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Post by WettCoast on Aug 19, 2024 14:05:47 GMT -8
Of the four vessels on route 1 the New West has the smallest passenger capacity and also vehicle capacity. A good argument could be made that route 1 should have 2 Coastals & 2 Spirits to meet summer demand. I would love to see current data for the main routes showing what percentage of available space (for both vehicles & passengers) is being utilized and whether or not Route 1 traffic is pretty much equal to 2 & 30 combined as it was 10 or 20 years ago.
For the record I was unable to board the Queen of New Westminster as a footie on the August long weekend in 2016 because they were maxed out on their passenger license. It happens occasionally ...
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 19, 2024 17:49:46 GMT -8
Of the four vessels on route 1 the New West has the smallest passenger capacity and also vehicle capacity. A good argument could be made that route 1 should have 2 Coastals & 2 Spirits to meet summer demand. I would love to see current data for the main routes showing what percentage of available space (for both vehicles & passengers) is being utilized and whether or not Route 1 traffic is pretty much equal to 2 & 30 combined as it was 10 or 20 years ago.
For the record I was unable to board the Queen of New Westminster as a footie on the August long weekend in 2016 because they were maxed out on their passenger license. It happens occasionally ...
Interestingly, or perhaps oddly, BC Ferries doesn't give the capacity utilization or number of overloads for passengers... just the total number. A few other fun comparisons from the latest report to the commissioner for the three major cross-strait routes... Total round trips: 1: 4226, 2: 2815, 30: 2849 Percentage of sailings overloaded for vehicles: 1: 59, 2: 37, 30: 41 AEQ carried, in millions: 1: 2.5, 2: 1.3, 30: 1.2 AEQ capacity percentage utilized: 1: 90, 2: 74, 30: 73 Passengers, in millions: 1: 6.35, 2: 3.12, 30: 1.96 All three routes turn a profit just on operations, however, when everything else is factored in , route 30 still shows a significant deficit. However, its tariff growth for vehicles far outstripped route 2 in the most recent report, probably reflecting the decision to switch the third vessel. I find it surprising, and a bit disconcerting, that route one is overloaded 59% of the time. That no doubt contributes to it being such a cash cow. Bottom line, if you show up in your car at Tsawwassen or Swartz Bay just in time to get the sailing, more often than not in the course of a year, you won't get on. I always have a hard time understanding the figures for the major northern routes, 10 and 11. They're a financial black hole in terms of operations, but when you add in the 'ferry transportation fee' of $28.9 million, and the federal subsidy of $5.9 million, they come out ahead. Thank goodness for creative accounting, I guess.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 19, 2024 22:20:51 GMT -8
Of the four vessels on route 1 the New West has the smallest passenger capacity and also vehicle capacity. A good argument could be made that route 1 should have 2 Coastals & 2 Spirits to meet summer demand. I would love to see current data for the main routes showing what percentage of available space (for both vehicles & passengers) is being utilized and whether or not Route 1 traffic is pretty much equal to 2 & 30 combined as it was 10 or 20 years ago.
For the record I was unable to board the Queen of New Westminster as a footie on the August long weekend in 2016 because they were maxed out on their passenger license. It happens occasionally ...
Some politicians over 15 years ago promised to have 1 coastal on routes 1, 2 and 30. This never made sense operationally. It is unclear to me why that promise still needs to be honored all these years later. Things change - match the vessels to demand.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 20, 2024 12:23:44 GMT -8
I believe once the new major vessels enter service the plan is to operate five boat service on route 1 in summer.
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Post by gordon on Aug 20, 2024 13:09:50 GMT -8
If they go to a 5boat service on route 1 once the new major vessels are in service, will it still be possible to have third ship on route 30?
what vessel will likely b replaced 1st when the 1st new ship arrives?
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 20, 2024 13:11:34 GMT -8
If they go to a 5boat service on route 1 once the new major vessels are in service, will it still be possible to have third ship on route 30?
what vessel will likely b replaced 1st when the 1st new ship arrives?
I believe it will be 1 for 1 replace for Queen of New Westminster and Cowichan Class plus additional vessels.
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Post by Dane on Aug 20, 2024 14:17:36 GMT -8
Of the four vessels on route 1 the New West has the smallest passenger capacity and also vehicle capacity. A good argument could be made that route 1 should have 2 Coastals & 2 Spirits to meet summer demand. I would love to see current data for the main routes showing what percentage of available space (for both vehicles & passengers) is being utilized and whether or not Route 1 traffic is pretty much equal to 2 & 30 combined as it was 10 or 20 years ago.
For the record I was unable to board the Queen of New Westminster as a footie on the August long weekend in 2016 because they were maxed out on their passenger license. It happens occasionally ...
Some politicians over 15 years ago promised to have 1 coastal on routes 1, 2 and 30. This never made sense operationally. It is unclear to me why that promise still needs to be honored all these years later. Things change - match the vessels to demand. I don't think this is correct. BC Ferries, which athe time was deep in the "we are private and independent" phase advertised allocation as: 2 to 2 and 1 to 1. That's actually catchy, they should have said it like that. Anyways it came out when the CR or CI was in delivery phase that one was going to 30; my memory is a little shaky going that far back. I remember thinking it was silly. I still think it's silly. I'm sure this is all captured in the Coastal class build thread.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 20, 2024 14:28:39 GMT -8
Some politicians over 15 years ago promised to have 1 coastal on routes 1, 2 and 30. This never made sense operationally. It is unclear to me why that promise still needs to be honored all these years later. Things change - match the vessels to demand. I don't think this is correct. BC Ferries, which athe time was deep in the "we are private and independent" phase advertised allocation as: 2 to 2 and 1 to 1. That's actually catchy, they should have said it like that. Anyways it came out when the CR or CI was in delivery phase that one was going to 30; my memory is a little shaky going that far back. I remember thinking it was silly. I still think it's silly. I'm sure this is all captured in the Coastal class build thread. I always thought that Coastal Renaissance and Coastal Inspiration where both meant for route displaceing the Queen of Cowichan to route 30.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2024 17:57:33 GMT -8
I don't think this is correct. BC Ferries, which athe time was deep in the "we are private and independent" phase advertised allocation as: 2 to 2 and 1 to 1. That's actually catchy, they should have said it like that. Anyways it came out when the CR or CI was in delivery phase that one was going to 30; my memory is a little shaky going that far back. I remember thinking it was silly. I still think it's silly. I'm sure this is all captured in the Coastal class build thread. I always thought that Coastal Renaissance and Coastal Inspiration where both meant for route displaceing the Queen of Cowichan to route 30. No way. The ' Cowichan and her three closest sisters have never seen much time on route 30, given the route's lean towards commercial traffic. They just don't have the overheight capacity with their gallery decks. The Coastals' pax capacity is wasted on 30, but the truck capacity is important.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 20, 2024 18:02:05 GMT -8
If they go to a 5boat service on route 1 once the new major vessels are in service, will it still be possible to have third ship on route 30?
what vessel will likely b replaced 1st when the 1st new ship arrives?
As I have said before, during peak summer demand they need, in my opinion, 13 major vessels (versus 11 at present). That would be 5 on route 1, 3 each on routes 2 & 30, and 2 on route 3. They also need to build the second berth at Duke Point, and to double deck the second berth at Langdale. Last, but not least they need to get moving faster; 2029 for the first new vessel is not soon enough.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 20, 2024 20:17:05 GMT -8
I always thought that Coastal Renaissance and Coastal Inspiration where both meant for route displaceing the Queen of Cowichan to route 30. No way. The ' Cowichan and her three closest sisters have never seen much time on route 30, given the route's lean towards commercial traffic. They just don't have the overheight capacity with their gallery decks. The Coastals' pax capacity is wasted on 30, but the truck capacity is important. That what the province government said when the Coastal Class where first entering service.
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Post by Dane on Aug 20, 2024 20:34:46 GMT -8
BC Ferries, August 21, 2006
The new Super C–class vessels are planned to operate on BC Ferries’ Horseshoe Bay–Departure Bay and Swartz Bay–Tsawwassen routes. The specifications are for 160 metre vessels that can accommodate 370 vehicles and 1,650 passengers. For comparison, the existing C–class vessels that operate on the Horseshoe Bay–Nanaimo route are 139.5 metres and can accommodate 330 vehicles and 1,466 passengers.
The first new Super C–class vessel will arrive in British Columbia in December 2007, the second is scheduled to arrive in March 2008 and the third in June 2008. The new vessels are among the first of BC Ferries’ Newbuild program that will see 22 vessels built over the next decade and a half.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 20, 2024 21:52:14 GMT -8
BC Ferries, August 21, 2006The new Super C–class vessels are planned to operate on BC Ferries’ Horseshoe Bay–Departure Bay and Swartz Bay–Tsawwassen routes. The specifications are for 160 metre vessels that can accommodate 370 vehicles and 1,650 passengers. For comparison, the existing C–class vessels that operate on the Horseshoe Bay–Nanaimo route are 139.5 metres and can accommodate 330 vehicles and 1,466 passengers.
The first new Super C–class vessel will arrive in British Columbia in December 2007, the second is scheduled to arrive in March 2008 and the third in June 2008. The new vessels are among the first of BC Ferries’ Newbuild program that will see 22 vessels built over the next decade and a half.But once they got here it was one vessel for each route until they decided that Route 2 could limp along with just the old C class. Also, on vessel capacities, wasn't the C-class still listed as having a capacity of 360 at that time? I see that today BCFS lists the C class (other than the Alberni) as having slightly more vehicle capacity than the Coastals (311-316 for C class vs 310 for Coastals). Those numbers don't reflect the much greater over height capacity of the Coastals.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 20, 2024 22:01:26 GMT -8
Interestingly, or perhaps oddly, BC Ferries doesn't give the capacity utilization or number of overloads for passengers... just the total number. A few other fun comparisons from the latest report to the commissioner for the three major cross-strait routes... Total round trips: 1: 4226, 2: 2815, 30: 2849 Percentage of sailings overloaded for vehicles: 1: 59, 2: 37, 30: 41 AEQ carried, in millions: 1: 2.5, 2: 1.3, 30: 1.2 AEQ capacity percentage utilized: 1: 90, 2: 74, 30: 73 Passengers, in millions: 1: 6.35, 2: 3.12, 30: 1.96 Neil, do you have these numbers available for Route 3? I'd like to know if there is justification during the peak summer period for using the Coquitlam exclusively on that route. I believe it ought to be doing a trip or two on Route 2, as well as 3, but it maybe that capacity utilization numbers justify the way BCFS is doing it now.
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Post by Luke on Aug 26, 2024 9:20:22 GMT -8
Neil, do you have these numbers available for Route 3? I'd like to know if there is justification during the peak summer period for using the Coquitlam exclusively on that route. I believe it ought to be doing a trip or two on Route 2, as well as 3, but it maybe that capacity utilization numbers justify the way BCFS is doing it now. All of these numbers can be found in the annual report to the commission ( Link Here). For quick reference, here are these numbers for all routes from FY2024: Route | Capacity Utilization (%) | % of sailings overloaded | Tsawwassen - Swartz Bay | 90.3 | 58.9 | Tsawwassen - Duke Point | 72.6 | 41.0 | Horseshoe Bay - Departure Bay | 74.0 | 36.6 | Horseshoe Bay - Langdale | 68.6 | 32.3 | Swartz Bay - Fulford Harbour | 65.8 | 13.3 | Swartz Bay - SGI | 38.1 | 3.0 | Crofton - Vesuvius Bay | 52.9 | 5.2 | Earls Cove - Saltery Bay | 36.9 | 3.3 | Horseshoe Bay - Snug Cove | 62.8 | 13.7 | Tsawwassen - SGI | 71.8 | 6.9 | Mill Bay - Brentwood Bay | 82.8 | 2.3 | Powell River - Little River | 56.7 | 5.3 | Powell River - Blubber Bay | 44.1 | 2.0 | Nanaimo Harbour - Descanso Bay | 62.0 | 15.5 | Chemainus - Telegraph Cove & Preedy Harbour | 55.7 | 5.1 | Buckley Bay - Denman West | 60.0 | 14.0 | Gravelly Bay - Shingle Spit | 47.3 | 3.0 | Campbell River - Quathiaski Cove | 54.9 | 12.1 | Heriot Bay - Whaletown | 67.3 | 12.0 | Port McNeil - Alert Bay & Sointula | 34.0 | 0.6 | Skidegate - Alliford Bay | 43.6 | 4.3 | Prince Rupert - Port Hardy | 80.9 | 0.4 | Prince Rupert - Skidegate | 75.6 | 0.5 | Port Hardy - Bella Coola | 47.6 | 0.0 |
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Post by Ollie on Sept 12, 2024 19:12:27 GMT -8
Are there any specific points on the Northern routes where the ferries sound their horns? With all the narrow passages up north, I would assume there must be some horn sounding spots like Active Pass.
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Post by Charles on Sept 12, 2024 19:27:07 GMT -8
Are there any specific points on the Northern routes where the ferries sound their horns? With all the narrow passages up north, I would assume there must be some horn sounding spots like Active Pass. Pretty sure at “Boat Bluff and wherever this was?
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 12, 2024 20:29:03 GMT -8
Are there any specific points on the Northern routes where the ferries sound their horns? With all the narrow passages up north, I would assume there must be some horn sounding spots like Active Pass. I know Tackek or Quadra Queen II don’t sound there horn when departing Whaletown. So I think horn policy is based on Captain.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 12, 2024 21:07:12 GMT -8
Are there any specific points on the Northern routes where the ferries sound their horns? With all the narrow passages up north, I would assume there must be some horn sounding spots like Active Pass. To my knowledge the answer is NO. I believe horn use is mandatory when going through Active Pass (at both ends), but on the northern routes I am unaware of any mandatory locations. As others have mentioned they often use the horn when passing Boat Bluff light, but I think that's just a way of saying 'Hello' to the keepers there. Boat Bluff, b-t-w, is the half way point in the run between Prince Rupert & Port Hardy.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 2, 2024 20:02:26 GMT -8
Interesting service notice. It states that the Queen of Cumberland has a lower AEQ than the Queen of Capilano, which of course, is not true. The 'Cumberland has an AEQ of 112, but that depends on the platform decks being used, which is not practical on an 18 minute route. Sort of the same as the Salish class, with their basement cardeck that depends on a hatch opening and closing. I don't really understand why BC Ferries didn't go with more vessels like the Skeena Queen, with a completely open, easily loaded cardeck. Could have been longer, to go to perhaps 120 cars. Maybe the bigger hull was a prohibitive cost factor, but these hoistable/closable car decks limit a vessel's usefulness given a certain length of crossing.
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Post by paulvanb on Oct 2, 2024 20:32:11 GMT -8
Interesting service notice. It states that the Queen of Cumberland has a lower AEQ than the Queen of Capilano, which of course, is not true. The 'Cumberland has an AEQ of 112, but that depends on the platform decks being used, which is not practical on an 18 minute route. Sort of the same as the Salish class, with their basement cardeck that depends on a hatch opening and closing. I don't really understand why BC Ferries didn't go with more vessels like the Skeena Queen, with a completely open, easily loaded cardeck. Could have been longer, to go to perhaps 120 cars. Maybe the bigger hull was a prohibitive cost factor, but these hoistable/closable car decks limit a vessel's usefulness given a certain length of crossing. I don't know how practical they would for Bowen Island. They get lots of overheight truck traffic with the construction going on there. Dealing with platform decks would severely hamper on-time performance. Too bad that the Bowen and Mayne Queen are retired. They could have tried running a 2-ship operation, though, where would they park the second ship?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 2, 2024 20:47:53 GMT -8
Interesting service notice. It states that the Queen of Cumberland has a lower AEQ than the Queen of Capilano, which of course, is not true. The 'Cumberland has an AEQ of 112, but that depends on the platform decks being used, which is not practical on an 18 minute route. Sort of the same as the Salish class, with their basement cardeck that depends on a hatch opening and closing. I don't really understand why BC Ferries didn't go with more vessels like the Skeena Queen, with a completely open, easily loaded cardeck. Could have been longer, to go to perhaps 120 cars. Maybe the bigger hull was a prohibitive cost factor, but these hoistable/closable car decks limit a vessel's usefulness given a certain length of crossing. I don't know how practical they would for Bowen Island. They get lots of overheight truck traffic with the construction going on there. Dealing with platform decks would severely hamper on-time performance. Too bad that the Bowen and Mayne Queen are retired. They could have tried running a 2-ship operation, though, where would they park the second ship? Paul... You've posted enough from Bowen to know that two ferries can't be accommodated on that route. Unless, and it's fascinating that you posted a photo of Porteau Cove above this one... BC ferries was willing to park a boat at Porteau, and deadhead it twice a day. Can't see that happening. Bowen is a real conundrum.
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Post by Ollie on Oct 2, 2024 20:49:58 GMT -8
I don't know how practical they would for Bowen Island. They get lots of overheight truck traffic with the construction going on there. Dealing with platform decks would severely hamper on-time performance. Too bad that the Bowen and Mayne Queen are retired. They could have tried running a 2-ship operation, though, where would they park the second ship? Paul... You've posted enough from Bowen to know that two ferries can't be accommodated on that route. Unless, and it's fascinating that you posted a photo of Porteau Cove above this one... BC ferries was willing to park a boat at Porteau, and deadhead it twice a day. Can't see that happening. Bowen is a real conundrum. The second berth at Langdale and the Porteau Cove berths are both available. They are doing similar with the Queen of Alberni just fine.
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Post by paulvanb on Oct 2, 2024 20:53:06 GMT -8
I don't know how practical they would for Bowen Island. They get lots of overheight truck traffic with the construction going on there. Dealing with platform decks would severely hamper on-time performance. Too bad that the Bowen and Mayne Queen are retired. They could have tried running a 2-ship operation, though, where would they park the second ship? Paul... You've posted enough from Bowen to know that two ferries can't be accommodated on that route. Unless, and it's fascinating that you posted a photo of Porteau Cove above this one... BC ferries was willing to park a boat at Porteau, and deadhead it twice a day. Can't see that happening. Bowen is a real conundrum. It is where they would park a second one. In summer a second boat would be a godsend. Everyone and their dog goes over, and the dangerous cargo sailing on Wednesdays make it even worse. Then, with the Cap being the runt child, keeps getting the short end of the stick for loading/unloading. I was so furious the day she was late, they started loading her, then stopped to unload another boat before continuing to load us again.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 2, 2024 21:50:04 GMT -8
Paul... You've posted enough from Bowen to know that two ferries can't be accommodated on that route. Unless, and it's fascinating that you posted a photo of Porteau Cove above this one... BC ferries was willing to park a boat at Porteau, and deadhead it twice a day. Can't see that happening. Bowen is a real conundrum. It is where they would park a second one. In summer a second boat would be a godsend. Everyone and their dog goes over, and the dangerous cargo sailing on Wednesdays make it even worse. Then, with the Cap being the runt child, keeps getting the short end of the stick for loading/unloading. I was so furious the day she was late, they started loading her, then stopped to unload another boat before continuing to load us again. It's probably a pipe dream, or whatever else you might call an unlikely venture, but there was the company I read about a while back that 'floated' the idea of a passenger ferry operating out of Tunstall or Bowen Bay to Vancouver. That might take some of the pressure off Snug Cove, but I can't imagine working out the logistics of a hundred or 150 people parking or transferring from cars or, getting off buses at Tunstall Bay, to make a sailing viable. The thing that makes the most sense for Bowen from a purely logistic standpoint is something that really can't happen in terms of the community; a berth and a tie up berth on the south side of Snug Cove, with an entrance from Dorman Road and a marshalling yard that would use the parkland alongside the Davies orchard... it would probably mean dredging, and the loss of marina capacity. Bowen just really can't be solved.
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