D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 26, 2007 6:13:05 GMT -8
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 27, 2007 9:49:25 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Mar 29, 2007 21:13:50 GMT -8
The following is a copy of an email I recently received from BCFS's.
I suspect that the longer check in time is made necessary by the complicated loading procedure that will be in place on the NorAd due to it not being of 'RoRo' design. Another example, perhaps' of the 'enhanced service'. If you are traveling on the Inside Passage this summer they want you at the terminal by 5:30 am - ouch!
When in service to QCI, however, the trip will be shorter in spite of the longer checkin due to the NorAd's much better speed when compared with the QPR.
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Post by Scott on Mar 29, 2007 23:24:19 GMT -8
The Northern Adventure is certainly an enhancement in service over last year. The more I think about it and the more I hear some of the thoughts and observations on this forum though, this new ferry sounds like shes half the ship the Queen of the North was. I can't imagine spending a long trip on the N.A. Imagine a vomit-inducing crossing of Hecate Straight and everyone in the one lounge. There's already precident in calling it the 'ralphing room' or 'puking parlor"! I don't know how much of a "marketing" success this Northern Adventure is going to be. Right now I'd be more excited taking a trip on the Queen of Prince Rupert... and from what I've heard, I shouldn't get too excited about that either;)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 22, 2007 17:00:56 GMT -8
Import duties forgiven by Gov't of Canada: www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=e09e6a35-4fbd-4153-b4dd-f0e55a52f8ab&k=57700------------------- Federal Government gives B.C. Ferries $13-million break Catherine Rolfsen, Vancouver Sun Published: Friday, June 22, 2007 The federal government is giving B.C. Ferries a $13-million break in its purchase of a ship to replace the sunken Queen of the North. Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced today that the government will remit the millions in customs duties paid on the purchase of the MV Northern Adventure, which will be used to service the province's north coast. "By remitting these duties to BC Ferries, our government is recognizing the challenges faced by those living in northern B.C. following the ferry's sinking and the increased costs they would have shouldered to replace it," said Minister Flaherty in a press release. "The ferry services are essential if communities all along the northern coast are going to continue to grow and prosper." ---------------
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 22, 2007 18:51:01 GMT -8
"By remitting these duties to BC Ferries, our government is recognizing the challenges faced by those living in northern BC following the ferry's sinking and the increased costs they have shouldered to replace it."
What an unbelievable load of bull----.
Are northern residents going to get thirteen million dollars worth of reduced ferry fares? Are they going to get a rebate on their income taxes?
This has nothing to do with giving any sort of break to northerners. This is another nail in the coffin of Canadian ship building, and proof positive that the government intends to allow duty free ship importation into Canada.
I know that saying anything negative about Flensburger on this forum is like criticizing Santa, since they're building our shiny new ferries and giving us such nice pictures to look at, but the big European and Asian yards that everyone admires so much for their efficiency didn't get so big purely on merit- they had government aid along the way. Whatever small advantages Canadian yards may have had are clearly not going to be supported by government for long. What the hell. We can always sell the world coal and raw logs; who needs manufacturing.
Just when I thought I couldn't despise the Harper government any more than I already did....
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Post by WettCoast on Jun 22, 2007 19:20:05 GMT -8
Also demonstrates beyond any doubt that Gordon Campbell and Steven Harper are birds of a feather!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 22, 2007 20:09:28 GMT -8
I agree with Neil's commentary on the spin of this news story. When I read that quote from the story, I realised that the northerners' benefit is only in a very roundabout way: - the forgiveness of the duty reduces the capital cost of the ship. - the lower cost of the ship results in a lower depreciation expense each year on the ship. - For BC Ferries financial statements, ships are depreciated over 40 years. This means that the $13 million cost reduction translates into an expense saving of $325,000 per year. - This means the Northern Service costs would be lower by $325,000 per year, because of this duty-forgiveness. - Lower costs, mean that revenues can be lowered too...all other things being equal. This is on the assumption that fares are set to recover expenses. So that's the in-a-vacuum theory. Will fares be lowered because the northern-service's annual expenses are decreasing by $325,000 per year? I'm pretty sure that something else will come up, to keep fare from decreasing..... --------------------- Re the Flesnsberger comment, I was just commenting something similar to a colleague today. I explained that the ferries that we're getting from Flensberger are the "best in the world".....but that the reason that Flensberger has this "advantage" is because their yard/industry is heavily subsidized. So, we need to keep 2 issues clear & separate: 1) Flensberger is excellent at what they do, and this will result in BC getting some excellent ships. 2) One of the reasons that Flensberger has a reputation for excellence, is that the Gov'ts in Germany have allowed them the "various advantages" needed for them to succeed in a world market. If our Federal/Provincial Gov'ts wanted BC to have a similar competitive edge in similar ferry shipbuilding, we'd need the same "tax/subsidy advantages" given to our local shipyards. (so does that mean that free-market advantage is somehow linked to Government involvement? )
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Post by hergfest on Jun 22, 2007 21:58:23 GMT -8
I agree with forgiving the the import duty on the NorAd. It was the best option BC Ferries had at the time. I don't agree with forgiving the duties on the four new boats being built in Germany as BC Ferries had a choice in the matter.
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Mirrlees
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Post by Mirrlees on Jun 22, 2007 22:12:23 GMT -8
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Post by Dane on Jun 22, 2007 22:19:09 GMT -8
I have faith. The Navy is about to start releasing some billion dollar contracts, and there is still some minor BC Ferry work occuring on our Coast. It could be the end, but let's hope it is not.
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Post by kylefossett on Jun 23, 2007 11:47:58 GMT -8
so we are in a hurry for a vessel for the northern run because of the tragedy of the queen of the north. when they find a vessel we snoopy the dog because it was not built in bc, we snoopy the dog again because the feds are refunding $13 million in import taxes. if we had of decided to build a vessel here we would be waiting a couple of years and then we would be bitching about that. what are we to do. we needed the vessel. if one could have been built here in bc in less then a year then i am sure it would have happened. by the way talking to people i know in the shipbuilding business they are saying that it is not hurting on the coast. they may not be building big mega projects like ferries but they are steady with work
snoopy the dog was not my choice in words. replace those words with slang for a female dog and it may sound better
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 23, 2007 15:21:24 GMT -8
Kyle: Nobody was suggesting that we go without a replacement ship for two years so one could be built here. The point was in regard to protecting what's left of the Canadian ship building industry by enforcing, consistently, the import duty.
Also, when our ship building sector has shrunk as much as it has since the '60s, saying that the firms who remain are "steady with work" isn't saying much. The big European and Asian yards are also probably "steady with work"; you tell me which economies get the greater benefit- theirs, with all the newbuilds, or ours, with the leftovers and the refit work.
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Post by WettCoast on Jun 23, 2007 16:58:36 GMT -8
so we are in a hurry for a vessel for the northern run because of the tragedy of the queen of the north. when they find a vessel we snoopy the dog because it was not built in BC, we snoopy the dog again because the feds are refunding $13 million in import taxes. if we had of decided to build a vessel here we would be waiting a couple of years and then we would be bitching about that. what are we to do. we needed the vessel. if one could have been built here in BC in less then a year then i am sure it would have happened. by the way talking to people i know in the shipbuilding business they are saying that it is not hurting on the coast. they may not be building big mega projects like ferries but they are steady with work snoopy the dog was not my choice in words. replace those words with slang for a female dog and it may sound better Sorry Kyle, but do you not think chartering could have been a viable option while new vessels were custom built for our coast? They possibly could have had a charter vessel in place last summer. One vessel that was available at that time was the Scotia Prince and it could have replaced the QotN for a few years while a new vessel was under construction. I do not buy the line that they had no option but to take the Sonia. And it really is looking as though they got a real lemon in the process too!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 23, 2007 17:11:23 GMT -8
For those keeping track of the various stages of "lemon allegations": - Stage 1: The "Pre-service stage" had member 'YVR' lamenting the Sonia, and pointing out items of concern. - Stage 2: The "Early service stage" had member 'Wet Coast Kid' take the Sonia to/from QCI, and comment on amenities lacking. - Stage 2: The "Few months after stage" had members 'Scott Evil' and 'Karl Hilzinger' take a trip with no toilet-flushing for 6 hours. - The next stage of interest for me, is the summer-2008, to see what's been changed/added/fixed on Sonia, after her first "scheduled" refit. That will be the next important testing to see how sour the lemon actually might be. - For my family, it's "my" turn to choose summer-vacation for 2008, and I'm passing on the Sonia ferry trip. Instead, I'm waiting for summer-2010, to do the inside passage on Chiang Kai-shek's ship that should be in-service by then..... -------------------- If you've made it this far into my post, I leave you this gift: Perhaps, she when she is at Deas, she can be known as the "LuLu Lemon". ....happily still bringing the Dennis-Miller-Factor to this board....
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Post by Dane on Jun 23, 2007 17:45:10 GMT -8
Probably also important to keep in mind few lemon allagations have been substantiated as real long term issues. Things did happen should not have happened, but they have not continued to happen.
I direct your attention to the PA, and the toilets. Both happened once.
Furthermore other allegations were weakly based.
I draw your attention to the long discussion about how there was rust on the ship after her trans-Atalantic journey, and that there were some bent railings. I don't remember who posted that but they obviously haven't sailed on many of BC's ferries.
Many also posted that the vessel was running late several times.
I draw your attention to reality, and that BCF's Northern services frequently behind schedule, and even more so in the non-summer periods.
Lastly, some claims were not related to whether the ship was a lemon or not.
I direct your attention to the "lack of ammenities." This has nothing to do technical aspects of the vessel. There may be issues with how BC Ferries marketted it, but directing criticisms of marteketing to the NorAd is silly.
--
Someone wisely posted recently that "bad news sells," and perhaps members should reflect on this and ask if they're judging too quickly. Most BC Ferries have had substantial operational issues when launched into service, and in many respects the NorAd is doing much better than most. The unfortunate part is the other new BC Ferries haven't had as an immediate need to go into service, therefore when they were pulled from service/restricted the effects were not as great.
You want a lemon, look at the Skeena Queen.
--
I just had another thought. These topics remind me of another transportation related story between Canada and Europe. Via Rail Canada bought some "Night Star" European overnight equipment from the UK in the early 2000s. Most cars had not been built, and those that had required substantial interior redesign to meet Canadian standards. As the cars came into service in the East of Canada they had problems with freezing up in the ice, their digital displays were not always working and there were few of the expected frills of having European equipment. People cried out that this was a poor use of money, and that Via would have been much better served buying new rail cars.
Flash forward to 2007 and all of these issues have been resolved. The cars don't freeze up, were rebuilt at something like 25% of the cost of new cars, and in Fiscal '06 had the highest reliability rating of any piece of equipment in the fleet.
If you need yet another similar case look at the VICTORIA class subs in Canada's Navy. Global paints them to be evil wastes of money, however they are now operating very reliably with no operational issues to speak of (other than lack of crews, but that's another issue all together!)
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Post by Dane on Jun 23, 2007 17:58:27 GMT -8
Made an error.... corrected by the good Flugel Horn
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 23, 2007 18:26:54 GMT -8
www.scotiaprince.com/There's an environmental report on that page that shows why the Scotia Prince is unfit for BC Ferries. Many expensive issues must be addressed. Can you please specify where the enviro-problem re the ship itself is mentioned. I read the story on the page called "Our Business Destroyed", and it was re the terminal facility in Portland Maine, not re the ship itself. Is there also a problem with the ship?
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Post by Dane on Jun 23, 2007 18:46:00 GMT -8
No, I was confused.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 23, 2007 22:44:14 GMT -8
If I might suggest the media and political reaction had they hired the Scotia Prince....
BC Ferries has gone cheap, and compromised the safety of it's passengers by chartering a dilapidated 35 year old vessel with the same hull structure as the vessel it's replacing, which of course sunk like a rock when it hit Gil Island. Now they're wasting money making expensive alterations to adapt a ship which will only be in service for two years...
WetCoastKid is right; they could have chartered for a couple of years, but I don't think any of us really has a handle on the suitability of any particular ship which might have been available, or the cost benefits of chartering (and probably altering) and building as well. In any case, chances are they would never have ended up building here.
Isn't it still pretty early to be pronouncing the NA a lemon, four months into service?
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Post by WettCoast on Jun 24, 2007 6:53:03 GMT -8
BC Ferries has gone cheap, and compromised the safety of it's passengers by chartering a dilapidated 35 year old vessel with the same hull structure as the vessel it's replacing, which of course sunk like a rock when it hit Gil Island. Now they're wasting money making expensive alterations to adapt a ship which will only be in service for two years... I do not know a lot about the Scotia Prince other than that it was available, about 5 years younger than the QotN, and it is of two compartment stability design. That is because when it was stretched the the hull stability design was upgraded too. Its bow and stern loading appear to be almost identical to that of the QotN, so no expensive terminal modifications would have been needed. As for being dilapidated? Was the QotN dilapidated? Also, as most people on this forum know, the damage sustained by the QotN was such that had it been of the latest 3 compartment design it would also have sunk like a rock, taking a little longer, perhaps. Lets not forget that chartering a vessel like the Scotia Prince could have restored two vessel service to the North Coast last summer. I will comment further on the NorAd - Sonia later in response to some of Dane's comments.
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Jun 24, 2007 9:39:12 GMT -8
Another viewpoint from south of the border.
The ex-Sonja is a one-off vessel to BC Ferries. The vessel is unique in design and construction.
It is going to take time for BC Ferries to iron-out all of the bugs that she is going to have.
Just how good was her maintenence and upkeep over in Europe? I'm sure alot of what is going on now is due time in service since she was launched.
Look at WSF when they built the Issaquah-class boats in the late 70's/ early 80's. Those were brand new vessels and had constant problems for years. They finally worked the problems out through near total rebuilds and that class is now probably the most versatile and reliable in their fleet.
It is going to take time for BC Ferries to get her in "ship-shape", but they will.
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Post by Dane on Jun 24, 2007 11:43:03 GMT -8
Quick, I catch the 11am Spirit of British Columbai sailing tomorrow and then I am away for two months! ;D
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 24, 2007 12:11:58 GMT -8
WetCoastKid: Thanks for the correction on my mistaken hull design remark. I still think that the media and other quarters would have been all over BC Ferries for hiring such an old vessel- every rusty railing or other sign of wear would have been played up- and no doubt there would have been substantial alterations required, who knows where, before the ship could provide seamless service. I still think we need to give the Northern Adventure a year or two before we can accurately assess the wisdom of the purchase, given that we just do not have the necessary inside information on the Scotia Prince's, or any other possible replacement's , suitability.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 24, 2007 13:30:12 GMT -8
Isn't it still pretty early to be pronouncing the NA a lemon, four months into service? I am interested in seeing how the NorAd performs in summer-2008, as that will be a "Fair test" for her. Hopefully her winter-2007/08 refit will be well-planned in advance, and will be successful in addressing any 2007 problems and in adding new amenities. Does anyone know if the Nor-Ad's off-season lay-off will be as long as the Queen of the North's were? ie. Will the QPR be the main winter-ship again in winter 2007/08? A long "Queen of the North" type layoff & refit might just be what the NorAd needs, come October 2007.
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