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Post by sgrant on Apr 27, 2011 22:23:27 GMT -8
Having traveled between Tsawassen and Swartz Bay last weekend, our party remarked on the fact that one of the two new Coastal class ferries was not being operated on a long weekend, while both of the aging Spirit ferries were.
I mentioned all sorts of rumors etc., such as the Coastal ferries having one entire passenger deck that's not in use, that during some sea conditions captains will go south of Mayne Island rather than go through Active Pass, that the new ferries just never reached the efficiency level of older ferries, and that there were displacement/draft issues that were difficult to resolve.
I thought I would check in here to see if the knowledgeable participants know the real story on these matters, and to see what people think of the fact the Coastal ..?.. wasn't in use this weekend.
And while on the water outside Swartz Bay, we noticed that the Coastal ferry not in use has a very obvious list. Are the engines being replaced or something? Why at Swartz Bay?
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Apr 27, 2011 23:48:43 GMT -8
Having traveled between Tsawassen and Swartz Bay last weekend, our party remarked on the fact that one of the two new Coastal class ferries was not being operated on a long weekend, while both of the aging Spirit ferries were. I mentioned all sorts of rumors etc., such as the Coastal ferries having one entire passenger deck that's not in use, that during some sea conditions captains will go south of Mayne Island rather than go through Active Pass, that the new ferries just never reached the efficiency level of older ferries, and that there were displacement/draft issues that were difficult to resolve. I thought I would check in here to see if the knowledgeable participants know the real story on these matters, and to see what people think of the fact the Coastal ..?.. wasn't in use this weekend. And while on the water outside Swartz Bay, we noticed that the Coastal ferry not in use has a very obvious list. Are the engines being replaced or something? Why at Swartz Bay? The Coastal Celebration is currently undergoing refit while remaining at Swartz Bay's Berth 3. The Coastal Renaissance is down from Nanaimo and is currently acting as the number two vessel from Swartz Bay. Addressing your points: Deck 5 is not open unless the ship is running on an A license. The Coastal's have never used East Point while sailing on Route 1. I think you are referring to the times where SOBC had to avoid Active Pass during certain tidal conditions due to the loss of one of her four main engines. To meet modern maritime standards, ships of today must be designed and made up of multiple compartments. These, unfortunately, will lead to more weight. As specified by BC Ferries, the Coastal's were built to ice class standards (due to stray logs in our waters) and were also built to a forty year life span. In terms of fuel efficiency, the Coastal's have better fuel efficiency per ton than a C-Class vessel. However, the C's (built to 30+ year old maritime standards) will burn less fuel during a crossing. While I am not sure of the specific reason for the list, it is common to have DPM and third-party contractors vehicles and equipment on board during a refit. Items, including lifesaving appliances, may be undergoing service and recertification, as well. Coastal Celebration's home port is Swartz Bay. The work required for this refit can be undertaken there rather than taking up valuable space at EGD, VDD or DPM. |
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Post by uricanejack on Apr 28, 2011 1:37:51 GMT -8
Ice Class. realy?
Well I have heard stranger things. But not often.
There are several grades of ice class. ranging from will not sink to can plow its own chanel to north pole. But round here?
Logs have never damaged the hulls of the old boats, propelors logs damages lots.
The Queen of the North was originaly built as the Stena Danica for the Baltic and was ice strenthened. but she never kept up ther certification as ice class.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Apr 28, 2011 4:19:47 GMT -8
Ice Class. realy? Well I have heard stranger things. But not often. There are several grades of ice class. ranging from will not sink to can plow its own chanel to north pole. But round here? Logs have never damaged the hulls of the old boats, propelors logs damages lots. The Queen of the North was originaly built as the Stena Danica for the Baltic and was ice strenthened. but she never kept up ther certification as ice class. If you look back to the construction thread for the Coastals you will see the discussion on the ice rating. The hulls are ABS A1 certified Ice Class A5, A4, A3, A2, A1, A0, B0, C0 or D0 - ship complies with the requirements in the ABS Guide for Building and Classing Vessels Intended to Operate in Polar Waters and if memory serves me correctly, this mostly centred around strengthening the rudder and shaft housings to withstand log strikes. Again, it's all in the construction thread, and verified by our friendly engineer at FSG. |
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Post by sgrant on Apr 28, 2011 11:12:10 GMT -8
Many thanks to you, D'Elete BC in NJ, for the comprehensive and informative replies.
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Post by WettCoast on Apr 28, 2011 17:22:55 GMT -8
I recollect that the ice class business was about protecting vulnerable parts of the ship from log strikes. I do not expect to see an ice covered Salish Sea any time soon. There are no international standards for 'log-class' vessels.
As has been stated, the two Coastals at Swartz Bay was occurring because one of the vessels (C-Cel) was out of service for its annual refit. The second one (C-Ren) was there as the replacement vessel for the C-Cel. It was finished for the day, but had been serving as the second Swartz Bay based ship serving route 1 on that day.
Why do the Spirits persist over most of the year as the #1 boats out of both Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay? I believe that the answer is 'largely' due to their car and passenger capacity. Route 1 needs that capacity most of the time. Some people (me included) also feel that the Spirits are better boats (but I know that many will argue that point). The C-Ren, also, has no Pacific Buffet, which makes her somewhat less attractive to route 1 patrons. I expect BCFS to modify the C-Ren to be the same as the C-Cel, i.e. both with buffets. It appears that the C-Ren will become a regular on route 1 in the future. It may be that BCFS will use two Coastals as the #1 ships on route 1 during lower demand periods, with the Spirits providing supplemental service.
As far as fuel efficiency goes the Coastals have failed to live up to the claims made by BCFS prior to them entering service. Scott says that they are more fuel efficient than the old C class when compared on a weight to weight basis. (On that basis a Hummer may be more efficient than a Smart Car.) The key point is that 350 cars and 800 passengers can be delivered from Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay using significantly less fuel if the ship doing this is an old C class vessel. The Coastals do appear to be a little better on fuel than the Spirit class, however.
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Post by Scott on Apr 28, 2011 18:59:22 GMT -8
I suppose this has been discussed before, but I'm still not sure why we have less-efficient double-enders on route 1 when single enders work very well on that route (route 30 too).
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Post by lmtengs on Apr 28, 2011 19:14:12 GMT -8
I suppose this has been discussed before, but I'm still not sure why we have less-efficient double-enders on route 1 when single enders work very well on that route (route 30 too). The only really huge reason I've heard is the turnaround time, but personally, I still prefer single enders on those routes... |
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 28, 2011 19:35:38 GMT -8
I suppose this has been discussed before, but I'm still not sure why we have less-efficient double-enders on route 1 when single enders work very well on that route (route 30 too). It is my understanding that a sailing length of 1.5-2 hrs is about a wash for efficiency gains and losses of single VS double ended ferries. Anything longer and singles are better anything shorter and doubles are better. So, I guess it doesn't really matter does it. And as for fuel efficiency I made a long winded post somewhere else but to make a long story short, the coastals have a much higher energy demand than the old C's did, so they burn more, but a higher percentage of the energy that is put into the engines ie fuel, comes out as useful energy ie electricity and is not wasted or shot out the exhaust pipes. Cheers, |
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Post by gordon on Apr 29, 2011 8:03:00 GMT -8
when the time comes to replace the Spirits, it will be interesting to see if the go with an updated single ended vessel or a larger version of the Coastals. what does everyone think?
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Post by Koastal Karl on Apr 29, 2011 8:10:01 GMT -8
Replace the Spirits, lol! I still hear people call them the Superferries, which I guess they are but I heard people calling them that when they were first in service. The new superferries, lol!
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 29, 2011 9:34:22 GMT -8
I wish to make a comparison between the spirits and the Super C’s and as to why the Spirits are celled Superferries.
A spirit is to a 1940’s lead lined fridge that Indiana Jones can hid in to avoid a nuclear explosion as a Coastal is to a 2011 LG fridge with a bad limp and more knobs and buttons than my computer has, a built in Blue-ray player with satellite tv, and the ever daunting and confusing auto defrost feature.
So, Spirit will last forever, Coastal will last till end of warranty period.
As for what will be built to replace the Spirits, I think a larger Coastal, or maybe even just more Coastals will be built, depending on future traffic demands. Of course BCF is broke and will never be able to replace anything that big anyways, so the spirits will be around for a long time.
Cheers,
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Apr 29, 2011 11:29:31 GMT -8
I wish to make a comparison between the spirits and the Super C’s and as to why the Spirits are celled Superferries. A spirit is to a 1940’s lead lined fridge that Indiana Jones can hid in to avoid a nuclear explosion as a Coastal is to a 2011 LG fridge with a bad limp and more knobs and buttons than my computer has, a built in Blue-ray player with satellite tv, and the ever daunting and confusing auto defrost feature. So, Spirit will last forever, Coastal will last till end of warranty period. As for what will be built to replace the Spirits, I think a larger Coastal, or maybe even just more Coastals will be built, depending on future traffic demands. Of course BCF is broke and will never be able to replace anything that big anyways, so the spirits will be around for a long time. Cheers, The Spirits were designed and built almost 20 years ago utilizing the current technologies and standards at the time. All because the Coastal's are newer and built with today's technologies doesn't mean it's like a mass-produced, mediocre refrigerator with a bunch of "fluff" technological features. My point is that you can still have very high overall quality while incorporating modern technologies of similar quality. This is what FSG has done with the Coastal's and the NorEx. Now, if we translate this into the appliance world, it's like a Miele. ;D
Oh, the Coastal's are outside of their warranty period with FSG and are still going strong!  (...and they will be for many, many years.) |
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Post by Mill Bay on Apr 29, 2011 11:54:52 GMT -8
I wish to make a comparison between the spirits and the Super C’s and as to why the Spirits are celled Superferries. A spirit is to a 1940’s lead lined fridge that Indiana Jones can hid in to avoid a nuclear explosion as a Coastal is to a 2011 LG fridge with a bad limp and more knobs and buttons than my computer has, a built in Blue-ray player with satellite tv, and the ever daunting and confusing auto defrost feature. So, Spirit will last forever, Coastal will last till end of warranty period. As for what will be built to replace the Spirits, I think a larger Coastal, or maybe even just more Coastals will be built, depending on future traffic demands. Of course BCF is broke and will never be able to replace anything that big anyways, so the spirits will be around for a long time. Cheers, The Spirits were designed and built almost 20 years ago utilizing the current technologies and standards at the time. All because the Coastal's are newer and built with today's technologies doesn't mean it's like a mass-produced, mediocre refrigerator with a bunch of "fluff" technological features. My point is that you can still have very high overall quality while incorporating modern technologies of similar quality. This is what FSG has done with the Coastal's and the NorEx. Now, if we translate this into the appliance world, it's like a Miele. ;D
Oh, the Coastal's are outside of their warranty period with FSG and are still going strong! (...and they will be for many, many years.)I also don't think BCFerries had any real choice... Even if they had built them here, this isn't a county that doesn't have any standards on safety. You don't expect ships to sink here on a regular basis, so we have to comply to international standards for construction and safety. Even if identical copies of the Spirits were built tomorrow, internally, and below the water they would still differ dramatically from the current ships. Besides... the Spirits have enough fluff of their own, a la the massage chairs that were there at one point, and now the new Spa services offered on board. And, up on the bridge, that's a modern new steering yoke, as I recall, not some old chain and pinion connected ship's wheel that was much more reliable. I will give you one concession, however. I have noticed that in photos of the bridge of AMHS MV Kennicott, despite being a thoroughly modern ship and fill in command post for any disaster, that is one 'new' ship that still sports a traditional ship's wheel. Maybe if we outfit the Coastals with wheels, Brett would accept them ;D. |
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Post by WettCoast on Apr 29, 2011 17:21:21 GMT -8
There isn't much of a comparision between the Spirit ferries and the C. ferries, since as Scott pointed out there were two different means of construction and technology thereto used for building. A ship can last a long time, the Lonsdale Queen was quite an old tub before she sadly passed away. Same can be said for the Steel Electrics in Washington State. ?? Perhaps we'll take a trip on her next year on April 1st... Maybe you meant the 1903 built Langdale Queen?
Perhaps Mr. Harper would be kind enough to assist BC's ship building interests by not waiving the duties payable when folks like David Hahn turns their backs on BC yards and BC workers? He has pledged to assist the Quebec asbestos industry. Surely our ship builders can get some help. |
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 29, 2011 17:31:39 GMT -8
HAHA, well now is the time to remind you all that I think very little of the construction standards of the Coastals, I seriously see the Spirits outliving the Coastals. I might even put money on it. Nothing wrong with the structural and functional design so much as the marginal choices for plating thicknesses and such, that will show and I bet it will be soon. And the overall cheap finishes. NOTHING beats custom steel parts, kinda like what we see on the Island Sky that was built here in BC.
The analogy of fridges is that the older fridge is big heavy construction and inefficient but will work FOREVER. While the newer on is nice and efficient, lighter construction but more complex construction, and not as big it will not last as long.
My opinion and it wont change, well gimmie a million bucks and ill jump on the Coastal bandwagon.
Cheers,
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Post by lmtengs on Apr 29, 2011 20:52:10 GMT -8
There isn't much of a comparision between the Spirit ferries and the C. ferries, since as Scott pointed out there were two different means of construction and technology thereto used for building. A ship can last a long time, the Lonsdale Queen was quite an old tub before she sadly passed away. Same can be said for the Steel Electrics in Washington State. ?? Perhaps we'll take a trip on her next year on April 1st... Maybe you meant the 1903 built Langdale Queen?
Perhaps Mr. Harper would be kind enough to assist BC's ship building interests by not waiving the duties payable when folks like David Hahn turns their backs on BC yards and BC workers? He has pledged to assist the Quebec asbestos industry. Surely our ship builders can get some help. I was wondering if maybe Lonsdale Queen might be a nickname... maybe it's the former Seven Seas restaurant? |
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Apr 29, 2011 21:03:04 GMT -8
HAHA, well now is the time to remind you all that I think very little of the construction standards of the Coastals, I seriously see the Spirits outliving the Coastals. I might even put money on it. Nothing wrong with the structural and functional design so much as the marginal choices for plating thicknesses and such, that will show and I bet it will be soon. And the overall cheap finishes. NOTHING beats custom steel parts, kinda like what we see on the Island Sky that was built here in BC. The analogy of fridges is that the older fridge is big heavy construction and inefficient but will work FOREVER. While the newer on is nice and efficient, lighter construction but more complex construction, and not as big it will not last as long. My opinion and it wont change, well gimmie a million bucks and ill jump on the Coastal bandwagon. Cheers, Using that kind of logic... Why do you use a digital camera, instead of an old film SLR. Surely the film camera is more reliable, heavier built and will last longer than all this new age, flimsy digital technology. Maybe if we could actually see some numbers comparing the differences such as plate thickness, tensile strength of the steel embodied in both classes of ship, so we can see where these conclusions about their respective life spans are being drawn from. |
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Post by dofd on Apr 29, 2011 22:00:49 GMT -8
As someone who has done the Victoria run to many times.
The Coastal Class is better for the passengers, except if you are going to the Seawest Lounge. (Spirits are better). Coastals have better decks and better passenger spaces. I have been taking Spirits all winter and I love them. But this summer, I will plan my trips on the Coastals.
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