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Post by Kahloke on Nov 26, 2008 23:03:41 GMT -8
Great article! Thanks for posting this one. I couldn't help but chuckle a little bit over the interior furnishings comments, about the "attractive" reds, yellows, and orange, that apparently adorned the passenger cabins. It seems they couldn't escape those hideous 70's colours that also adorned the cabins of their distant cousins, the Walla Walla and Spokane.
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Post by Dane on Dec 17, 2008 3:02:13 GMT -8
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Dec 17, 2008 3:50:25 GMT -8
I managed to locate the main index page which would indicate this site is a prototype for the engineering group to coordinate fleet maintenance.
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pscurr
Chief Steward
Posts: 204
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Post by pscurr on Dec 31, 2008 21:28:40 GMT -8
www.islandtides.com/A couple of articles from the Island Tides that might be interesting to our group... Happy New Year... Sea you on Galiano in the summer.
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Post by ferrytraveller on Jan 12, 2009 17:21:29 GMT -8
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Post by Dane on Feb 6, 2009 1:18:17 GMT -8
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 6, 2009 6:53:13 GMT -8
Thanks for finding that Dane. It is interesting to see the thoroughness of the search of the QoftN replacement. The Sonia was only one of a few ships that were suitable that were available during the time frame needed.
I wonder if the NorAd has settled into service now with many of the "issues" now taken care of and working well. The general looks will never change, and the grumbling over the lack of forward lounge/viewing will continue, but I am refering to her seakeeping and other mechanical issues that kept cropping up.
It would be interesting to see passenger surveys. If you are on an overnight run to the Charlottes maybe forward viewing doesn't matter as much to the public.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 6, 2009 10:37:15 GMT -8
Interesting tables in that document, which show the pluses and minuses of dozens of vessels considered.
Apparently they were looking at the Fastcats, and even AMH's Aurora. One vessel, which some here had suggested might be suitable, the Scotia Prince, was not SOLAS compliant, and had safety defects on its record. Another suggested vessel, the Nissos Mykonos, had no cabins.
It looks like they considered virtually everything afloat, as even the bizarrely hideous Vacationland from the east coast was on the list, rejected as 'too slow'.
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Post by Curtis on Feb 7, 2009 23:55:38 GMT -8
I'm interested by this list of vessels. So much that I've gathered pictures of the Considered Vessels. Imagine each of these being called the Northern Adventure. Nissos Mykonos (The Eventually Chosen) Sonia Atlantic Traveller Daedalus/Riviera Adriatica Daliana Milena Smyril Saos II Zadar Color Traveller Wisteria Express Aphrodite Primrose Euroferry Atlantica Alandsfarjan Barakat (Here as the Travemunde) Spirit of Ontario Al Sabini The Pacificat Explorer, Discovery, and Voyager...Imagine if they decided to bring them back. Autoexpress 3 Diamant Rapide and last but not least, Scotia Prince
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Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 9, 2009 18:36:41 GMT -8
an interesting note for you guys, you ( the west coast ferries forum) are mentioned in Western Mariner Magazine for there 2009 issue. IT was a small article about the Queen of the Islands. The St. Johns Fishing lodge has gone bankrupt apparently and she is for sale.
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Post by Ferryman on Feb 9, 2009 19:22:56 GMT -8
Good eye, ferrytraveller. Any idea what month that issue is from? I have the January and February 2009 issues, and would like to take a look for myself.
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Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 9, 2009 19:25:30 GMT -8
its in the Feburary issue, page 6
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 9, 2009 22:14:02 GMT -8
I wonder if the NorAd has settled into service now with many of the "issues" now taken care of and working well. The general looks will never change, and the grumbling over the lack of forward lounge/viewing will continue, but I am refering to her seakeeping and other mechanical issues that kept cropping up. It would be interesting to see passenger surveys. If you are on an overnight run to the Charlottes maybe forward viewing doesn't matter as much to the public. BCFS has opted to keep the NorAd out of service throughout this fall/winter & next. For the foreseeable future she will do summer service to QCI/Haida Gwaii. The only other use she will see, apparently, is to sub for the NorEx during her annual refit each year, expected to happen in spring time. This means she will be idle seven months each year. Why? The likely main reason is her sea keeping issues. I saw some fuel consumption figures that lead me to believe that she consumes considerably more fuel than the QPR (maybe 50% more per unit of distance travelled. Her extra capacity (101 vehicles versus 80 for the QPR really is not required for route 11. She is loaded with staterooms - including the four deluxe ones - again far more than is needed for QCI service the vast majority of the time. I do not know what crewing she requires compared to the QPR but I expect it would be the same, perhaps higher. (Does anyone have any numbers?) In short, I think that costs to service the QCI route will be considerably more with this vessel. Some will say that they simply have to 'grow the business' to attract more ridership. In reality. dramatically rising fares are shrinking the business and BCFS knows it. The economic situation in general, and in northern BC in particular, will make matters worse. As you say, her lack of forward viewing is not as great an issue on Hecate Strait as it is on the Inside Passage. This is because there is not so much to see in the wide open expanse of that strait, and also many of these trips are made at night anyways. Her lack of bow loading means that she is somewhat complicated to load especially for bigger rigs which are common on the QCI service. It takes a lot more time to load the NorAd than is needed for ships that load at both ends. As such, her greater speed (compared to the QPR) is largely negated by increased loading & unloading time. The document cited above by Dane would appear to justify the purchase the purchase of the Sonia/NorAd. I have not read the whole thing, but I am fairly sure that the idea of chartering a suitable vessel was never seriously looked at. Quote from Neil: I, for one, had stated that this would have been a suitable charter vessel. Never did I say that it would be a good idea to purchase it. Furthermore I recall reading that the SP did meet the SOLAS requirement for two compartment stability. I checked this out again tonight; see the link below. It appears that the ship does meet SOLAS requirements. Which source is correct? The SP would have not been suitable in the long run due to its age, size and relatively slow speed. As a short term solution (e.g. charter) following the loss of the QotN it appears it would have been acceptable. SP specs: www.isp-usa.com/fleet/scotiaprince/scotiaprince_tech.htmlIn the long run BCFS's purchasing decision re the NorAd remains questionable, and the release of the above document does not change that. They need to get on with the search for (or build new) a Northern Discovery which measures up to the parameters outlined below: Quoted from ' Nick's account of last fall's forum group trip aboard the QPR.
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Post by Ferryman on Feb 9, 2009 23:35:31 GMT -8
ACK...I created a nice long and detailed post a little while ago, and then when I hit "post", everything I wrote became erased since my login time had timed out while I was writing...But I guess the good thing to that is now I know exactly what I want to say, and I'll be able to go straight to the point, instead of having long drawn out sentances to explain what I'm trying to get at...
I think there's more to the Norad not running up north for at least 6 or 7 months of the year. Having her sit around around Deas for the entire off season obviously isn't really feasible. So lets look at what we know:
BCF acquired the Sidney terminal, and WSF is looking at terminating the International run. BCF will obviously plan on figuring out a way of utilizing this terminal. Perhaps they could run the NorAd on an international run to Seattle to some sort of port down there. I think the docks the Princess Margueritte III (Queen of Burnaby) used no longer exist I believe. Any ship running Internationally must be fully SOLAS approved, and if I'm not mistaken, the Norad already is fit with that requirement. The only thing that might be overkill, is her passenger staterooms. That could likely be changed, since the Haida Gwaii route doesn't really require very many of them either.
Another use for the Norad in the off season, is drop trailer service in competition with WMG. They could also likely use the Sidney terminal for this, but I don't know what sort of changes would have to be made at Tsawwassen for this to work. Ie: holding compounds for drop trailers.
Of course, the first thing that would have to be addressed before anything else is done, is having berths that she can fit her wide bum into. It was said that she'd have the little rubbing strake type frame at the stern would be removed after QPR retirement, to allow for use of the European style docks instead. Those are the docks with the floating platforms, so the ships onboard ramps will just lower down on to the floating platform.
It will be interesting to see what happens nonetheless. Even though the Norad has been having long and extended refits the past couple of winters, it might be all part of what's in store for the future. Time will tell.
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Post by Dane on Feb 9, 2009 23:37:34 GMT -8
I am confused - why aren't they just following the same pattern the North and QPR did? This year the extra variable is refit she's currently in, v. 3.0.
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 10, 2009 0:06:41 GMT -8
You would hope they would have some sort of contingency, or alternative usage plan after all the investment they have put into the ship. Like Steven Poole said, they've put enough money into refitting the ship that it only makes sense to keep it running now and operate it somehow.
I don't know about the drop trailer service, as we have already discussed how complicated the cardeck is to load trailers onto. An international service could be more plausible, although there is still the issue of loading. In addition, the staterooms are hardly part of the actual structure of the ship, so it should even be possible to clean some of them out, take out all the dividing walls to create additional lounge space, as well.
And, I know we've talked about whether it would be possible to cut a bow door into her, with the general consensus being it's not possible, but what about the possibility of side loading? Could they possibly open up a door in the side to permit loading like the Coho? Maybe they might even be able to do that and use her as a replacement for the Coho...
You never know. Like Chris said, there must be a plan.
On an offhand note: the Scotia Prince seems to be only a slightly newer version of the Queen of the North. Maybe they didn't choose it because they thought people would have problems dealing with a ship that looks so similar to the Queen of the North.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Feb 10, 2009 15:33:54 GMT -8
There has always been one northern vessel not running for a good part of the year. For now, that will be the Northern Adventure. It may change with time.
People might be reading too much into the NorAd's frequent trips to the shop. BC Ferries was in desperate straits after the 'North went down, and they bought what was probably the most suitable boat available- but it was far from ideal. I think they've made a decision to commit to the NorAd long term, and the ongoing work reflects that.
BC Ferries would have to have rocks in their head (heads?) to try an international car ferry service. WSF can't make it pay, nor could CPR, nor could BC Steamships, or european giant Stena Lines, and Sea Containers chickened out before they ever started. There is no provincial subsidy for an international run, so it would have to stand on its own, and experience over the last thirty years says that's not possible (Coho being the exception.)
The NorAd has limited capacity for a drop trailer service, and it wouldn't seem to make sense to put her on a run that she couldn't do in the summer. I think in future years she or the NorEx will be hanging around Deas a lot in the off season, just as it's always been for one of the northern vessels.
Sidney continues to be a baffling proposition. They're going to lose WSF as a tenant, and I can't imagine what they're going to do with it, as they have no need for it for their existing operations, and the chance of expanding operations in this economic climate would seem to be nil.
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Post by Dane on Feb 10, 2009 17:20:00 GMT -8
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Post by Dane on Feb 11, 2009 1:17:21 GMT -8
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 11, 2009 4:33:36 GMT -8
This is a listing of all the property assets associated with each of the terminals. Since the lots were not merged as they acquired, each lot is listed as a separate entity. It was interesting to see that BCFS owns seafloor at most of the terminals; this gives them certain rights over control of the waters bounded by said property that they wouldn't have otherwise. It was also interesting to see the airspace parcels for Horseshoe Bay...Karl or ferrynutseattle can probably confirm this for me, but I believe ownership gives BCFS controlling authority of the airspace, and allows them to limit air traffic.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 11, 2009 6:46:15 GMT -8
This is a listing of all the property assets associated with each of the terminals. Since the lots were not merged as they acquired, each lot is listed as a separate entity. It was interesting to see that BCFS owns seafloor at most of the terminals; this gives them certain rights over control of the waters bounded by said property that they wouldn't have otherwise. It was also interesting to see the airspace parcels for Horseshoe Bay...Karl or ferrynutseattle can probably confirm this for me, but I believe ownership gives BCFS controlling authority of the airspace, and allows them to limit air traffic. I will have to look up in Canada Air Pilot or NavCanada later to see what restrictions are there. I imagine the narrow confines of the Bay would make seaplane traffic dicey. I don't ever recall seeing a float plane there. I have seen a Beaver in Departure Bay.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 11, 2009 7:01:37 GMT -8
This is a listing of all the property assets associated with each of the terminals. Since the lots were not merged as they acquired, each lot is listed as a separate entity. It was interesting to see that BCFS owns seafloor at most of the terminals; this gives them certain rights over control of the waters bounded by said property that they wouldn't have otherwise. It was also interesting to see the airspace parcels for Horseshoe Bay...Karl or ferrynutseattle can probably confirm this for me, but I believe ownership gives BCFS controlling authority of the airspace, and allows them to limit air traffic. I will have to look up in Canada Air Pilot or NavCanada later to see what restrictions are there. I imagine the narrow confines of the Bay would make seaplane traffic dicey. I don't ever recall seeing a float plane there. I have seen a Beaver in Departure Bay. Horseshoe Bay was the only terminal I saw with the airspace parcels...so you are probably right...they are trying to ensure nobody will be taxiing in and out given how confined the harbour is.
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 11, 2009 11:57:30 GMT -8
Neil will like this one, it gets all nostalgic about the retiring of the V-Class, .
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Post by Dane on Feb 11, 2009 23:52:09 GMT -8
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
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Post by Nick on Feb 12, 2009 9:20:51 GMT -8
That was a actually detailing the replacement of the Dogwood Princess 2, but it was an interesting read nonetheless.
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