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Post by Mike C on Sept 6, 2016 12:55:29 GMT -8
I can hear the chorus of "I-told-you-so" brewing behind my computer screen, and rightfully so. The demise of Route 40 was a major blow to the economies of the North-Central Coast, and obviously they have been able to push for a resurrection at the right time (heading into an election), while at the same time while BCF/MoT takes on the procurement of a new vessel.
I have to admit that I was in the camp of people who didn't quite understand the purpose of Route 40, and therefore felt indifferent towards the elimination of the route. It has been well documented that the Queen of Chilliwack was, at best, an odd fit for BCF, and I think that contributed to my (and others) attitude. Obviously, the fallout happened almost exactly as predicted by the tourism associations of the north, and for those of us who maybe were admittedly not as receptive, this whole process was definitely eye-opening.
The time to poke-and-pry at the Liberals is heading into an election, apparently. The pandering is so blatantly obvious now that it comes off as arrogance.
I look forward to the new vessel, as long as we don't go on another Northern Adventure... Opa!
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Post by whalebreath on Sept 6, 2016 18:23:04 GMT -8
I never slept in any more 'unique' accommodation I must say.
Just to leaven some of the cynicism such a development brings I'd like to say that the crew working that ship were some of the finest shipboard staff I've ever met anywhere in a lifetime of travelling.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 6, 2016 22:00:26 GMT -8
This latest episode of the Todd and Christy show makes me want to vomit. They would have you believe that they have had this tremendous brainstorm that the central coast needs a ferry service to develop aboriginal tourism and other business, and it's being spurred on by the impending retirement of the mighty Nimpkish.
Cynical, dishonest opportunists. They've shown callous disregard for the central coast since they cancelled the previous service and sold a boat which had just had extensive upgrades. Well, at least it made George Goundar happy. Stephen Hume documented the cost to the central and north coast, in more than just anecdotal terms, as did others, but the Liberals didn't give a damn because it wasn't near election time.
Hopefully locals won't be impressed with the attempted vote buying. The 'Chilliwack, unsuited as she was, should have stayed on route forty until something better was purchased. I think that people will be happy about getting back a decent level of service- if that's what happens- but they won't forget the harm that the Liberals did to their communities in recent years with the idiotic, penny wise-pound foolish decision to cancel route forty. |
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 7, 2016 7:54:33 GMT -8
Have to agree wholeheartedly with Neil (see post above). Was it not two years ago that Minister Stone announced (in Williams Lake, I recall) a new vessel for this route. Now, with an election just around the corner we get this. They know that this kind of cynical politics works, too. There are legions of voters lacking in critical thinking abilities who will believe that we are being governed by 'sound' decision makers. House keeping note: We seem to have two parallel threads going related to this subject. Perhaps they should be merged. WCK/JST, back on Canadian soil ... |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 7, 2016 8:00:02 GMT -8
House keeping note: We seem to have two parallel threads going related to this subject. Perhaps they should be merged. WCK/JST, back on Canadian soil ... With the Provincial Government's pre-election announcement in September 2016 of the "New" resurrected route between Port Hardy & Bella Coola, and the need for a used ship purchase, here's some thread clarification for this here forum: The used ship for the Port Hardy - Bella Coola route should not be considered a "Nimpkish Replacement." - any Nimpkish replacement will be what might happen after 2019 to replace that little ship on the little connector route that serves Ocean Falls and Shearwater year-round. - this might turn out to be a permanent contract with a private tug-barge service. So the Nimpkish replacement vessel thread is for this type of service - NOT the new Port Hardy to Bella Coola route. The used ship to be purchased for the Port Hardy - Bella Coola route should more correctly be referred to as a "Queen of Chilliwack replacement." Hopefully this is simple and clear for everyone to understand. Nimpkish's 2014-2017 spotlight was just a blip. She really is just a small mid-coast connector ship that was suited to that role, but not for summer tourist traffic to Bella Coola. The new 2018 route is really a replacement of part of the old Route 40, following 2013. The 2013-2017 service is a blip. |
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Post by northwesterner on Sept 7, 2016 9:35:56 GMT -8
This latest episode of the Todd and Christy show makes me want to vomit. They would have you believe that they have had this tremendous brainstorm that the central coast needs a ferry service to develop aboriginal tourism and other business, and it's being spurred on by the impending retirement of the mighty Nimpkish.
Cynical, dishonest opportunists. They've shown callous disregard for the central coast since they cancelled the previous service and sold a boat which had just had extensive upgrades. Well, at least it made George Goundar happy. Stephen Hume documented the cost to the central and north coast, in more than just anecdotal terms, as did others, but the Liberals didn't give a damn because it wasn't near election time.
Hopefully locals won't be impressed with the attempted vote buying. The 'Chilliwack, unsuited as she was, should have stayed on route forty until something better was purchased. I think that people will be happy about getting back a decent level of service- if that's what happens- but they won't forget the harm that the Liberals did to their communities in recent years with the idiotic, penny wise-pound foolish decision to cancel route forty. Before I make a foot-in-mouth comment, can someone help refresh my memory? Before BC Ferries started Route 40 in 1995(?), what did the marine transportation service in this corridor look like? Do I recall reading something, somewhere on here about a private service that disappeared in the face of gov't competition? |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 7, 2016 10:41:36 GMT -8
Before I make a foot-in-mouth comment, can someone help refresh my memory? Before BC Ferries started Route 40 in 1995(?), what did the marine transportation service in this corridor look like? Do I recall reading something, somewhere on here about a private service that disappeared in the face of gov't competition? The history lesson is HERE |
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 7, 2016 11:04:30 GMT -8
Quote from Premier Christy Clark: See more at: www.timescolonist.com/news/local/b-c-reverses-course-restores-island-ferry-to-bella-coola-1.2338240#sthash.WEPeMfmT.dpufThere appears to me to be much uncertainty to just exactly what the BC Govt/BCFS intend. According to that quote from the Premier we can expect a scaled down NorEx to operate a Port Hardy - Bella Coola service for a few months per year. The time line is too tight for a new build so they have to find something 'suitable' on the used market. They just might end up with something equally as unsuitable as the Wack was, and loosing money just as ably. Just what is the intended role here? I am imagining a weekly summer service that makes two direct round trips between PH & BC, plus a third round trip 'milk run" that might also serve Klemtu. Will they still need a Nimpkish also in the summer? (Mr. Horn has speculated that service to Ocean Falls, Shearwater, etc., might well be in the form of a tug & barge.) They will need to continue to provide some sort of off-season service as well, and we know that the Nimpkish has to be gone soonish. A 60 car vessel with ammenities has the potential to be the North & Central coast #1 vessel during slow parts of the off-season. This is beginning to sound a lot like what BCFS was looking for six years ago in a Northern Discovery ... Do we still have a Northern Discovery thread? |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 7, 2016 11:28:49 GMT -8
Do we still have a Northern Discovery thread? Yes, on page one of the new ships section. That thread was active from 2007 to 2011. There is some interesting old discussion on that thread. Now we're into hopefully some specific news that we can have a less speculative discussion on, once we get some more info. ie. it will be good to discuss real plans for a real ship. |
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Post by roeco on Sept 8, 2016 8:32:45 GMT -8
I wonder if we might not see 3 round trips per week from Port Hardy to Bella Coola with a "new old ship and the Nimpkish doing a Bella Coola to Ocean Falls,Klemtu,etc run twice a week. Now that would make more sense....that way the service would attract the Tourists...and with a smaller say 60-80 car vessel with a decent restaurant, lounge, sundeck, showers,wifi, espresso bar and lots of deck space and big windows for the spectacular views. Winter could see Nimpkish doing exactly as she does now! And the Discovery Coast vessel could be used during slow periods up north.
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Post by Dane on Sept 8, 2016 9:07:56 GMT -8
To be honest I thought this WAS the Northern Discovery. In fact, I still do. Just the third iteration of what's been an on-again-off-again Northern ship procurement stratagy.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 8, 2016 13:03:13 GMT -8
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Post by Starsteward on Sept 8, 2016 13:16:19 GMT -8
In today's Vancouver Province, columnist Mike Smyth titled today's column: Government's thorough both job on Northern ferry route.
One has to read all the way through the piece until the 4th last paragraph where he mentions aboriginal businesses.
The second last paragraph is blunt: Quote: " The decision to punish the region by cutting their ferry route posed a direct threat to the re-election chances of Liberal MLA Donna Barnett, who represents Cariboo-Chilcotin in the legislature."
Smyth concludes stating:" All in all, a thoroughly bungled set of government decisions that hurt a lot of people".
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 9, 2016 9:17:33 GMT -8
There's not much left of the daily print media, but what remains doesn't appear to have been fooled by Crusty attempting to pawn off this admission of policy failure as some sort of brilliant new idea.
Next, she'll have to re-imagine uses for all those LNG terminal locations she bought the last election with. |
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Post by Starsteward on Sept 9, 2016 12:53:21 GMT -8
There's not much left of the daily print media, but what remains doesn't appear to have been fooled by Crusty attempting to pawn off this admission of policy failure as some sort of brilliant new idea.
Next, she'll have to re-imagine uses for all those LNG terminal locations she bought the last election with. I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head 'Neil'. So glad, and amused that you've raised the ugly fact that, your term here, 'Crusty' has definitely got some 'splainin' to do on the LNG front and come the run-up to the next election, she'll have to develop stick handling skills the envy of NHL professionals.  |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 9, 2016 21:41:00 GMT -8
There's not much left of the daily print media, but what remains doesn't appear to have been fooled by Crusty attempting to pawn off this admission of policy failure as some sort of brilliant new idea.
Next, she'll have to re-imagine uses for all those LNG terminal locations she bought the last election with. I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head 'Neil'. So glad, and amused that you've raised the ugly fact that, your term here, 'Crusty' has definitely got some 'splainin' to do on the LNG front and come the run-up to the next election, she'll have to develop stick handling skills the envy of NHL professionals. I thought the LNG comparison was appropriate, since Clark spun herself into knots avoiding the blame for an idiotic transportation decision regarding route forty three years ago, and she is indeed going to have a fun time explaining how a hundred thousand jobs and a trillion dollars in revenue dwindled to maybe-possibly-if we're lucky one project getting greenlighted, with terminal infrastructure being constructed overseas and assembled here lego style, with very few jobs resulting.
But that's another topic for another thread. Cynicism aside, I'm as curious as the next transportation buff to see what this vessel will be like, and what the service will end up involving.
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Post by Dane on Sept 12, 2016 12:09:01 GMT -8
I just spent about forty minutes looking at the Asian & European used ferry market via Google. Surely most ship sales must be done through private brokerages that don't have complete public facing websites. But nonetheless I was surprised at the number of ships available, and also the lack of ships in the even remote area of what this Northern ferry would need to be.
I'm quite excited to see what ends up being purchased, and hopefully we hear some rumours as the process is ongoing like we benefited from with the Northern Adventure.
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Post by YoursTruly on Sept 19, 2016 9:00:17 GMT -8
I think what this really comes down to, is the fact that BCFS was given a huge sum of cash in order to tackle route 40 and when they suddenly found that the federal government was no longer willing to extend their rubber stamp on the Chilliwack, they had no other option other than to sell her. After taking out route 40, they were suddenly made aware that if they did not continue the previous service, they would find themselves owing the federal government a very large sum of money as noted in the fine print. Anyway, it really is an interesting and exciting opportunity to see what kind of vessel is purchased and/or built. Because the Chilliwack was regularly used on the Sunshine Coast in off seasons, it would be wise that they don't get a single ended ship as much as we may like them. (a new aged QPR would be adored but well not practical in that sense.) Interesting stuff!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 19, 2016 9:18:29 GMT -8
I think what this really comes down to, is the fact that BCFS was given a huge sum of cash in order to tackle route 40 and when they suddenly found that the federal government was no longer willing to extend their rubber stamp on the Chilliwack, they had no other option other than to sell her. After taking out route 40, they were suddenly made aware that if they did not continue the previous service, they would find themselves owing the federal government a very large sum of money as noted in the fine print. Anyway, it really is an interesting and exciting opportunity to see what kind of vessel is purchased and/or built. Because the Chilliwack was regularly used on the Sunshine Coast in off seasons, it would be wise that they don't get a single ended ship as much as we may like them. (a new aged QPR would be adored but well not practical in that sense.) Interesting stuff! I would love some elaboration on the first two sentences. Could you please lay out the "fact" sequence in order with specifics so that I can understand it? I could start asking questions, but I'd rather get a better idea of the "fact" before I start asking a bunch of questions. Thanks. ps: I will bite on one item and ask: This was my first stumbling block: Are you meaning Federal cash to do the Chilliwack refits, or Provincial cash to subsidize the operations of Route 40? |
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Post by YoursTruly on Sept 19, 2016 9:36:53 GMT -8
I think what this really comes down to, is the fact that BCFS was given a huge sum of cash in order to tackle route 40 and when they suddenly found that the federal government was no longer willing to extend their rubber stamp on the Chilliwack, they had no other option other than to sell her. After taking out route 40, they were suddenly made aware that if they did not continue the previous service, they would find themselves owing the federal government a very large sum of money as noted in the fine print. Anyway, it really is an interesting and exciting opportunity to see what kind of vessel is purchased and/or built. Because the Chilliwack was regularly used on the Sunshine Coast in off seasons, it would be wise that they don't get a single ended ship as much as we may like them. (a new aged QPR would be adored but well not practical in that sense.) Interesting stuff! I would love some elaboration on the first two sentences. Could you please lay out the "fact" sequence in order with specifics so that I can understand it? I could start asking questions, but I'd rather get a better idea of the "fact" before I start asking a bunch of questions. Thanks. ps: I will bite on one item and ask: This was my first stumbling block: Are you meaning Federal cash to do the Chilliwack refits, or Provincial cash to subsidize the operations of Route 40? I'm referring to the subsidizing of Route 40. As for rubber stamping, I'm referring to Transport Canada not being happy with the Queen of Chilliwack to begin with. As we know, BC Ferries has gotten away with a heck of a lot of "don't worry we'll get to it" in the past. buying a single compartment ship (among other things,) forcing the issue for it to get temporarily approved by TC, then again fallowing up with some more issues to keep it temporarily rubber stamped, then finally TC had enough with it. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 19, 2016 9:41:50 GMT -8
I would love some elaboration on the first two sentences. Could you please lay out the "fact" sequence in order with specifics so that I can understand it? I could start asking questions, but I'd rather get a better idea of the "fact" before I start asking a bunch of questions. Thanks. ps: I will bite on one item and ask: This was my first stumbling block: Are you meaning Federal cash to do the Chilliwack refits, or Provincial cash to subsidize the operations of Route 40? I'm referring to the subsidizing of Route 40. As for rubber stamping, I'm referring to Transport Canada not being happy with the Queen of Chilliwack to begin with. As we know, BC Ferries has gotten away with a heck of a lot of "don't worry we'll get to it" in the past. buying a single compartment ship (among other things,) forcing the issue for it to get temporarily approved by TC, then again fallowing up with some more issues to keep it temporarily rubber stamped, then finally TC had enough with it. Thanks So is the cash that would be owing back to the Federal Government be from old Federal subsidies of the refit costs? Or is this from that Federal operating subsidy that BC Ferries allocates to the northern routes? ps: thanks for posting here and bringing the explanations that you do. I appreciate the people who know what's going on. |
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Post by YoursTruly on Sept 19, 2016 10:15:10 GMT -8
I'm referring to the subsidizing of Route 40. As for rubber stamping, I'm referring to Transport Canada not being happy with the Queen of Chilliwack to begin with. As we know, BC Ferries has gotten away with a heck of a lot of "don't worry we'll get to it" in the past. buying a single compartment ship (among other things,) forcing the issue for it to get temporarily approved by TC, then again fallowing up with some more issues to keep it temporarily rubber stamped, then finally TC had enough with it. Thanks So is the cash that would be owing back to the Federal Government be from old Federal subsidies of the refit costs? Or is this from that Federal operating subsidy that BC Ferries allocates to the northern routes? ps: thanks for posting here and bringing the explanations that you do. I appreciate the people who know what's going on. For costs allocated to Northern routes. It was thought that by keeping the Nimp doing her current routing, all bases where covered though recent events suggest apparently not. Why purchase a vessel and spend all of that money training crew and creating the SMS details and all other oddities that go along with a new vessel for a route in which they were losing money on? Route 40 as we knew it may be gone for good, but a new "route" with better fuel and cost saving measures may be enroute to the coast. A vessel likely to have as few crew as possible meanwhile maintaining catering services and probably cabins. Salish class has crew accommodation which serves a good purpose in cost savings by means of hotels during training, ship positioning, etc. If they do a new build for it, I could imagine and hope for many similarities in the design, since fleet standardization is a must for future training and cost cutting. Sure going to miss the old fleet of so many different and unique ships! Even the V class where all quite unique! (hmm, I think my ADD took me to another avenue again.) |
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 19, 2016 10:49:33 GMT -8
As we know, BC Ferries has gotten away with a heck of a lot of "don't worry we'll get to it" in the past. buying a single compartment ship (among other things,) forcing the issue for it to get temporarily approved by TC, then again fallowing up with some more issues to keep it temporarily rubber stamped, then finally TC had enough with it. I assume that you are referring to the 1990 purchase of what would become the Q of Chilliwack? It was intended in the beginning for operations on south coast routes such as the Gulf Islands & Sunshine Coast. Are you saying that Transport Canada was against BCFC acquiring a single compartment vessel for use on such routes? |
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Post by Starsteward on Sept 20, 2016 9:35:29 GMT -8
In terms of the kind of vessel required for the soon to be re-established route 40, I would like to see a vessel similar in design as the new day boats being built by the Vigor shipyards in Alaska for the AMHS. With a few tweaks, ie. some cabins, enhanced catering options, a vessel of this design may well be the appropriate size for route 40 and perhaps as a Winter relief vessel for route 11 or northern routes that require a vessel to have an enclosed car deck.
Unfortunately, Vigor is behind schedule on the delivery of the first two vessels and will be busy with more to come. While the State of Alaska is a wee bit cash-strapped these days I suppose the thought of 'buying' one of these new-builds from them might sound appealing, the reality is that the AMHS urgently requires these new vessels for service a.s.a.p.
As several of our forum members have mentioned, let's hope 'Christy's ferry boat search party' comes up with something more suitable than either the 'NorAd' or the now defunct 'Queen of Chilliwack'.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 25, 2016 19:39:15 GMT -8
The latest BCFS "Management's Discussion & Analysis" report mentions this about the new route/ship:
This type of report is one of the most regulated items of communication that BC Ferries does, and so you know that it's carefully worded and is their official word.
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