SPIRIT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA - Photos & Discussion

[hwy19man]

Anybody know what kind of schedule the SBC will be doing on some days between Oct. 14 and 28? Check the weird schedule for route 1 (Oct. 14-31), it is horribly confusing. Does Fort Street know what they are doing?

[Hardy]

Oct 8, 2008 11:19:36 GMT -8 hwy19man said:

Does Fort Street know what they are doing?

I think that you well know it is a rhetorical question you are asking ... and I think that you DON'T really want me to honestly answer it either ...

[Ferryman]

Currently she's heading via Boundary Pass, on the American side of the border.

[johnnytindale]

I ended up on the scheduled 7:00 PM SOBC sailing from Tsawwasson last night. We ended up sailing via Boundary Pass and made pretty good time. The SOBC was late arriving from Swartz so we didn't depart until 19:25, but arrived at Swartz at 21:25, ahead of the announced ETA by 10 min. I didn't really mind the scenic route, but wish it could have been daytime so I could actually see the sights! There were several announcements from the bridge during the sailing reminding passengers of the alternate route being taken and the ETA. If anyone has the chance to sail the SOBC when taking the Boundary Pass route, it would be good to take some photos.

[gordon]

Is the SoBC still going in for her major engine overhall starting next week because becuse the online reservation pages show her as being in regullar service for the next couple of weeks?

[Dane]

She's not doing well today - 3pm and 5pm canceled as she looks to be about 2 hours late right now.

[johnnytindale]

Nov 12, 2008 14:55:20 GMT -8 gordon said:

Is the SoBC still going in for her major engine overhall starting next week because becuse the online reservation pages show her as being in regullar service for the next couple of weeks?

It seems the SOBC's engine overhaul is being delayed until February now....

Afternoon ferry cancelled; sailings slowed by wind

Times Colonist


Thursday, November 13, 2008


High winds have put the Spirit of British Columbia one hour and 22 minutes behind schedule as it heads to Swartz Bay from Tsawwassen.

The ferry has been running late since its first sailing this morning.

Deborah Marshall, spokeswoman for B.C. Ferries, said the ferry was delayed at its scheduled 6:30 a.m. sailing, and did not leave until 7:08 a.m. due to high winds. The weather conditions persisted throughout the morning.

"Each progressive sailing started later and later," Marshall said. The Spirit of British Columbia is also operating on only three of its four engines and it was expected that the vessel would have to make at least one trip this morning through a longer southerly route to avoid strong tidal action through Active Pass.

The failed engine was to be overhauled during a scheduled refit this month, however, the refit has been pushed back to mid-February, 2009 as B.C. Ferries is still waiting on delivery of a crankshaft.

Light traffic on today's Swartz Bay - Tsawwassen route led B.C. Ferries to cancel the Spirit of British Columbia's 3 p.m. sailing in order to bring it back into line with the schedule. The next sailing from Swartz Bay to Tsawwassen is expected to leave at 5 p.m.

www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=ac255b27-02c4-4bb3-9f18-df4a5227dae1

[Hardy]

I am not so sure that it is the wisest thing to keep running the broken boat (am I sounding like a broken record yet?) Having only the 3 engines caused her not to be able to make speed in the sea state created by the winds (check her sailing times to analyze the crossing times if you doubt me). I am sure that she is a whole heck of a lot less maneuverable in tight in high seas (IE docking, which is usually the problem at Tsawwassen anyways in windy conditions!) with a bum engine.

But yet we let the CC sit .... makes no sense to me.

As for the sailing cancellation, yeah, that is the new BCFS policy to get late-running boats back on schedule - just cancel a rounder to fix the schedule ... makes PERFECT sense. Financially anyways -- sure still pay the crew, but no fuel burn! Maxes the capacity of the follow-on sailings too. So the 800-# calls go up a bit from choked customers -- remember, BCFS is NOT in the business of providing CUSTOMER SERVICE - they are a FERRY TRANSPORTATION COMPANY.

[Ferryman]

The SoBC is currently going via Boundary Pass again, and is nearly pushing 20 knots. She must have a tail wind!

[Hardy]

Nov 13, 2008 19:42:35 GMT -8 Ferryman said:

pushing 20 knots. She must have a tail wind!

?? Oarsmen on the Main Car Deck ?? Sounds like a more plausible solution. Unless they took a lumber/drywall truck's tarp and rigged a sail off the mast .... ??

[rt1commuter]

I betting they'll pull her by the weekend if she keep running like this. It's been bad before, but the last few days have been horrible. On Sunday she seemed to be fine, whipped right past the QofN on the way to Active pass on the 7:30 sailing.

[Quatchi]

Remember the AIS data is based upon GPS, so you have to account for tidal force pushing the ship just like wind does except its much more powerful. The ships water speed might only be 17-18 knots, but with the tide pushing her it could be off quite a bit.

I am not sure if modern Navigation equipment will account for this or not, if it does its obviously not perfect, and there can be some small discrepancies.

Cheers,

[Hardy]

Nov 14, 2008 2:55:58 GMT -8 rt1commuter said:

I betting they'll pull her by the weekend if she keep running like this. It's been bad before, but the last few days have been horrible.

They are under no obligation to provide on-time or even timely service. Customer Service, as has been stated, is not mandated either. Revenue and profit are the only goals of this company.

[Dane]

Speaking to some crew last night with Donella they reported it has been particularly bad this week as well, although did believe they'd keep going until March when parts arrived which need fabrication.

[Nick]

The SOBC's refit has been postponed to well into the new year, because of a crankshaft that must be specially made. Because the engines in the Spirits are no longer being made, a lot of the engine specific parts are needing special machining. Of course, that adds time and cost.

Bottom line is, even if BCF really wants to pull the SOBC and repair her now, they have no choice due to lack of parts.

[Hardy]

Nov 15, 2008 16:24:37 GMT -8 Nick said:

The SOBC's refit has been postponed to well into the new year ... Because the engines in the Spirits are no longer being made, a lot of the engine specific parts are needing special machining.

Shall we compare this wonderful condition to the building process of the Coastals too, in terms of parts availability, or is that too harsh a contrast?

I'd thought of this before: when you have a "throw-together" corporate amalgamation of BC shipyards to build the Lego Sisters, and then some of those shipyards (Vito) are no longer around, and others have changed ownership and are not really in the business of newbuilding large-scale ships, what happens when remanufacturing, custom-spares etc is required?

Contrast this to FSG which has been in the business for HOW many years and was not just a throw-together? What happened to CFI? How would any potential FastCat owner contact THEM for information or repair instructions? Hmmmm.

[WettCoast]

Hardy,

Your logic is the reason that scads of North American would be vehicle purchasers are shying away from GM, Ford & Chrysler. They are uncertain about whether warranties will be honoured, parts availability, etc., etc. Does that mean we should turn our backs on the North American auto industry, and especially the people they employ?

I assume that you own your truck, perhaps several trucks. Will the next one that you purchase be North American?

On a related note six of the Seven Sisters (plus the Bowen class trio, and the QPR) were built by a yard that went out of the ship building business 40 years ago. That fact really has not had a significant impact on the performance & longevity of these ships.

[Quatchi]

I don't think that the fact that the spirits were built by a "thrown together" company has anything to do with the need of parts for the spirits. All the shipyard does is build a hull, paint it, and install all the equipment that is made by other manufacturers.

You have to remember that shipbuilding is not like auto manufacturing at all. Even FSG is only on there 749th hull, and I'm pretty sure GM makes at least 10 thousand vehicles a year. There is always a demand for car parts, thus there is a market to reproduce parts that aren't in the current model lineup anymore. This is why you can go to your local parts store and buy a new crank for your 58 chev. panel truck and it will be delivered within a week.

The shipbuilding market is completely different, companies don't manufacture over 10 thousand engine in one year, and usually once they are installed in the ship and make it through the warranty period they will last for a long time, so there is no demand for parts for these engines if the owners maintain them properly. Usually be the time they do go its not worth repairing them.

BCF is stupid and they fried the engine on the SOBC, now we will pay for their mistake. The original manufacturer can't be expected to have millions of dollars in spare parts for 15 year old engines lying around when there is almost no demand - hold this situation.

Really this far into a ships life the shipbuilder has no responsibility to the vessel at all, except for providing drawings, which would have been done when the ship was handed over to BCF. So if you screw it up you fix it.

Cheers,

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Nov 16, 2008 12:06:05 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

...Even FSG is only on there 749th hull, and I'm pretty sure GM makes at least 10 thousand vehicles a year....

lol...you might want to take that up by 3 powers...GM's total car production for 2003 totaled around 10 million units produced across all lines (GM, Chev, Caddy, Buick, Pontiac...)...based on total world production at all plants for one year alone.

Nov 16, 2008 12:06:05 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

...There is always a demand for car parts, thus there is a market to reproduce parts that aren't in the current model lineup anymore. This is why you can go to your local parts store and buy a new crank for your 58 chev. panel truck and it will be delivered within a week.

The shipbuilding market is completely different, companies don't manufacture over 10 thousand engine in one year, and usually once they are installed in the ship and make it through the warranty period they will last for a long time, so there is no demand for parts for these engines if the owners maintain them properly. Usually be the time they do go its not worth repairing them....

But GM doesn't produce all its parts in-house; there is a HUGE manufacturing capacity that backs up GM, Ford and Dodge which is not own by any of them (...many fundamentally tied to them since they are mostly single client businesses, but not owned by...). These supply-side companies (or some of their more enterprising former employees) are the ones who provide the after-sale/market manufacturing capacity for the auto market. While I agree the volume of sales on ship engines is sufficiently low to preclude such a side industry, I think it is irresponsible of all parties involved not to have a contingency plan in place given possible failures. I'm not saying, "Keep parts on hand." But I do think it is prudent to maintain access to the shop drawings so that a part can be re-manufactured instead of reverse or re-engineered.

In addition, especially on an engine of this size, you are going to try and do as many repairs as you can before replacing it. I'm sure Hardy will back me up on this; if he were to replace an engine every time a cylinder sleeve or valve needed replacing, he wouldn't be in business for long. Most repairs are significantly less expensive (and in the case of a ship, significantly less complicated) than complete replacement as often 90% plus of the parts don't require replacement.

[Northern Exploration]

And don't forget one of our own massive suppliers to most of the car companies, Magna. They build whole vehicles under contract with European manufacturers in their plants in Austria. Magna produces everything from soup to nuts for almost every one of the big North American three manufacturers and the others as well. Should GM or one of the others go under, not only would there be large scale investment in some other form by government, you would see someone like Magna get huge subsidies to try to encourage employment of the masses of unemployed.

So lets assume some of the panic button pushers are right and GM is going to go under. Not every part for your car would become unavailable. Not only is there the original parts that are stock piled by suppliers outside of GM, but there are the Napa, Canuck Tire, and other non-original suppliers who manufacturer the same part. Without the official parts on the market you would see even more non-original suppliers step up to the plate.

If you own an antique and classic car there are plenty of part sources for you if you have the money. There is a small but significant network of companies who specialize in building very small quantities of parts for these cars. Sometimes as well you can get a particular part custom made, one off. If money is no object you can nearly build a whole new replica car from scratch that is accurate to the orginal.

When some of the vintage aircraft are restored they are done almost exclusively using remanufactured and handbuilt parts.

The key to all of this though is $$$ and time. Maybe BC Ferries should buy two or more while they are at it this round so they actually have a spare on hand. Possibly they can get a price break by ordering more than one.

[Quatchi]

OK so GM makes a lot more vehicle than I thought. What I'm getting at is Economies of Scale, and when I say an engine is done I mean a 20-30 year old engine has blown a crank or cracked a block.

Cheers,

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Nov 17, 2008 15:20:59 GMT -8 Quatchi said:

OK so GM makes a lot more vehicle than I thought. What I'm getting at is Economies of Scale, and when I say an engine is done I mean a 20-30 year old engine has blown a crank or cracked a block.

Cheers,

...but I'd take the 39 year old 4 bolt main 350 block, 35 year old forged 400 crank, and 33 year old camel heads, deck it, bore it, balance it, blueprint it, clean and shape the combustion chambers, throw in new bearings, seals, connecting rods and pistons, valves, roller cam and lifters, mid-rise, high-flow intake and 4bbl carb...smack it onto the 25 year old rebuilt T-5 tranny, and slip it into the 39 year old Trans Am... If the block was cracked, I might look for a new old one; if the crank was twisted, I likely pitch it...but if those camel heads had an issue, you can bet I'd make every effort to save them... ;D

lol...now after that little sidetrack ... I was getting at the fact that the problem with replacing engines in a ship is the logistics of actually removing them. Unlike most cars, access is often extremely limited and, therefore, if you can repair or replace a part instead of replacing an engine, it is just easier.

[Low Light Mike]

Here's an excerpt from a National Post comment today (part of an article rebutting the thetyee.ca recent articles re the 3 Coastal ships).

This excerpt was meant to illustrate that other ships in the fleet have had early-on "issues" too.

I wasn't familiar with the SOBC problems noted below. Does anyone else recall this, and is the below-excerpt accurate? (no, I'm not blindly trusting the Conrad/Izzy legacy post)

People with better memories will recall concerns the B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers Union raised over the first of two large Spirit Class ferries. Introduced in 1993, the Spirit of B.C. was removed from service after an initial six-month run. Rumours circulated that the B.C.-built ship was a flop. A lemon, if you will. The union even called for an independent investigation into the ship’s supposed failures.

Two months later, her issues resolved, the Spirit of B.C. was back plying her route. She was soon joined by her sister ship, the Spirit of Vancouver Island. They remain in service to this day

[note: the above quote is from an article posted on the "the new ships suck" thread in the BC Ferries News page of this forum...

[Ferryman]

I don't recall the exact issue of why she was pulled out of service after a six month run...But I can remember hearing about them forgetting to hook the final pipes up to the sewage tanks, and never found out until the first sailing was underway with paying passengers......OOPS!

[Nick]

There were quite a few issues with the SOBC when she first came out. The HVAC system didn't work properly (heat on no matter the temperature), the sewage system had venting issues as well as the "boo-boo" Ferryman mentioned above, and she had significant vibration issues at the stern. If I recall correctly from what one of my profs at school mentioned (he consulted for BCF on the vibration issues), the vibration issues were fixed after about 6 months after starting service.