Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 10, 2017 21:03:40 GMT -8
As the ex- Queen of Nanaimo sails westward in the strait of Juan de Fuca, leaving Canadian waters forever in a short while, I'm feeling more wistful than with the other two departures. It has more of an impact.
Queen of Prince Rupert was a vessel I only rode twice, although I really liked her looks, and respected her long service to our north coast, and the fact that BC shipworkers built her.
The Queen of Chilliwack was an ugly Norwegian scow, unsuited to every route she ever served.
Queen of Nanaimo was a vessel many of us rode countless times, on her original Nanaimo route, or through the never boring Active Pass, amongst the Gulf Islands on route nine. So many beautiful voyages, whale shows... even the burgers. So often, the 'Nanaimo was an easily accessible ticket to a great day on the water, in one of the nicest parts of our province.
I really dislike the disparity between seafaring nations, where a sheltered waters vessel is seen as suitable for the open ocean in a nation that can't afford something better and safer. But that aside... I wish the Lomaiviti Princess 5 a safe passage to Fiji- particularly with the weather forecast, and a safe and productive twilight career in her new home.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 10, 2017 23:01:56 GMT -8
Well past Port Renfrew now, and ready to turn southwest into the open Pacific... facing the open ocean for the first time at the age of 52. Looks like calm sailing at the moment, but weather models predict more of a challenge early tomorrow afternoon.
She's on the high seas. I wonder what Phil Spaulding would be thinking.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 10, 2017 23:47:47 GMT -8
Well past Port Renfrew now, and ready to turn southwest into the open Pacific... facing the open ocean for the first time at the age of 52. Looks like calm sailing at the moment, but weather models predict more of a challenge early tomorrow afternoon. She's on the high seas. I wonder what Phil Spaulding would be thinking. This departure marks the fifth of the seven "V-Class" ships to brave the open Pacific. VICTORIA, ESQUIMALT, VANCOUVER, SAANICH, and now NANAIMO.
I was quite surprised to see the LP5 on the BigWaveDave Dallas Road cam. I would have thought she would have turned directly to Race Rocks after dropping off her pilot. Instead, she went west a bit before turning south. Thanks to BigWaveDave for this image.
The Race Rocks cam wasn't in good focus this evening. Plus, the interior lights of the LP5 were very bright. This was her between Race Rocks and Port Angeles.
I watched her on this camera continuously until she disappeared in the horizon.
Last sighting of the LOMAIVITI PRINCESS V (QUEEN OF NANAIMO) on, most likely, any webcams of the continents of the Americas. It would be only a few seconds later when she vanished from this camera's view.
She has exited the Juan De Fuca Strait and is out on the Pacific Ocean. No need to show a map on this posting.
Best wishes to this ship and her crew as they brave the mighty Pacific Ocean.
Again, we thank BigWaveDave and Race Rocks for providing these images on this posting.
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Post by nannyman on Nov 11, 2017 9:40:39 GMT -8
As the ex- Queen of Nanaimo sails westward in the strait of Juan de Fuca, leaving Canadian waters forever in a short while, I'm feeling more wistful than with the other two departures. It has more of an impact. Queen of Nanaimo was a vessel many of us rode countless times, on her original Nanaimo route, or through the never boring Active Pass, amongst the Gulf Islands on route nine. So many beautiful voyages, whale shows... even the burgers. So often, the ' Nanaimo was an easily accessible ticket to a great day on the water, in one of the nicest parts of our province. Feel I'm going through mourning of a long time friend. Not to clog this thread, but if others wish to share their feelings, memories and stories of the ol'girl; you may do so at: www.queenofnanaimo.com/ (bottom of home page) Please put in your comments, first name or BCFPB name and city. I'll create a page later show casing all your memories. Thanks! -Ryan
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 11, 2017 22:24:27 GMT -8
Is there a site where one can track the voyage across the Pacific? What I can see on Marine Traffic doesn't name vessels off the coast.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 11, 2017 23:31:17 GMT -8
Is there a site where one can track the voyage across the Pacific? What I can see on Marine Traffic doesn't name vessels off the coast. The blip on the left side of this image may be her, based on the initial course set after leaving the VTS traffic lanes and the Juan De Fuca Strait. I estimate she's more than 200 miles off the Oregon coast tonight, 11 Nov 2017, (if that blip is hers). I've been watching that for several hours this evening (and doing other things besides watching my comp screen, of course).
I used a similar (Sat-ais) blip of the SPIRIT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA when she crossed the Atlantic. Similar course after punching through the outer Caribbean islands all the way to Tenerife.
It all depends on the signals sent up to space (and if the sats can actually receive them) and the zoom level on MT (zoom out and the blip may disappear). The blips may not be seen at times.
It's a long trip to Suva for the ship and her crew. Nothing around her but sea water, a few ships, marine life, clouds, sun, stars, airliner contrails, have I missed anything besides the orbiting space station?
Meanwhile, I had my scanner set at 156.250 yesterday as the LP5 neared Race Rocks. I did hear Seattle Traffic answer her changeover call (from 156.550 and Victoria Traffic), but they changed transmitter, which was out of my range, for the rest of the conversation.
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Post by Scott on Nov 12, 2017 23:05:33 GMT -8
Ni sa moce! Fair winds and following seas, Queen of Nanaimo...
November 10, 2017The following images posted by this account are copyright © S.A. ~ Unauthorized use is prohibited. Lomaiviti Princess V at Berth 1, FMU. by Scott, on Flickr BC Ferries - Queen of Burnaby, Northern Adventure, Queen of Alberni, Salish Eagle and Lomaiviti Princess V at FMU. by Scott, on Flickr Lomaiviti Princess V away from Berth 1, FMU. by Scott, on Flickr Lomaiviti Princess V sails southbound in the Fraser River. by Scott, on Flickr Lomaiviti Princess V sails southbound in the Fraser River. by Scott, on Flickr Lomaiviti Princess V sails southbound in the Fraser River. by Scott, on Flickr Lomaiviti Princess V sails southbound in the Fraser River. by Scott, on Flickr
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 12, 2017 23:29:48 GMT -8
Great pics, Scott!
Meanwhile, the blip of interest made a course change late today (12 Nov 2017). It was showing more of a southwesterly course until the Oregon/California state line. Now, the blip shows more of a 190 degree (or so) true heading. Perhaps to avoid some storm activity as a forum mate was predicting earlier.
The MT blip is west of Eureka at the time of this posting.
The next planned blip report would be off Hawaii (if visible on MT's site).
EDIT (14 NOV 2017): The blip is variable in direction. Today it's more directed towards the eastern part of Hawaii. It's also about a thousand miles or so west of Los Angeles this afternoon.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 13, 2017 8:18:41 GMT -8
The breadth of history in Scott's photo reminds me of a similar historical gem from Frank Clapp: - FMU (Deas) often is a visual historical sampler of the changing fleet. Queen of Alberni is the constant, sort of.
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Post by mybidness459 on Nov 13, 2017 17:10:34 GMT -8
Looking at the clip of the then Smaller Queen of Alberni right beside Queen of the North, I think of May 1993 when I sailed on both ships on the same day. I took the Alberni from Departure Bay, at 05:15 am and took the ex Stena Danica from Tsawwassen to Port Hardy a few hours later.
Now how many of us on this forum can claim that.( On the same day).
Yes, times are a changing, ships come and go, but the one thing is the same, Deas dock is still doing what it was intended, and that is providing the ships some R&R from the rigors of daily life and the salty ocean.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 18, 2017 8:45:52 GMT -8
The blip of interest is now passing the big island of Hawaii this morning. You can time stamp this at 0800PST on 18 Nov 2017. Now about half way to Fiji.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 19, 2017 20:02:16 GMT -8
The blip is distancing itself nicely away from the Hawaiian Islands. 1900PST, 19 Nov 2017. Fiji is in the green circle. Next planned update will be Samoa. Then, lastly, at Suva.
It would be neat to have an AM transistor radio on board. Searching for distant radio stations would be interesting on the high seas.
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Post by Starsteward on Nov 21, 2017 11:15:36 GMT -8
I doubt that radio broadcasts with any more power today than they did many years ago when I spent 18 months with E.B. Aabys' Rederi, Oslo aboard the M.S. Faro doing a jaunt from the BC coast to Asia, South Asia, Africa around the Cape to Europe and back to the East coast of Canada, the Port of Montreal being the jump-off point and a quick trip west just in time to finish the 1970 Summer season on the 'Queen of Prince Rupert'. I had a Sony AM-FM cassette machine at the time and am ever thankful I took my Sony with me. Travelling North-West on the Pacific in December isn't the best mood-setting medium to be listening to radio or music tapes as the first order of the day was dealing with the lovely 'mal de mere' for the first few days then getting the old noggin leveled out and tuned into witnessing huge white-water waves crashing up against our superstructure. A bit of Radio Japan was discernable off and on as we traversed the North Pacific past the Aleutian Islands onward to continental Asia....Tokyo in time for Christmas. American Armed Forces Radio came in loud and clear as we neared Japan, and yes a glut of college football games and world news with a definite Yankee 'slant'. I have a tape of Radio Singapore, Sunday afternoon music programming that I recorded during our stop in Singapore and later, Port Swettenham. I played that tape last Sunday just for the heck of it and the quality was still in tact and the easy listening sounds evoked clear memories and sensory triggers of orchids and other tropical beauties. South African radio was a mish-mash of music reflecting the 'Apartheid' slant in the country and a two-day finale-avalanche of the international cricket match between South Africa and Australia. Not many televisions in South Africa in the early '70's but the cricket match was on EVERY radio owned by a human being it seemed. The hype for this match was bigger than the Stanley Cup, Grey Cup and Super Bowl combined. Yup, they are some cricket crazy in that part of the world. As we '12-knotted' our way Northward up the West coast of Africa, my Sony, now working real well on F.M. picked up a smorgasbord of English classical music, and heaven only knows what 'Tribal' beats assailed my ears but it was music. All this while suntan building, ten minutes at a time, a huge school of dolphins racing along our Port side, providing the athletic entertainment, almost like they were timing their jumps with the soft, muffled 'thump-thump' of our diesel engines. Offloading sections of our Dark Red Meranti Wood cargo throughout France, Belgium and Holland was the 'drill' but leisure time radio entertainment was an avalanche of BBC Radio One, countless off-shore pirate radio stations pumping out everything from the Beatles, The Monkeys, Herman's Hermits and European artists I had no bloody clue who they were. Whilst undergoing a facelift and repairs in our Rotterdam dry-dock, I had shape-shifted from the catering department to deck department and quartermaster/watch-keeping duties for the trans-Atlantic in ballast voyage home to Canada. The last week of a very cold April was Rotterdam departure time as we slipped into the Maas River to wend our way westward towards the English Channel. As dawn broke and clarity between the river and the small towns that dotted the landscape came into focus, a living history lesson unfolded before me that nearly a half-century later can move me to tears. Village churches, public buildings, and countless private homes were flying the Red Maple Leaf of Canada in preparation for Remembrance Day, May 4th and Liberation Day on May 5th's observances. Some 7,600 Canadians paid the ultimate sacrifice in the liberation of the Netherlands. Prior to 1965 the people of the Netherlands flew our Red Ensign, the Maple Leaf ever since! The Dutch people have not, nor will not, ever forget. That day-long Maas River transit has definitely seared into my psyche a 'top five' life-experience, but at the time, this 'Rupert taught' quartermaster was managing to avoid steering 'S's whilst a craggy old Dutch river pilot provided a running commentary of piloting on the Maas, pausing intermittently to order course corrections. Each time someone entered the Bridge from the inner companionway, blasts of Radio Luxemburg interrupted trains of thought. Leaving the Continent in our wake, M.S. Faro bounced, bumped, rattled, and rolled for 5 days in a windy, sea-level foggy miserable world until Radio Newfoundland shot into the map room and officer's mess. The Newfie announcer had a mattress-thick accent that challenged this west-coaster's knowledge of English dialect. Thankfully the next days' offering was CBC Radio One from Halifax. The last two nights at sea, were so inhospitable that Captain Theissland, an 84 year old veteran of the seven seas, spent the entire night on the bridge, taking a couple of 10 minute 'cat-naps' on the settee in the map room. Someone had run the Maple Leaf from the foremast instead of it's regular spot above the bridge that strangely brought about a bright sunny day for our entrance into the older section of the Port of Montreal. Upon tie-up at 1400 hours, final cramming of 'stuff' into my two seaman's duffle-bags, yes wrap the old Sony radio/cassette machine real well for the jet flight home. From Powell River B.C., round the globe to Montreal PQ., a young lad, at the time naively unaware of many of life's perils, but sufficiently tutored by the deep sea veterans of the deck and catering departments of 'B' watch and to a lesser extent the more casual folks of 'A' watch, M.V. 'Queen of Prince Rupert had survived and prospered buoyed by the contents of his 2 sailor's duffle-bags, and that damn Sony AM/FM Cassette entertainment centre that he had almost opted to leave behind. The object of this lengthy narrative, I admit was precipitated as one of our learned members had wondered aloud that it might be neat to have an AM transistor radio on board searching for distant radio stations broadcasting over the high seas. I admit my bag of 'interesting' is nearly 50 years removed from what an adventurer might hear today, however adding a 'record' function to any device you take on your journey will allow you to capture moments in history, often forgotten or overlooked that may one day emerge as 'treasures' as one's journey transits toward one's "Sunset".
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Post by Balfour on Nov 21, 2017 12:19:39 GMT -8
Starsteward, That sounds like an incredible, once in a lifetime experience for many of us. I very much enjoyed reading that. Thanks for sharing your story
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 22, 2017 16:31:24 GMT -8
But that horse has bolted, and BC Ferries has raked in $0.50 profit on the sale to Goundar ... ...which has saved millions of dollars in maintenance, moorage and upkeep towards a vessel that would not have been used. Scott, quite a sum of money was spent to make the Nanaimo/LP V ready to sail across the Pacific. Was some, perhaps all, of that money BC Ferries' money, or was it all Goundar's money? How much money did BC Ferries actually realize on the sale after expenses were paid? If BC Ferries paid a substantial portion of the costs then in the end they will have made next to nothing on the sale. The money spent could have benefited route 9 users back in the summer, and could continue to benefit the travelling public in coastal BC as a reserve vessel during this two year period when one or the other of their two largest vessels are unavailable for extended periods due to the Polish upgrades.
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Post by Scott on Nov 23, 2017 1:35:08 GMT -8
Was some, perhaps all, of that money BC Ferries' money, or was it all Goundar's money? How much money did BC Ferries actually realize on the sale after expenses were paid? If BC Ferries paid a substantial portion of the costs then in the end they will have made next to nothing on the sale. You know this is confidential information between the buyer and seller. It does not concern you or I, nor does it have anything to do with the point I raised. The money spent could have benefited route 9 users back in the summer, and could continue to benefit the travelling public in coastal BC as a reserve vessel during this two year period when one or the other of their two largest vessels are unavailable for extended periods due to the Polish upgrades. Repairs attempted while she was laid-up at Tsawwassen's Berth 2 were unsuccessful. As dry dock space cannot always be made available instantaneously, I don't see how throwing money at her in the summer would have fixed the issue when VDD and EGD were unavailable. Again, to hold on to the Nanaimo would cost millions of dollars in maintenance, moorage and upkeep and she would not have been used, even if a major vessel broke down. Don't get me wrong, I miss the Queen of Nanaimo immensely and I will always be sad that she left Route 9 so unceremoniously. However, we've lived through the Coquitlam, Cowichan, Oak Bay, Surrey and Alberni MLU's (in order), as well as the New West's asset betterment. Sorry, but the sky is not falling because the SoBC is MLU'd this year and the SoVI next year.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 23, 2017 11:05:35 GMT -8
You know this is confidential information between the buyer and seller. It does not concern you or I, nor does it have anything to do with the point I raised. If this was about Seaspan or any other true private company selling off a vessel I would agree with you. But BC Ferries is a publicly owned entity that is supposed to serve the transportation needs of British Columbians first & foremost. It is my concern and I think 'right' to know how much was spent to complete the sale, and if they actually realized any profit at all. I suspect that the best part of a million dollars was spent to permit the Nanaimo to sail across the Pacific to Fiji. One would hope that the money was all Goundar's. If, however, it was BC Ferries money than it would have been better spent to benefit the BC travelling public by keeping the Nanaimo around for 'contingency' reasons during the two year period where they are down one Spirit class vessel for very extended periods.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 23, 2017 11:06:29 GMT -8
Was some, perhaps all, of that money BC Ferries' money, or was it all Goundar's money? How much money did BC Ferries actually realize on the sale after expenses were paid? If BC Ferries paid a substantial portion of the costs then in the end they will have made next to nothing on the sale. You know this is confidential information between the buyer and seller. It does not concern you or I, nor does it have anything to do with the point I raised. The money spent could have benefited route 9 users back in the summer, and could continue to benefit the travelling public in coastal BC as a reserve vessel during this two year period when one or the other of their two largest vessels are unavailable for extended periods due to the Polish upgrades. Repairs attempted while she was laid-up at Tsawwassen's Berth 2 were unsuccessful. As dry dock space cannot always be made available instantaneously, I don't see how throwing money at her in the summer would have fixed the issue when VDD and EGD were unavailable. Again, to hold on to the Nanaimo would cost millions of dollars in maintenance, moorage and upkeep and she would not have been used, even if a major vessel broke down. Don't get me wrong, I miss the Queen of Nanaimo immensely and I will always be sad that she left Route 9 so unceremoniously. However, we've lived through the Coquitlam, Cowichan, Oak Bay, Surrey and Alberni MLU's (in order), as well as the New West's asset betterment. Sorry, but the sky is not falling because the SoBC is MLU'd this year and the SoVI next year. The Fiji Sun reported that Goundar had 'invested' $2.5 million U.S. in the ex-' Nanaimo. I don't know how precise their English or their reporting is, but one would think that if the figure referred just to the purchase price, it would have been stated as such. So I'm thinking that the $2.5 million may also include extensive work to get her ready to sail to Fiji. If BC Ferries got $2.5 million American on the sale, they would have made out like bandits, given what old ferries usually go for.
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Post by northwesterner on Nov 23, 2017 12:28:40 GMT -8
Again, to hold on to the Nanaimo would cost millions of dollars in maintenance, moorage and upkeep and she would not have been used, even if a major vessel broke down. Disagree here, Scott . Personally, I believe that selling Queen of Nanaimo when a buyer who was willing to pay (we presume) above scrap value was looking to buy was the right move. Especially given the cost and time of the repairs to get her seaworthy again... But at the same time, one shouldn't let BCF's consistent, long term lack of contingency planning off the hook. There is a case to be made that BCF needs a reasonably sized vessel that can be used in case of a catastrophic failure on one of the major routes. Your statement above that "she would not have been used" is based upon, what I view as BCF's continued ability to find reasons not to do things. Why wouldn't she be used: 1) No cross training of crew domiciles across vessels in the fleet. 2) A time consuming and costly "dock fitting" process that apparently is now required every time a vessel serves on its non-home routes. 3) An inability to keep major vessels without an assignment tied up at Deas in a state of readiness ... reason frequently mention is due to the lack of assignment of an engineering crew to do so. All of the above issues are based on institutional decisions inside BCF. These all could be changed and addressed to allow for a more nimble fleet, and in the case of a vessel like Queen of Nanaimo, allow a large vessel to be available, to serve anywhere, in case of a major break down. Over the last five years (or more) we've seen multiple times where BCF just flat out doesn't provide service because they can't do a multi-route vessel shuffle to cover for a disabled vessel. They can't or won't do those shuffles because of those above reasons. Rather than identify this as a problem that prevents them for serving their customers and work to solve these issues, they'd rather just use them as reasons why they can't do something different. Its quite discouraging. Compared with WSF, BCF has far fewer inservice failures over the course of a service year. But they have next to no ability to recover from a failure, due to these ingrained structural polices above. WSF has put together documents outlining the minimum expected vessel capacity on a route, and how to recover from a failure on any route, at any time. The crews are all cross trained on the entire fleet, and the vessels fit into any berth. While sometimes a failure happens and there isn't a backup available (see the 2-boat service at FVS for way too much of the last year) at least those issues are "known knowns" as they work through vessel maintenance schedules. BCF could vastly approve in this area, but so far, they seem totally uninterested in doing so.
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Post by mybidness459 on Nov 23, 2017 16:06:08 GMT -8
And how much is it Costing BC Ferries to Move the Coastal Inspiration and Coquitlam around? They HAVE to pay to have a Skeleton Crew to Sail the ship (CI) From Duke Point Not to mention the cost of the fuel they use, At the Same time or before the first sailing at 5:15am the Coquitlam has to be moved from DB-Duke PT. BTW I just checked the Duke point web cam and looks to be some rigs left over from the 3:15.
Now, Its a complete waste of Crew's time, Company money moving ships around when the Coquitlam Should have a Swarz Bay Crew Trained on her, and Keep her down south untill Renaissance returns.
But hey, what do I know? I am not planing on using the ferries anytime soon, so it does not affect me If a trucker has to wait 2 or more hours at either Tsawwassen or Duke Point because they Now Have not just one, but 2 Smaller Overheight capacity ships on the same route, at the same time then normal. BCF has to get thier act together.
Nanaimo Could have been used out of Swartz Bay to Tsawwassen or Tsawwassen to Duke Point, Dedicated to Commercial traffic.
Another point to consider, Seaspan Ferries can not carry many passengers anyway. So these truckers have no choice. OH, by the way in regards to Commercial traffic, someone has to pay thier wages as they just sit at the terminals. So the Spin of ramifications effect much more than BC Ferries.
Mcdonald's in Parksville For example would have to pay extra wages to staff members to keep them on Shift extra 2 or so hours waiting for thier shipment stuck in the Pre-board lanes at Tsawwassen.
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Post by minstrel on Nov 23, 2017 16:23:05 GMT -8
Lomaiviti Princess (EX Queen of Nanaimo) Seems to have crossed the international date line and the Equator, now on the last leg of her voyage to a new home. dosn't seem like over 50 years ago I worked at VMD when we laid the Keel at the Yard on Dallas Road.
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Post by Starsteward on Nov 23, 2017 16:33:09 GMT -8
Lomaiviti Princess (EX Queen of Nanaimo) Seems to have crossed the international date line and the Equator, now on the last leg of her voyage to a new home. dosn't seem like over 50 years ago I worked at VMD when we laid the Keel at the Yard on Dallas Road. Workers at VMD and Burrard should be proud of the way they turned out the Spaulding sisters in the early to mid '60's Over the course of their history they have shown themselves to be reliable and the old BC Ferries under government control and now the 'Slug' BCFS were fortunate to have ships like these built here at home. All the newer additions, including new-builds have presented various problems/issues that continue to disrupt sailing schedules.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 23, 2017 21:38:56 GMT -8
Lomaiviti Princess (EX Queen of Nanaimo) Seems to have crossed the international date line and the Equator, now on the last leg of her voyage to a new home. dosn't seem like over 50 years ago I worked at VMD when we laid the Keel at the Yard on Dallas Road. I think you meant MV LOMAIVITI PRINCESS V. LOMAIVITI PRINCESS (I) is the former MV QUEEN OF PRINCE RUPERT.
The blip has shown good progress since I've last posted its progress. The blip is now more than two thirds from Hawaii to Samoa, where my next illustrated posting is planned to be presented.
This blip may likely be confirmed as the LP5 with the ship's name and info shown upon arrival at Suva.
The blip did show a stoppage the other day. I guess the crew may have found a calm spot on the ocean enough to open the aft hatches and fished for their dinners. Image of the stoppage can be inserted upon request. It occurred about half way back between the current location and Hawaii. Just a thought.
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Post by minstrel on Nov 23, 2017 21:51:42 GMT -8
Thank you,I stand Corrected of Course I meant Loavitii Princess V, i omitted "V" by error, as it happens I also worked on building Lomavitti Princess 1 Ex Queen of Prince Rupert At VMD.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Nov 26, 2017 5:43:37 GMT -8
The blip of interest was passing the islands of Samoa at 0500PST, 26 Nov 2017.
I estimate that the distance the blip has to reach Suva is about five hundred or six hundred miles now from the time this posting was entered.
If they have an AM transistor radio on board, they could be listening to Samoan and Fijian stations at this time (I find it's best to get distant AM stations at night, which they're in right now).
My last planned set (or sets) of position report(s) is when the blip arrives in Suva. By then, we should have confirmation that this is the LOMAIVITI PRINCESS V. At that time, we'll start surfing the Fiji news sources.
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