NORTHERN SEA WOLF - Photos & Discussion

[Northern Exploration]

At the AGM it was stated that the replacement for the Queen of Chilliwack would be announced in January after talking to some of the stakeholders. Has anyone heard anything yet? Wonder if a new build or purchase of another used boat is in the works.

[Curtis]

Oddly enough nothing has been heard about the third new Northern Vessel. They're about 2 months late on announcing anything about it.

[Low Light Mike]

Does the funding from the Province still need to be approved for this? That might be the hold-up.

I think the Northern Discovery might not be here for a few years, or more. Me thinks it will be left to the end, and lots can change between now and then.

[markkarj]

I realize some Nor-Disco chat has happened in other threads, but I thought it would be worth giving the third new (or newer) Northern vessel a thread of her own. Moderators: do your worst... lock me down if you dare!

I guess the questions would be:
1) When ultimately does BC Ferries need to replace the Queen of Chilliwack?

2) A BC Ferries presentation said they were looking for a used ship. Have there been any possibilities?

3) At what point would BC Ferries drop the search for a used ship and go with a newbuild? Would this be an FSG ship, or could it be developed locally?

[Low Light Mike]

markkarj said:

Moderators: do your worst... lock me down if you dare!

....worse than locking this down, we'll give JT Cowan your home phone number. (that's a joke for the moderator group).

But seriously, thanks for starting this thread.....it's still in the fantasy stage....but who knows, the N-Disco might hit the floor and bust a move some day.

Sorry I have nothing definitive re your questions. My personal opinion (stated a few times before in other threads) is that the N-Disco will be a low priority, with lots of other newbuilds coming before it.

[Political Incorrectness]

I can think of much worse Flugel, much much worse. Try watching Bill'O Liar on Fixed News Channel in the states and being told you must believe it.

[markkarj]

Wow... the thread wasn't locked down!

Back to the serious realm again, I wonder what's the possibility of BC Ferries finding a ship that would meet the multiple roles that the n-disco would need. I saw elsewhere someone mentioning that the ship should be like a replacement/clone of the Queen of Prince Rupert, but still be small enough to do the Central Coast runs and whatnot. It seems a purpose-built ship is looking more like the option, except that it would probably serve mostly money-losing runs at the best of times.

[Nick]

Ultimately, TC has said that the Chilliwack can't run up north after 2009 (although it might be 2012, I can't remember). That doesn't mean the Chilliwack will be retired at that point, as she is still legal down south in the strait.

From what I have heard, they are still slowly "scouring the classifieds" for a used ship, but nothing has come up yet. When they will choose to go with a newbuild, I have no idea, nor to I know about a local/FSG build. I think they would probably go with FSG since they seem to have a pretty good relationship now.

[oceaneer77]

The new vessel will have big shoes to fill... but no offense to the chili.. she is not really suited to the run.

Lets hope that it is a much more efficient ship without the right angle or Zee drives.
These types of drives are complicated and not great for long distances.. having said that the new diesel electric Azi pod technology from ABB is very good and efficient as well. (this is electric motors fitted under the water in a zee drive type leg that can rotate 360 degrees just as a zee drive does, but because it is electronic it avoids the 90' bends in the drive shafts.)
Also better passenger spaces may improve the passenger numbers on that run.
In addition the new vessel should be able to back up her big sisters on the other northern runs in the event is is needed. Especially the queen Charlottes as an emergency service.
Slightly higher cruising speed would also be a plus.

So Really big shoes to fill but at present the shoes are only 1/2 full anyway

oceaneer77

[Northern Exploration]

The pods are being used on a lot of cruise ships, such as the Queen Mary. The do require extra clearance between the hull and the bottom because they hang farther below than conventional propellors/propulsion. Maybe someone who knows better can comment if any of the routes or terminals that the NorDisc would serve would be a problem with depth at low tide periods.

Oceaneer do you know if pods can be used when there are a lot of deadheads, logs and other debree routinely on the routes? I know Markus commented on the ice rating of the Coastals propulsion for log strikes. I was on the QoftN when they altered course slightly to take a log strike down one side rather than hit it squarely. As it was it banged along the hull a few times with fairly loud bangs before getting pushed out to port before it reached aft.

[oceaneer77]

On the pods and log damage....

They clam to have an ice rating and the USCG is putting them on the new icebreaker for the great lakes.. Aker ships are using them for there stern first icebreakers with the pods at the stern exposed to the ice..

So they should be just fine for a log strike.... i am still a fan of conventional shaft and screw arrangement.. but the advantages for the diesel electric azi pods are to big to be ignored.

I am sure that herbrinkmann will have more up to date info..

oceaneer77

[Mill Bay]

Despite her completely enclosed design, I don't really think the Queen of Chilliwack was really actually envisioned as a long distance vessel, especially due to the complexity of the RADs. Mainly, the weather in Norway can be a lot more disagreeable at times than even what we are used to on the Wet Coast, and the ship was designed with open-weather crossings in mind, but very few of the ferry routes in Norway would be of considerable length, except for those that actually cross the Baltic, or other large bodies the separate the countries of Northern Europe.

The ship seems to have been put on the Discovery run as sort of a fill-in because she was the only really appropriate vessel, even though she is not completely well-suited to that service. The Discovery route was also initially championed as a promotional run to beef up the coastal tourism trade up north, and in that function it has been effective, as well as providing a better local service.

Any new ship for destined that run should ideally be specifically designed with the proper functionality for the route that would unable it to perform all the little details (like launching and retrieving recreationists with kayaks, etc), be small and maneuverable enough to enter smaller harbours, but also large enough in accommodations to support the traffic and (drawing on previous suggestions) be certified for open sea crossings if necessary to maintain a complete service.

An adequate second-hander may be hard to find, and could, in all likelihood end up being just as much of a valiant, die-hard soldier for the cause that the Chilliwack is and yet, in the final sum of things, still not quite be able to fill the service to its full potential.

[markkarj]

so in some respects, the qualifications seem to be:
1) maybe a bit larger than the Chilli, but not quite as big as the QPR (but perhaps close to it);

2) decent cruise speed;

3) more cabins (actually, does the Chilli even have cabins at the moment); and

4) the capability to sub in for the NorAd and NorEx in emergencies (hopefully not though).

All of this seems to be adding up to a newer QPR, doesn't it?

[WettCoast]

Perhaps the ship should even be capable of providing all North Coast service during the slowest of the slow season - i.e. Nov to mid Dec and early Jan (after school's are back in) until early March (just before Spring Break).

Those times are typically the most demanding in weather terms. Is it possible to have a relatively small ship suited to traffic demands during those times that is also capable of handling most weather conditions reasonably well so as the number of missed and delayed sailings can be significantly reduced?

[Curtis]

markkarj said:

so in some respects, the qualifications seem to be:
1) maybe a bit larger than the Chilli, but not quite as big as the QPR (but perhaps close to it);

2) decent cruise speed;

3) more cabins (actually, does the Chilli even have cabins at the moment); and

4) the capability to sub in for the NorAd and NorEx in emergencies (hopefully not though).

All of this seems to be adding up to a newer QPR, doesn't it?

This all makes sense, Here's My View How BCF will do things. From BCF's View, They want a 60 Car Vessel. This Vessel Most Likely will go about the Same Speed as the Chilliwack. The Vessel Doesn't Need Cabins, Just for emergency purposes and for those who want it. A Replacement Vessel for the NorAd and NorEx Would Be Good, as long as it could handle the weather of Haida Gwaii.

[markkarj]

I wonder if BC Ferries is going to have to give up the possibility of inter-operability on routes. For example, if the Nor-Disco only meets the same speed as the Chilli, that would make for some loooooooooong sailings in the event she has to replace the NorAd or NorEx during the winter across the Hecate or along the inside passage.

Also, no cabins could make it a long, uncomfortable sailing if she's only doing about 14 knots along the inside passage (almost as uncomfortable as my recent train trip from PG to Prince Rupert, which was scheduled for 12.5 hours and lasted for nearly 20.5 hours).

I'm going to be very interested in what they do with this. This is a stretch, but would it almost be worth it for BC Ferries to take the QPR, completely gut and re-engine her, add safety upgrades, and make her the new discovery coast vessel?

[Nick]

The whole issue with the QPR is that she is only a single compartment hull. To fix that and all the other safety upgrades that would be necessary would cost far more than building a new ship. It would put us in the same or worse situation as WSF is now with their Steel Electrics. A ship has a definite lifespan, and there comes a point where it is time to retire.

Now, a new ship that is built along the same lines as the QPR, would probably be the best option for the discovery coast. It should be a little smaller, and be able to make 20 knots if it has to (ie to replace the NorAd/NorEx if necessary), but an 17-18 knot cruise speed would be sufficient. It could be done with newer efficient engines that would cut fuel costs dramatically and might even enable that run to break even on the accountant's books.

[markkarj]

coxnnick said:

The whole issue with the QPR is that she is only a single compartment hull. To fix that and all the other safety upgrades that would be necessary would cost far more than building a new ship. It would put us in the same or worse situation as WSF is now with their Steel Electrics. A ship has a definite lifespan, and there comes a point where it is time to retire.

Good point... will be interesting to see if there are any used ships that come even close to what BC Ferries will need.

What about this one?!?!?

commercial.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=63394

[WettCoast]

Unless they can find something used meeting virtually all of these criteria they risk buying yet another misfit like the Chilliwack and its almost new counterpart the NorAd. IMHO they need a new-build, a new QPR.

Another note on size. The QPR although bigger than the Chilliwack has a listed car capacity of 80 versus 115 for the Chilliwack.

After the NorEx is in service in the summer of 2009 it would be fun to see them put the QPR on the Discovery Coast for a summer season or two before they finally kiss her good bye.

[Neil]

The central coast is a financial sinkhole for BC Ferries. I can see them going year round to the kind of service they currently operate with the Nimpkish in the off season: a boat serving Bella Coola, Ocean Falls, Shearwater, and Klemtu, connecting north and south with the Inside Passage route at Bella Bella. That way, they would need a much smaller vessel than the 'Chilliwack; maybe something along the lines of Alaska State Ferries' Aurora, operating on an increased schedule from Bella Coola. The increased traffic for the coastal route would be partially absorbed by the slightly larger Northern Expedition, and/or the Queen Charlottes vessel could supplement with one trip per week from Prince Rupert to Bella Bella and Port Hardy. Remember, for at least one summer, years ago, the QOTN/QPR did six round trips a week on the Inside Passage. When you think about it, there's really no need to have two routes duplicating the Port Hardy- Bella Bella section of the coast.

David Hahn has said that there is no justification anywhere for major increases in service- they're just replacing existing vessels. BC Ferries has never had three boats capable of doing Hecate Strait, so why would they need three now?

[WettCoast]

Yes, Neil, your view here is logical, as is the norm.

[ferrytraveller]

well i was surfing the net and came across these ferries, would she be able to be a replacement for the Queen of Chilliwack or maybe for the Jervis route, better then the Island sky?

www.maretec.fo/saleslist%20doc/FS183.htm

or

www.maretec.fo/saleslist%20doc/FS181.htm

[Political Incorrectness]

Those might be worth looking into for replacements during refit since they can perform at 15 knots and carry enough vehicles. Thanks ferrytraveller.

[ferrytraveller]

i was also thinking they could potentially replace say the queen of burnaby or nanaimo on their routes, due to these ferries being somewhat enclosed. IT wouldn't be a bad replacement for the burnaby, which is never used to capacity, though might be a bit small to replace the nanaimo during busy periods.

[Retrovision]

Considering that the high bow would be most of the appeal for replacement of the 'Burnaby or 'Nanaimo, integration with existing docks would seemingly be an issue. Although considering that it's looking like northern docks will be changed to a more European style such as a wide stern can be accomodated and with little overhead superstructure, this might not be such a bad design choice for a 'Chilliwack replacement, especially considering the seas it'll need to deal with.