem?
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Post by zman on Dec 18, 2007 12:50:03 GMT -8
Evergreen, Great pics on the S/Es. They are awesome!
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 18, 2007 14:55:20 GMT -8
Question - is Elwha's "five feet of freeboard" an issue with just that vessel, or do the other Super's have the same problem? Nope, it's just the Elwha. The Elwha has her emergency generator in a different place than the other three--instead of portside car deck upper wing, it's startboard side, between the stacks--and it's on the same side of the vessel as the elevator. Consequently a positively rude amount of ballast had to be poured in with the additional weight, plus the enclosed stair cases, plus the sprinkler system weight... she's packing a lot more excess poundage than the other three, which is why she's the worst handler of the bunch.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 18, 2007 19:07:20 GMT -8
re WSF's long term operating budgets:
- If they had been budgeting for the cost of paint, re painting 2nd gold-bands on the 4 Steel-E's funnels, they can now find somewhere else to spend that cash. ;D
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Post by In Washington on Dec 20, 2007 14:25:29 GMT -8
I have some interesting S/E photos but I can't seem to get them to paste.
I am guessing you have to be a member and when I tried that awhile back I guess I wasn't accepted... Any advice?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 20, 2007 14:44:22 GMT -8
I have some interesting S/E photos but I can't seem to get them to paste. I am guessing you have to be a member and when I tried that awhile back I guess I wasn't accepted... Any advice? You don't have to be a member to post photos. This will explain how to post photos: ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=rrr&action=display&thread=1152081919&page=1#1189642218Did you try to sign up using the same name (but as one word instead of two) as your guest name? Someone did, but has never posted.
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Post by In Washington on Dec 20, 2007 15:41:39 GMT -8
Uhhh That would probably be me. I am often challenged in my attempts at computer literacy. I may create a new name "Not Real Sharp In Washington"
Thanks for your help!
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 20, 2007 18:16:44 GMT -8
For what it's worth, the picture-posting process on phpBB boards is not particularly user-friendly.
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Post by In Washington on Dec 20, 2007 19:39:28 GMT -8
[ftp]http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii241/redddan3/P1010007.jpg[/ftp] ============== [moderator edit: changed oversize pic from IMG to FTP-link. no worries]
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Dec 29, 2007 17:16:55 GMT -8
Cool drawing of the forgotten one, Whidbeyislandguy... it's just too bad how a two-dimensional broadside rendition doesn't capture the shape of the ship very well, making her look kind of boxy. But then, that might not be too far off
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Dec 29, 2007 23:24:36 GMT -8
Cool drawing of the forgotten one, Whidbeyislandguy... it's just too bad how a two-dimensional broadside rendition doesn't capture the shape of the ship very well, making her look kind of boxy. But then, that might not be too far off Yes the point was to have kind of a boxy look the Willapa was kind of boxy..
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 30, 2007 13:37:53 GMT -8
Yeah, the Willapa and Enetai were pretty boxy once they'd been converted.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 31, 2007 17:37:43 GMT -8
Here's some humour from the internet: ================ www.webcommentary.com:80/asp/ShowArticle.asp?id=simonl&date=071230As we approach the New Year, here are a few things I predict we’ll see in 2008:... Locally, some under-appreciated but very pragmatic engineer at the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) will set up several 50-gallon fish tanks with water from the areas in which our proposed new ferries will operate. That engineer will then take a small piece of metal directly from the hulls of the newly constructed ferries, paint them exactly as the hulls of the new vessels are painted, and immerse them in said fish tanks. The tanks will then be placed in the offices of senior officials of the WSDOT. Instructions will be prominently posted on each tank saying: "Scientific this ain’t, but when these plates begin rusting away, you’d best start thinking about having these new ferries inspected and repaired. And, even then, don’t expect them to last forever, dammitall." ========================
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Jan 1, 2008 13:22:24 GMT -8
Yeah, the Willapa and Enetai were pretty boxy once they'd been converted. I think they still had a very uniquely attractive appearance to them, though. There's just something about their long, low profile with the little round pilot-house balanced on top like that, with the layered rows of windows and portholes below, and all those snorkel ventilators and the tall funnel really gave them a balanced appearance.
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Post by EGfleet on Jan 1, 2008 14:22:18 GMT -8
Yeah, the Willapa and Enetai were pretty boxy once they'd been converted. I think they still had a very uniquely attractive appearance to them, though. There's just something about their long, low profile with the little round pilot-house balanced on top like that, with the layered rows of windows and portholes below, and all those snorkel ventilators and the tall funnel really gave them a balanced appearance. For the true definition of "Boxy Black Ball Boat" look no farther than the Malahat...
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Post by hergfest on Jan 7, 2008 18:20:07 GMT -8
They finally took the Klickitat off of Vessel Watch.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jan 8, 2008 8:47:44 GMT -8
On the subject of the Klickitat, I noticed there appeared to be some work being done on it (several items resembling tanks were on the car deck and some kind of 3 - 4 foot wall was in the center tunnel).
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Post by EGfleet on Jan 8, 2008 11:55:31 GMT -8
On the subject of the Klickitat, I noticed there appeared to be some work being done on it (several items resembling tanks were on the car deck and some kind of 3 - 4 foot wall was in the center tunnel). Some work, or some removal? I've heard rumors that they're already being scavenged for usable parts...
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jan 8, 2008 12:12:09 GMT -8
Some work, or some removal? I've heard rumors that they're already being scavenged for usable parts... Couldn't tell for certain. I did also notice she was listing to one side. I have a picture of what I noticed. I'll try to get it posted tonight.
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