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Post by futureferrydriver on Aug 4, 2017 10:54:11 GMT -8
I think it's safe to say that we can all agree there is no easy solution... however since I can't sleep since it's way to warm in my house tonight I decided to do some brain storming and this is the best I could come up with... -Tie up the Queen of New West in Berth 1 or 2 at Tsawwassen and use her as a third boat on Route 30 -Coastal Renaissance relocates to Tsawwassen and is used as the 4th boat on Route 1 -Queen of Cowichan becomes primary Route 2 Departure Bay vessel -Queen of Coquitlam relocates to Departure Bay to be 3rd boat on route 2. HOWEVER Horseshoe Bay-Langdale still borrows her to do the 5:50pm commuter sailing -Bowen Queen is based out of Langdale and operates as 2nd boat on Horseshoe Bay-Langdale and Bowen Island runs (help with afternoon traffic and hopefully improve the Capilano's on time performance) thoughts??? anyone have a better idea? As mentioned I do think the Bowen Queen would be way too small for route 3 summers, but I like the idea of supplementing the Queen of Surrey with a smaller vessel during the shoulder seasons. We see it every year in late spring and early fall; the traffic isn't quite enough to justify the Coq but it's too much for the Surrey to handle. Unfortunately I don't think taking one of the C's from route 3 in the summer is an option, and route 2 barely gets by with 3 boats so taking the Renaissance isn't really an option. I actually think route 1 is the only major route which isn't ridiculously over capacity in the summer. One thought I had was perhaps route 1 and 30 sharing the Queen of New West, she could do 2 round trips on each route a day, but I think the crew would need to work 9 hour shifts for that which isn't ideal. Of course this would take away 2 round trips a day from route 1 which would probably make route 1 over capacity. Ultimately my main point is that all of BCF's major routes will continue to suffer from capacity issues until the fleet is updated.
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Post by bigcountry on Aug 4, 2017 12:05:50 GMT -8
I think it's safe to say that we can all agree there is no easy solution... however since I can't sleep since it's way to warm in my house tonight I decided to do some brain storming and this is the best I could come up with... -Tie up the Queen of New West in Berth 1 or 2 at Tsawwassen and use her as a third boat on Route 30 -Coastal Renaissance relocates to Tsawwassen and is used as the 4th boat on Route 1 -Queen of Cowichan becomes primary Route 2 Departure Bay vessel -Queen of Coquitlam relocates to Departure Bay to be 3rd boat on route 2. HOWEVER Horseshoe Bay-Langdale still borrows her to do the 5:50pm commuter sailing -Bowen Queen is based out of Langdale and operates as 2nd boat on Horseshoe Bay-Langdale and Bowen Island runs (help with afternoon traffic and hopefully improve the Capilano's on time performance) thoughts??? anyone have a better idea? As mentioned I do think the Bowen Queen would be way too small for route 3 summers, but I like the idea of supplementing the Queen of Surrey with a smaller vessel during the shoulder seasons. We see it every year in late spring and early fall; the traffic isn't quite enough to justify the Coq but it's too much for the Surrey to handle. Unfortunately I don't think taking one of the C's from route 3 in the summer is an option, and route 2 barely gets by with 3 boats so taking the Renaissance isn't really an option. I actually think route 1 is the only major route which isn't ridiculously over capacity in the summer. One thought I had was perhaps route 1 and 30 sharing the Queen of New West, she could do 2 round trips on each route a day, but I think the crew would need to work 9 hour shifts for that which isn't ideal. Of course this would take away 2 round trips a day from route 1 which would probably make route 1 over capacity. Ultimately my main point is that all of BCF's major routes will continue to suffer from capacity issues until the fleet is updated. And as you say that Route 1 has a 4 sailing wait lol
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Post by Nickfro on Aug 4, 2017 12:12:14 GMT -8
It is becoming increasingly apparent that if you want to travel on Route 30, you need to make a reservation in order to avoid lengthy time spent at Tsawwassen. Currently the 545pm sailing is 83% full, and the 845pm sailing is reporting at 88% full which leaves only 12% deck space for stand-by vehicles. It's just not worth the dice roll to take Route 30 in stand-by form, making Route 2 the only logical choice. I actually think route 1 is the only major route which isn't ridiculously over capacity in the summer. One thought I had was perhaps route 1 and 30 sharing the Queen of New West, she could do 2 round trips on each route a day, but I think the crew would need to work 9 hour shifts for that which isn't ideal. Of course this would take away 2 round trips a day from route 1 which would probably make route 1 over capacity. Route 1 is currently operating with a 4 sailing wait out of Tsawwassen. They need 4 boats. Route 3 would probably survive well with a Salish Class vessel as their #2 boat which would allow the Coquitlam to serve elsewhere. Too bad it would require another capital expenditure to happen since any such vessel re-deployment would impact another route negatively.
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Post by bainbridgeguy on Aug 4, 2017 13:04:57 GMT -8
Here's what I think the best option for Summer deployment would be (given the current major fleet which we have today):
Route 1: SOBC SOVI C-Celebration QONW
Route 2: Queen Of Oak Bay Queen Of Cowichan Queen Of Coquitlam
Route 3: Queen Of Surrey Queen Of Alberni
Route 30: C- Rennisance C- Insparation
Route 1 cannot afford to loose ANY of its current capacity. Given that the Coquitlam can hold 6 more cars than the C- Rennisance according to BCF's website, I think they could survive having 3 original C's on route 2 without much fuss. Also, with the Surrey and Coquitlam, route 3 rarely seems to have more than a one boat wait, and practically if they ran 4-5 round trips daily with the Alberni as a second boat there would be hardly and major impacts on vechicle traffic, and probably even less overweight waits there than there are today. Finally, yes, as much of a foot passenger overkill as it will be, route 30 NEEDS at MINIMUM 2 Coastals during the busy summer season just so vechicles can be moved in a fairly timely manner. Although 2 boat waits will likely still occur, it should at least be a decent relief, especially for the many overheights who use that route on a daily basis.
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Post by Dane on Aug 4, 2017 13:07:29 GMT -8
The Coastals seem to take larger real-life loads than the C's. Besides putting a C on 30 reduces truck capacity which is generally what causes the waits in the first place.
I think given the anomalies of the current fleet ship distribution is about as good as it can get on the majors.
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Aug 4, 2017 13:39:36 GMT -8
I love these types of discussions, about ideas to improve service levels. So I'm going to add my two cents here:
About ten months ago, I drafted a plan for better fleet utilization during the summers:
There are some problems with it, I will admit, but realistically, with the existing vessels we have to play with, there is no perfect solution. However, I stand by this plan, and I do believe that if capacity is to be increased across the major routes with our existing fleet, this is the way to go. On a typical day under this plan: >Route 1 would enjoy a capacity increase of ~276 each direction each day, with the Surrey sailing 3 round trips in place of the New West. >Route 2 would enjoy a daily directional capacity increase of ~270, with the New West providing an additional daily round trip. >Route 30 would enjoy a daily directional capacity increase of ~540, with the New West providing two additional round trips. I do realize that, well these numbers do seem large at first glance, they are not huge compared to each routes' respective current daily capacities (~5,200 for R1, ~4,014 for R2, ~2,648 for R30,) However, they are increases, and increases that would likely be appreciated by many travelers, especially those on Route 30.
The biggest operational problems with this plan would be the New West's having to back out of HSB, and the Surrey having to transit Active Pass. However, while these are not ideal maneuvers, my understanding is that they are both doable. Aside from that, more crew would be needed out of Langdale, since there would be two full-time major vessels based out of there. But, other than that, all other major terminals maintain the same number of home-ported vessels with roughly the same operational hours.
Note to Mods: If there's a better place for this discussion, please do move it there...
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Aug 4, 2017 13:59:13 GMT -8
I love these types of discussions, about ideas to improve service levels. So I'm going to add my two cents here: About ten months ago, I drafted a plan for better fleet utilization during the summers: I absolutely disagree. These discussions are pointless, because people don't have the detailed knowledge about finances, crewing, and all sorts of operational and logistical issues that lead to boats being assigned where they are. And on top of that, BC Ferries isn't listening.
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Post by hwy19man on Aug 4, 2017 14:02:17 GMT -8
The Mill Bay-Brentwood Bay route from Brentwood Bay is full for the rest of the day.
Please be advised that due to significant traffic volumes, the MV Klitsa has reached vehicle capacity for the remainder of today’s sailings departing from Brentwood Bay. Travelers arriving at Brentwood Bay wishing to cross the Saanich Inlet may utilize Highway 1 as an alternative route. www.bcferries.com/bcfservicenotice?id=1073210I like how BCF mentions using the Trans-Canada Hwy option, good thing the extra lane is clear of pylons and cones.
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Post by hwy19man on Aug 4, 2017 14:06:20 GMT -8
It is becoming increasingly obvious that route 30 is way over capacity in the summer, there has been a possible wait (greater than 80% full) on the 10:45pm sailing from Tsawwassen tonight since about half past 2pm. I know they reserve a huge amount of the route 30 deck space, but I can't imagine being a standby showing up at 2:00 and being told I wouldn't get on until the 10:45, this is ridiculous and its only Thursday... Hopefully when the time comes to replace the C's and QoNW BC Ferries will be thinking about 3 boat service on route 30. An extra major over what the fleet has right now would certainly be very welcome! You beat me to it... I've been observing the daily loads, and I was going to say the same thing. Two and a half hours between sailings doesn't work anymore in summer. I suspect traffic on this route is growing faster than routes one or two, and overloads are chronic.
There was at least one summer when route thirty had eleven round trips, and it's now necessary to go back to that to properly serve the economy of Vancouver Island. At 1430h today, route 30 overheight traffic has maxed out its sailing from TSA. There are four waits and underheights have three waits, eight hours waiting for the 2245h sailing!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 4, 2017 14:07:12 GMT -8
A moderator's life is a thrill.
I've edited the Big Country quoted portions of 5 replies in this thread, removing the long vertical section of schedules from each quoted post.
Those who hate scrolling can thank me by buying me an "I'm Ravin' to be Salish" T-shirt.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 4, 2017 20:42:37 GMT -8
To do this they would need another large vessel which they don't currently have. Or do you see them reassigning a vessel currently serving on another route? That's the current problem. The summer(s) where route 30 had three boat service, I believe route two only had two. During many years of Liberal rule, the number of 'major' vessels has remained constant. There would have to be an injection of capital to change that. Actually, we are down one boat since that time. In 1994 there were 12 majors (2 Spirits, 5 C class & 5 V's with the QNWM). Today we have 11 vessels (5 C's, 1 V, 2 Spirits & 3 Coastals). They need a twelth major.
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Post by Starsteward on Aug 5, 2017 8:54:35 GMT -8
That's the current problem. The summer(s) where route 30 had three boat service, I believe route two only had two. During many years of Liberal rule, the number of 'major' vessels has remained constant. There would have to be an injection of capital to change that. Actually, we are down one boat since that time. In 1994 there were 12 majors (2 Spirits, 5 C class & 5 V's with the QNWM). Today we have 11 vessels (5 C's, 1 V, 2 Spirits & 3 Coastals). They need a twelth major. As I pen this response to 'WettCoast's' posting (..they need a twelth major), I bravely admit I may meet the same fate as Marie Antoinette, by suggesting BCF bite the bullet and throw some restoration dollars into keeping the 'Queen of Nanaimo' around for ?? years until additional vessels suitable for routes 1, 2, 3, and 30 materialize. Failure to meet the growing demands of the travelling public will do BCF serious damage. Let's not forget the upcoming MLU's for the Spirit class vessels. Can we be assured that MLU schedules will be met and not interfere with a busy Summer sailing schedule? And one thinks we have overload problems now?
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Post by hwy19man on Aug 5, 2017 13:54:15 GMT -8
Good news for route 3 as it has been getting busier during midday service on weekdays with one or two waits this summer. There will be extra sailings on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays.
Ferries said it’s adding the August sailings because, “midday traffic is on the rise and with many people travelling outside the busy Fridays and Sundays, BC Ferries wants to make the customer experience as smooth as possible.”
www.coastreporter.net/news/local-news/bc-ferries-announces-more-schedule-changes-1.21636302
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Post by arrrrmatey on Aug 10, 2017 11:35:45 GMT -8
Here's what I think the best option for Summer deployment would be (given the current major fleet which we have today): Route 1: SOBC SOVI C-Celebration QONW Route 2: Queen Of Oak Bay Queen Of Cowichan Queen Of Coquitlam Route 3: Queen Of Surrey Queen Of Alberni Route 30: C- Rennisance C- Insparation Route 1 cannot afford to loose ANY of its current capacity. Given that the Coquitlam can hold 6 more cars than the C- Rennisance according to BCF's website, I think they could survive having 3 original C's on route 2 without much fuss. Also, with the Surrey and Coquitlam, route 3 rarely seems to have more than a one boat wait, and practically if they ran 4-5 round trips daily with the Alberni as a second boat there would be hardly and major impacts on vechicle traffic, and probably even less overweight waits there than there are today. Finally, yes, as much of a foot passenger overkill as it will be, route 30 NEEDS at MINIMUM 2 Coastals during the busy summer season just so vechicles can be moved in a fairly timely manner. Although 2 boat waits will likely still occur, it should at least be a decent relief, especially for the many overheights who use that route on a daily basis. I agree with this and have given this some thought over the past few summers. Route 3 having 2 C's is overkill (speaking as someone who regularly uses the route) and therefore a smaller vessel could be ideal. If the Alberni was the #2 at Langdale she could, with 2 crews per day, provide up to 4 round trips on route 3 and 2 round trips on route 2 per day. I doubt that route 3 would suffer, and route 2 could benefit from increased capacity. Scheduling might be an issue for HSB, which already has berth congestion issues... I haven't tried to figure out how that work. The other problem is that Langdale would need to have at least one extra set of crew to run the #2 for full service days (at least on Thu-Mon), as I doubt that the Alberni operates with significantly less crew than the other C's? The Alberni could potentially be based from HSB also, thus being able to provide a ~6:20am sailing to Langdale. The other suggestion of using a smaller vessel on this route for the summer (or perhaps longer, maybe even year-round) would be even better.... if such a vessel was available. I think that the island sky or a 4th Salish would a good size, and could make use of the single-deck berth at Langdale. Without having to re-position at the beginning and end of service. The Bowen and Quinitsa might be able to handle Earls/Saltery in place of the Island Sky if both operated for the entire day (or as required). This would probably not be popular with Powell River residents (though as a former Powell River Resident and frequent visitor I would prefer to see more frequent sailings with smaller vessels, even if they are a bit slower) but might catch on once the bugs are worked out of the scheduling. Alternatively, perhaps some fleet shuffling could free up the PRQ or Mayne Queen to pair with the Bowen on this route - though I have never been to Quadra or the Gulf Islands so I don't know how this shuffle would affect service there.
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Post by hwy19man on Sept 11, 2017 14:20:39 GMT -8
Wow, it is Monday with a three sailing wait for overheights on route 30 from Duke Point! That means sitting there for 7.5 hours at TSA for the 2245h sailing and it is already 87% full for overheights. Route 2 will be taking the excess traffic.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Sept 11, 2017 21:55:08 GMT -8
Wow, it is Monday with a three sailing wait for overheights on route 30 from Duke Point! That means sitting there for 7.5 hours at TSA for the 2245h sailing and it is already 87% full for overheights. Route 2 will be taking the excess traffic. Kahloke shuttling this morning at Hornby, leaving cars behind. Came back on the last ferry, the 6:45 from Denman, and four cars were already lined up for the first ferry off island tomorrow morning, because so often it's full. System wide, there needs to be a re-think about service levels... just like often happens with land based transit. Hopefully the new government will recognize the parallels.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Oct 10, 2017 15:19:35 GMT -8
There is no way on earth that BC Ferries should be going to their winter schedule the day after Thanksgiving Monday. Departure Bay is overloaded for the 5pm sailing, and there is no 7, which means a four hour wait, and people can't divert to Duke Point, because the 5:45 is going to overload there as well.
There is always a lot of traffic the day after a holiday, and schedules need to reflect that.
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Post by mybidness459 on Oct 10, 2017 16:57:38 GMT -8
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 10, 2017 23:32:37 GMT -8
There is no way on earth that BC Ferries should be going to their winter schedule the day after Thanksgiving Monday. Departure Bay is overloaded for the 5pm sailing, and there is no 7, which means a four hour wait, and people can't divert to Duke Point, because the 5:45 is going to overload there as well.
There is always a lot of traffic the day after a holiday, and schedules need to reflect that. You are correct about route 2 changing its schedule the day after a busy holiday weekend. Yes, BCF seriously missed the boat on that. The Cowichan should have done its 1900h/2100h round trip.
There must have been a problem with the Surrey because it was approximately 70 minutes behind schedule and its final round trip was canceled. The Cowichan, after it finished its 1700h sailing from HSB arriving at Dep. Bay at 1925h (fifty minutes late), deadheaded to Langdale to do a round trip on route 3. The vessel left Langdale at 2140h and then departed HSB at 2235h, ironically those times are the summer schedule's last sailings. The Cowichan left Langdale and is currently deadheading back to Dep. Bay at this time.
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Post by penderdiver on Oct 11, 2017 11:05:53 GMT -8
Not only the majors - the 14:45 out of Otter Bay overloaded on foot passengers Monday leaving about 20 behind. Replacing the 1000 pax Nanaimo with the 600 pax Salish vessels is leading to overloads. You basically need a reservation even as a walk on on route 9 during peak times...
No service notice advising of the need for foot passenger reservations either - I was not impressed.
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Post by Dane on Aug 17, 2018 14:34:54 GMT -8
Four sailing wait out of Swartz Bay for Tsawwassen right now. 330pm and the 8pm is 95% committed. Wow.
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Post by hwy19man on Aug 18, 2018 12:39:40 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Aug 19, 2018 12:27:52 GMT -8
Just counted about 110 vehicles in line for the ferry off Hornby, with the line expected to grow this afternoon. Many families with small children, more than half a mile from washroom facilities, and not a single BC Ferries employee in sight, though they've placed up to three at Gravelly Bay on a regular basis.
Yesterday, Hornbyites arriving at Buckley Bay at 5pm were refused vehicle thrufares, with the last scheduled departure from Gravelly Bay being at 6:35. Many people didn't get home. No doubt it had to do with the overtime the crew has been working; yesterday the Kahloke ran until 8pm or so.
The situation here has been intolerable this summer, with interminable waits virtually every day, but this is the first time many people can remember that ticket sales were cut off at 5pm. I've written letters, but have received no replies, and I know many others have as well. Even more galling is the sight of Quinitsa sitting unused At Buckley Bay, and even worse, the knowledge of huge expenditures in new vessels for many other islands, while Hornby waits until 2030 for any improvement.
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Post by Starsteward on Aug 20, 2018 7:44:04 GMT -8
Just counted about 110 vehicles in line for the ferry off Hornby, with the line expected to grow this afternoon. Many families with small children, more than half a mile from washroom facilities, and not a single BC Ferries employee in sight, though they've placed up to three at Gravelly Bay on a regular basis. Yesterday, Hornbyites arriving at Buckley Bay at 5pm were refused vehicle thrufares, with the last scheduled departure from Gravelly Bay being at 6:35. Many people didn't get home. No doubt it had to do with the overtime the crew has been working; yesterday the Kahloke ran until 8pm or so. The situation here has been intolerable this summer, with interminable waits virtually every day, but this is the first time many people can remember that ticket sales were cut off at 5pm. I've written letters, but have received no replies, and I know many others have as well. Even more galling is the sight of Quinitsa sitting unused At Buckley Bay, and even worse, the knowledge of huge expenditures in new vessels for many other islands, while Hornby waits until 2030 for any improvement. For some inexplicable reason the good folks that rely/depend on a ferry service to and from all the communities served by this ferry route have historically been given the 'bum's rush', to put it mildly. I hate to sound as if I'm re-inventing the obvious response to this deplorable lack of service but people are served by their constituent political representatives who rely on that on-going support each time a provincial election is called. Now is the height of discontent being imposed on the local populace, so now is the time to inundate the Hon. Scott Fraser, the Hon. Claire Trevena and the Hon. John Horgan with a tsunami of e-mails, faxes, voice messages, etc., to the extent that it melts the ice-cubes in their favourite libations! With the current NDP administration clinging to power by the thinnest of margins, one might conject that come next election time, the 'usually' safe seat occupied by Mr. Fraser might become the victim of rampant neglect and be lost to an opposition party. Electors have POWER! Marshalled collectively, changes can be forthcoming! Whilst the good denizens impacted by the current deplorable lack of service are inundating the aforesaid representatives to the extent of busting the budget on copy paper for their office printers, let's share the discontent with the appropriate generously paid folks at BCFS, (for what that may be worth). BCFS KNOWS how dismal service provision is on this route, especially during the height of the Summer season! Having a vessel standing unused at a dock, within sight of the inconvenienced masses is tantamount to giving the 'finger' to those very people. BCFS has a responsibility to get this mess resolved! At the very least perhaps they could provide some portable washroom facilities where none now exist! Dare one even surmise that BCFS take a page out of the 'Save-On-Foods' slogan of 'going the extra mile' by providing food trucks, shade tents, potable water, dog runs, etc. to demonstrate to the travelling public that this quasi-government operation might just give a damn! 'Just had an after thought here'. Maybe all of us who are aware of the plight of the users of this ferry route, also get our fingers tapping out messages to our local MLA's, especially if they are of the NDP stripe. Those of us who reside in non-NDP ridings, why not send that particular MLA an e-mail gift as well, that hopefully will find its 'light of day' upon the governing body at a most embarrassing moment!
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Post by Kahn_C on Aug 20, 2018 8:33:26 GMT -8
Just counted about 110 vehicles in line for the ferry off Hornby, with the line expected to grow this afternoon. Many families with small children, more than half a mile from washroom facilities, and not a single BC Ferries employee in sight, though they've placed up to three at Gravelly Bay on a regular basis. Yesterday, Hornbyites arriving at Buckley Bay at 5pm were refused vehicle thrufares, with the last scheduled departure from Gravelly Bay being at 6:35. Many people didn't get home. No doubt it had to do with the overtime the crew has been working; yesterday the Kahloke ran until 8pm or so. The situation here has been intolerable this summer, with interminable waits virtually every day, but this is the first time many people can remember that ticket sales were cut off at 5pm. I've written letters, but have received no replies, and I know many others have as well. Even more galling is the sight of Quinitsa sitting unused At Buckley Bay, and even worse, the knowledge of huge expenditures in new vessels for many other islands, while Hornby waits until 2030 for any improvement. Letters are so easy to ignore though. Call up CHEK-TV, offer to tour guide them thru the issue, make an event of it.
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