Neil
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Post by Neil on May 3, 2023 19:47:39 GMT -8
Increasing speed by 10% can add 30% to fuel costs, not to mention wear and tear on machinery. They're operating the major vessels at their optimum service speed right now. But if they going to get delayed but make up time it’s seems like the passengers and crew would want the schedule to reflect the changes, because it seems like Captain already do the speed increase to make time, so the schedule should reflect. There's a difference between occasionally increasing speed to make up time, and building a higher speed into the schedule. As I said, the latter is very expensive.
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Post by WettCoast on May 3, 2023 20:08:00 GMT -8
But if they going to get delayed but make up time it’s seems like the passengers and crew would want the schedule to reflect the changes, because it seems like Captain already do the speed increase to make time, so the schedule should reflect. There's a difference between occasionally increasing speed to make up time, and building a higher speed into the schedule. As I said, the latter is very expensive. Of the four vessels on that route one has the speed to easily cut 5 or 10 minutes off its scheduled running time. Doing so would mean that it would match the speed of its two sisters running on routes 30 or 2. Of course I am talking about the Coastal Celebration. The Queen of New West was also modified heavily a 'few' years back to allow it to keep the schedule on route 30. So I am sure that it could cut the travel time on Route 1 by 5 minutes, if not more, without difficulty. Then there are the Spirits which don't have the speed of the other vessels but I am fairly sure they can cut five minutes if the have to, but maybe not so good to do that on a sustained basis.
Neil, of course you are correct about the fuel penalty that running faster would bring.
Another alternate means of achieving tighter car deck loads would be to up the available manpower on the car decks to pull drivers up to within 2 feet of the car in front of them.
Another note: In the good old days crossing time on route 1 was 1 hour & 40 minutes for the V-class vessels before they were 'lifted'. So the times today are already 5 minutes better than they once were.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 3, 2023 20:20:17 GMT -8
There's a difference between occasionally increasing speed to make up time, and building a higher speed into the schedule. As I said, the latter is very expensive. Of the four vessels on that route one has the speed to easily cut 5 or 10 minutes off its scheduled running time. Doing so would mean that it would match the speed of its two sisters running on routes 30 or 2. Of course I am talking about the Coastal Celebration. The Queen of New West was also modified heavily a 'few' years back to allow it to keep the schedule on route 30. So I am sure that it could cut the travel time on Route 1 by 5 minutes, if not more, without difficulty. Then there are the Spirits which don't have the speed of the other vessels but I am fairly sure they can cut five minutes if the have to, but maybe not so good to do that on a sustained basis.
Neil, of course you are correct about the fuel penalty that running faster would bring.
Another alternate means of achieving tighter car deck loads would be to up the available manpower on the car decks to pull drivers up to within 2 feet of the car in front of them.
Another note: In the good old days crossing time on route 1 was 1 hour & 40 minutes for the V-class vessels before they were 'lifted'. So the times today are already 5 minutes better than they once were.
The Spirits seems to manage to get back on schedule today they both 10 minutes behind on 3 pm sailing but still dock at 4:35 pm today. If BC Ferries is adjusting the schedule for minor routes, I personally think that they can play with route 1 to allow more time in dock but still dock as if they’re was no change in schedule, I think it could be interesting pilot project to see if increase in speed and change in departure time help out with delays on route 1 due the crew loading and reduced crew overtime. I think increase in speed could be offset by crew not going into overtime as much during the summer.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 7, 2023 18:38:14 GMT -8
There's a difference between occasionally increasing speed to make up time, and building a higher speed into the schedule. As I said, the latter is very expensive. ]The Queen of New West was also modified heavily a 'few' years back to allow it to keep the schedule on route 30. So I am sure that it could cut the travel time on Route 1 by 5 minutes, if not more, without difficulty. Queen of New Westminster can even make 10 minutes on route 1 because she left at 2:12 pm and arrived at 3:30 pm today.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 7, 2023 19:43:29 GMT -8
]The Queen of New West was also modified heavily a 'few' years back to allow it to keep the schedule on route 30. So I am sure that it could cut the travel time on Route 1 by 5 minutes, if not more, without difficulty. Queen of New Westminster can even make 10 minutes on route 1 because she left at 2:12 pm and arrived at 3:30 pm today. 3:32, actually. And did you notice that all her other sailings today took longer? You don't base a schedule on the optimum tide, wind and current conditions and the vessel's maximum operating speed. It's not realistic, and too expensive with regard to fuel.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 9, 2023 17:44:10 GMT -8
BC Ferries has posted the summer schedule for Denman, showing the first two boat service since perhaps the Expo year, 1986. Considerably more limited than Quadra or Gabriola; only weekdays, and only about eight hours a day. I wonder if they'll have any ability to add service for long weekends when things get really crazy. It's a step in the right direction, but it needs to be seven days a week. They had better shuttle when necessary as well, or it won't really represent a big improvement, with Kahloke being so small. They need sailings every 20-25 minutes when busy.
Quinitsa will be a major improvement at Hornby- again, if shuttling is the norm.
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Post by Departure Bay on May 13, 2023 5:12:20 GMT -8
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Post by arrrrmatey on May 13, 2023 6:17:39 GMT -8
If the current schedules are final, then route 2 will only have the Cowichan and Oak Bay this summer. Schedules and reservations pages show the Coquitlam is serving route 3 like usual, and the Alberni doing half-days (2 round trips) on route 30. This is a reduction in the capacity between Nanaimo and vancouver…. Maybe they haven’t secured enough crew for two shifts per day on the extra boat?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 13, 2023 8:54:09 GMT -8
If the current schedules are final, then route 2 will only have the Cowichan and Oak Bay this summer. Schedules and reservations pages show the Coquitlam is serving route 3 like usual, and the Alberni doing half-days (2 round trips) on route 30. This is a reduction in the capacity between Nanaimo and vancouver…. Maybe they haven’t secured enough crew for two shifts per day on the extra boat? Clearly a shift in capacity from route two to route thirty, which also reflects Tsawwassen's ability to handle drop trailer traffic, which Horseshoe Bay does not have.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on May 13, 2023 13:28:25 GMT -8
If the current schedules are final, then route 2 will only have the Cowichan and Oak Bay this summer. Schedules and reservations pages show the Coquitlam is serving route 3 like usual, and the Alberni doing half-days (2 round trips) on route 30. This is a reduction in the capacity between Nanaimo and vancouver…. Maybe they haven’t secured enough crew for two shifts per day on the extra boat? Clearly a shift in capacity from route two to route thirty, which also reflects Tsawwassen's ability to handle drop trailer traffic, which Horseshoe Bay does not have. Also, Horseshoe Bay lacks the flexibility to handle loading and unloading 6 ships in the course of a day efficiently. Just look at the past couple Fridays and Sundays with 5 ships...by late afternoon both the Surrey and Capilano have been running close to, if not more than, an hour late. The schedules are then thrown into disarray by the accumulated delays relating to cross-traffic and berth congestion.
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Post by The Black cat on May 13, 2023 16:14:24 GMT -8
I think it is time to permanently delete the Nanaimo run from Horseshoe Bay and focus on Duke Point to Tsawwassen. Get people used to rt 30.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 13, 2023 17:28:01 GMT -8
I think it is time to permanently delete the Nanaimo run from Horseshoe Bay and focus on Duke Point to Tsawwassen. Get people used to rt 30. No. There is too much population in the Vancouver-Burnaby-North shore area to funnel everyone south to Tsawwassen. Also, keep in mind that route two makes money. Tsawwassen doesn't have the space for another major route, but BC Ferries is doing the right thing in shifting some traffic to route thirty... Horseshoe Bay is too limited for further growth, and I doubt residents around Departure Bay would want it, either. I'd have to look through my old schedules, but I know this isn't the first time route 30 was augmented seasonally. There were eleven round trips in at least one summer.
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Post by The Black cat on May 13, 2023 18:15:42 GMT -8
If there were only 2 routes using Horseshoe Bay then it would be easier to have a stable and reliable service to and from Langdale and Bowen Island.
In the summer Bowen Island ship could leave Horseshoe Bay every hour on the half hour and the Langdale ships could depart ever hour on the hour or so. Service would be consistent.
The problem now only 2 ships on rt 2 in summer is massive overloads and waits especially during peak times such as Long weekends. I think that it is going to be a very interesting summer, would be better to have Queen of Coquitlam doing the L runs helping on both routes.
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Post by Ollie on May 13, 2023 18:54:20 GMT -8
I think it is time to permanently delete the Nanaimo run from Horseshoe Bay and focus on Duke Point to Tsawwassen. Get people used to rt 30. How could anyone want to remove a ferry route? And this does not make sense to me, Departure Bay would become unused or if Departure Bay were to be used for route 30 not many people would want to use Duke Point
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 13, 2023 20:32:21 GMT -8
If there were only 2 routes using Horseshoe Bay then it would be easier to have a stable and reliable service to and from Langdale and Bowen Island. In the summer Bowen Island ship could leave Horseshoe Bay every hour on the half hour and the Langdale ships could depart ever hour on the hour or so. Service would be consistent. The problem now only 2 ships on rt 2 in summer is massive overloads and waits especially during peak times such as Long weekends. I think that it is going to be a very interesting summer, would be better to have Queen of Coquitlam doing the L runs helping on both routes. I think you're dreaming. Given that Snug Cove is restricted to one lane loading and unloading with no separate foot passenger loading, and a 100 car vessel with BC Ferries' restrictions on service speed, as well as their cautious docking procedures, there's no way you're going to have hourly service to Bowen. And probably not an hourly turnaround for Langdale, either. At least BC Ferries is at long last recognizing the limitations of Horseshoe Bay in peak periods, and is looking to facilitate service to Vancouver Island through Tsawwassen.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on May 13, 2023 20:48:12 GMT -8
I think it is time to permanently delete the Nanaimo run from Horseshoe Bay and focus on Duke Point to Tsawwassen. Get people used to rt 30. No. There is too much population in the Vancouver-Burnaby-North shore area to funnel everyone south to Tsawwassen. Also, keep in mind that route two makes money. Tsawwassen doesn't have the space for another major route, but BC Ferries is doing the right thing in shifting some traffic to route thirty... Horseshoe Bay is too limited for further growth, and I doubt residents around Departure Bay would want it, either. I'd have to look through my old schedules, but I know this isn't the first time route 30 was augmented seasonally. There were eleven round trips in at least one summer. I believe that was the second summer route 30 was in operation. For the first time a second vessel, Queen of Coquitlam, was based at Tsawwassen to run opposite the Queen of Alberni which was based at Departure Bay. When the New West emerged from her lifting and repowering, she joined route 30 as a 3rd ship for the remainder of that summer.
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Post by WettCoast on May 13, 2023 21:54:27 GMT -8
Deleting route 2 is unthinkable, and restricting it to just 8 sailings a day at the height of the summer tourist season is going to get BC Ferries in some hot water (deservedly so, IMHO). Route 2 is the best route between the 'mid Island' and most of the Lower Mainland, and this will negatively affect me in a significant way. My wife has friends & relations in North Van and re are now in Parksville. Going over to visit via Tsawwassen is absurd.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 14, 2023 8:57:35 GMT -8
I personally wouldn’t mind if they get rid of Horseshoe Bay to Departure because I think those sailing could be put added to Tsawwassen to Duke Point and could easily see more Spirit Sized vessels built for route. I think I’m future might need to axe route 2 to keep up with demand of route 3 and route 8, I don’t see public support on BC Ferries to expand Horseshoe Bay to couple with increase demand. Duke Point want need to expand to handle the increase but it seems easier to do compared to Departure Bay. Capital Region seems to manage with only one with major route. The only thing that seems to draw back Duke Point service is lack of bus service but I think that could easily change with Regional District of Nanaimo Transit with delation of route 25 Ferry Shuttle and gives those hours to Duke Point route.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 14, 2023 9:08:22 GMT -8
Deleting route 2 is unthinkable, and restricting it to just 8 sailings a day at the height of the summer tourist season is going to get BC Ferries in some hot water (deservedly so, IMHO). Route 2 is the best route between the 'mid Island' and most of the Lower Mainland, and this will negatively affect me in a significant way. My wife has friends & relations in North Van and re are now in Parksville. Going over to visit via Tsawwassen is absurd. No doubt, depending on where people live, this decision is going to rankle. Ever since route 30 started, it's been an issue for me that there are only eight sailings a day in summer. Perhaps the growth on route 30 is greater than on route two, and unarguably, there is the drop trailer factor. They've decided to augment route 30 and maintain 1.5 boat service to Langdale, at the expense of route two. The only solution is the building of additional major vessels, not just to replace rustbuckets, but to add at least one more to the fleet. There is going to be an added expense as well, in the daily deadheading from Departure Bay. Time to start completing that stub at Duke Point into a proper berth.
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Post by The Black cat on May 14, 2023 12:58:36 GMT -8
The real issue to me is Horseshoe Bay terminal itself, and the fact there is only one exit. If a vessel is late such as the Langdale ship in berth 3, loading of ships in berth 1 and 2 is interrupted for the unloading of berth 3, thus causing further delays. And vice versa.
With the new Hullo fast ferry about to begin service that could potentially take a lot of the foot passenger traffic.
Now, There should not be a problem with a 2nd Nanaimo boat at Tsawwassen if that vessel ties up in berth 1 and the SGI ships use berth 2.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 14, 2023 14:10:39 GMT -8
The real issue to me is Horseshoe Bay terminal itself, and the fact there is only one exit. If a vessel is late such as the Langdale ship in berth 3, loading of ships in berth 1 and 2 is interrupted for the unloading of berth 3, thus causing further delays. And vice versa. With the new Hullo fast ferry about to begin service that could potentially take a lot of the foot passenger traffic. Now, There should not be a problem with a 2nd Nanaimo boat at Tsawwassen if that vessel ties up in berth 1 and the SGI ships use berth 2. I don't believe there's vehicle space at Tsawwassen for a third major route, which is essentially what you'd be adding by moving Nanaimo traffic from Horseshoe Bay.. In past private passenger ferry ventures to Vancouver Island, the effect on BC Ferries has been negligible. I'm very skeptical that this one will be any different, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. If the Black Ball execs who built the Horseshoe Bay terminal around 1951 could see it today, they would be astounded. As you say, the limited space makes loading and unloading awkward at times. It needs to continue in operation, but further expansion seems crazy, hence the slight shift south to Tsawwassen.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 14, 2023 21:11:36 GMT -8
Neil, I am at a lost to understand what you mean by a third major route out of Tsawwassen? The Nanaimo route has been in service since 1990, Tsawwassen has way more room available for expansion than The mountainous confines of Horseshoe Bay. What you're suggesting- closing route two and moving the traffic to route thirty- is essentially the equivalent of adding a third major route to Tsawwassen, along with routes one and thirty. I understand that the additional traffic would be accompanied by the additional boats to move the traffic, but I doubt that Tsawwassen, as it's currently configured, could logistically absorb that.
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Post by WettCoast on May 14, 2023 21:21:13 GMT -8
There was a time during summers many years ago when Horseshoe Bay handled four ships on route 2, two on route 3 and one serving Bowen for a total of 7 vessels. Though smaller then today's vessels they were still considered major vessels at that time and they also had to deal with most of those vessels having to back out of the terminal to commence their runs to Nanaimo/Langdale. What happened?
There was also a time when Departure Bay hosted both route 2 & route 30 vessels, three on 2 & two on 30 for a total of 5 vessels. They managed though perhaps with some difficulty.
There was also a time (1994 to 99) when BC Ferries was operating 12 major vessels on routes 1,2,3 & 30. Theses were 2 Spirits, 5 C class, & 5 stretched & lifted V's (including the QoNWM). Here we are a quarter of a century later with major population growth and just 11 major vessels. Furthermore no new vessels until 2027 is what I understand.
As we head into the summer of 2023 two of those vessels will be under utilized (Alberni & Coquitlam). I do not know if BCF could operate full days on those two vessels due to crewing issues. But every effort should be made to make it happen.
I predict much of the summer will be fairly chaotic especially on Route 2 if the current posted schedule is what is actually delivered.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 15, 2023 11:31:32 GMT -8
There was a time during summers many years ago when Horseshoe Bay handled four ships on route 2, two on route 3 and one serving Bowen for a total of 7 vessels. Though smaller then today's vessels they were still considered major vessels at that time and they also had to deal with most of those vessels having to back out of the terminal to commence their runs to Nanaimo/Langdale. What happened?
There was also a time when Departure Bay hosted both route 2 & route 30 vessels, three on 2 & two on 30 for a total of 5 vessels. They managed though perhaps with some difficulty.
There was also a time (1994 to 99) when BC Ferries was operating 12 major vessels on routes 1,2,3 & 30. Theses were 2 Spirits, 5 C class, & 5 stretched & lifted V's (including the QoNWM). Here we are a quarter of a century later with major population growth and just 11 major vessels. Furthermore no new vessels until 2027 is what I understand.
As we head into the summer of 2023 two of those vessels will be under utilized (Alberni & Coquitlam). I do not know if BCF could operate full days on those two vessels due to crewing issues. But every effort should be made to make it happen.
I predict much of the summer will be fairly chaotic especially on Route 2 if the current posted schedule is what is actually delivered.
They used to be able to turn vessels around more quickly on pretty much every route. Faster approaches to the berth, and maybe fewer TC regs on various procedures. We definitely are way behind in providing new vessels with more capacity. But really, it doesn't seem to matter what you're talking about these days, the public has gotten used to crappier service from every business entity we depend on, whether it be corporate or government. On this issue, route thirty's gain will be equally offset by more frequent backups from Horseshoe Bay stretching down the Upper Levels.
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Post by Dane on May 15, 2023 19:34:50 GMT -8
Maybe the summer will prove me incorrect, but I think BC Ferries has acclimatized vehicle traffic so well to reservations that the down-the-highway lines won't be what we once knew. Not saying they'll be gone, but the reservation system will likely effectively move some traffic to Tsawwassen.
This is, as has already been pointed out, a reduction in sailings - I find that the most interesting part.
Wonder if we would ever see the #2 Langdale boat to relief to Departure Bay?
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