war criminal fired

[Neil]

Of course the union should represent the three crew members from the 'North sinking, but does any one know if they had to go to bat for this 'convicted war criminal'?

Tribunal nixes complaint
The Province
Published: Friday, May 04, 2007

A Saltspring Island man should have mentioned being convicted of war crimes in Croatia during the hiring process with B.C. Ferries, the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal has ruled.
Josip Budimcic was fired from B.C. Ferries in August 2005, a decade after he was convicted in absentia in Croatia in connection with the torture and execution of seven prisoners of war. Budimcic disputed the conviction but B.C. Ferries claimed the auto mechanic misrepresented himself by not revealing the conviction when he was hired.
Budimcic, whom Croatia is seeking to extradite to serve a 15-year jail term, claimed B.C. Ferries discriminated against him and wouldn't tell him why he was fired. Tribunal chairwoman Heather McNaughton rejected the complaint, saying it was filed too late and Budimcic was "aware of the alleged discriminatory reason for his termination."

('monster' changed to 'convicted war criminal')

[Low Light Mike]

I remember posting a similar article to this, approx a year or 2 ago. I think the thread got zero replies, and even less views.

Thanks for the update...at least he seems to have gotten some sort of due-process here with his job. But do you wonder why he was even allowed to emigrate to Canada?

[JROCK]

Monster?
Joe is one of the nicest men you will even meet, His story is quiet amazing and interesting. This country was founded by men that lived through horrible wars, in war terrible things happen... don't pass judgement on a man you know nothing of.

He is a hell of of a mechanic as well, the ferries lost a good man there.

[ferryrider42]

I’m willing to give this topic some further thought. We obviously have very little information about what happened some ten years ago. Really, nothing more then one man’s words against another’s. However, I do recognize that news organizations have a tendency sensationalize stories these days. And, given that this man is living in Canada, with no apparent talk of deportation, I can only assume that the claims against him are not as sever as they may appear.

Then again, this is all speculation; unfortunately, we will never know the whole story.

[Retrovision]

JROCK said:

Monster?
Joe is one of the nicest men you will even meet, His story is quiet amazing and interesting. This country was founded by men that lived through horrible wars, in war terrible things happen... don't pass judgement on a man you know nothing of.

He is a hell of of a mechanic as well, the ferries lost a good man there.

Thank you, JROCK, for feeling welcome enough to comment so freely on such a contentious issue, let alone specific case. I hope that us moderators no longer discourage antything less and am encouraged by your words.

Indeed, just like how even later retracted words by polititians can forever be taken all too often by the voting public as gospel, our opinions on this person should be based on judicial fact and not media hearsay. I'm reminded of one Bill Mullins-Johnson, recently admittedly wrongfully accused and released former convict.

For the sake of integrity I won't offer direct specific opinion on this matter, but in any case I am encouraged to hear more voices.

[Neil]

Amazing what pops out of the wordwork around here, eh? No such thing as a dead thread.

Gosh, what a shame. BC Ferries, losing a 'hell of a mechanic', and a really nice guy , to boot, all because of a silly technicality like refusing to mention a conviction of complicity in torturing and executing seven prisoners of war. More political correctness, if you ask me.

('Complicity in' added to precede 'torturing and executing', and 'refusing to mention' subsituted for 'lying')

[Retrovision]

hornbyguy said:

Amazing what pops out of the wordwork around here, eh? No such thing as a dead thread.

Gosh, what a shame. BC Ferries, losing a 'hell of a mechanic', and a really nice guy , to boot, all because of a silly technicality like lying about a conviction of torturing and executing seven prisoners of war. More political correctness, if you ask me.

You've got my head spinning; rhetoric has never been so baffling. Atleast you're making us think.

[JROCK]

I'm just reading through old threads here and noticed that one. I've known Joe through our small community here for a few years, he is one hell of a nice guy. I wouldn't say no one knows what he is going through but for many of us it is only something we would read about in books or see in movies.
Just wanting to make sure that people look at this properly and not pass judgement without first knowing the facts or at least considering that this is a man not unlike any of us..

[Neil]

JROCK said:

I'm just reading through old threads here and noticed that one. I've known Joe through our small community here for a few years, he is one hell of a nice guy. I wouldn't say no one knows what he is going through but for many of us it is only something we would read about in books or see in movies.
Just wanting to make sure that people look at this properly and not pass judgement without first knowing the facts or at least considering that this is a man not unlike any of us..

Excuse me? the facts are that when he applied for employment with BC Ferries, he neglected to tell them that he had been convicted of complicity in torturing and murdering seven people. I don't know about you jrock, but that does tend to make him somewhat unlike me, and no employer, made aware of such an oversight on the part of a new hire, would be likely to hire such a person. I don't give a d*** if he is nice to puppies and donates to Timmy's Telethon.

('FACTS' de-capitalized, 'complicity in' added to precede 'torturing and murdering')

[ferryrider42]

Be careful Neil, the newspaper blurlb at the start of this thread simply states that there was a connection with the deaths. We have no idea what that connection is.

[JROCK]

Convicted of what by whom Neil?
The application to work for bcferries asks if you have a criminal record, which Joe would not have. The Croatian war criminals list is pathetic and there are many many groups starting to sound off about just how unbelievable some of these cases are.
Joe's case was determined in a few moments with no representation from his side what so ever. Do you know what Joe did before fleeing the country with his young children and wife?

Sounds as though you've armed yourself with one side of the story, get some more factual information as a little information is a dangerous thing. Anyone willing to label another and pass judgment on him based on a newspaper article is a monster imo.

[Neil]

Ferryrider, it is utterly irrelevant. When you apply for a job, if you neglect to tell your employer that you have been convicted of war crimes, and that you are a fugitive from a fifteen year sentence, you are committing an act of dishonesty that would disqualify you from virtually any employment, outside of, perhaps the Hell's Angels.

[JROCK]

It's funny that you keep replying as though you have facts here. Pull your head out of your ass and do some homework on the situation. Just because I know Joe doesn't mean I think he shouldn't stand trial before his accussed I just think he deserves a fair shake.

My Grandfather bombed the hell out of Germany, my other one shot dozens of men in wartime.. I'm sure if Hilter had one the war they would have been called war criminals, he didn't... and they were called heros.
Don't be so foolish.

[ferryrider42]

You have a strong point Neil. But I’ve found the world doesn’t operate in simple black and white. I agree the charges are horrific, but like JRock pointed out the due process you and I enjoy here in Canada doesn’t always carry through to the rest of the world.

Now I haven’t done any research into this, have no idea of the Croatian legal system, and don’t even know the country’s history. So, for now I’m going to bow out of this conversation for the remainder of tonight and take your thoughts to bed.

[Low Light Mike]

JROCK said:

Pull your head out of your ass...

JROCK: that's "over the line" re conduct on this forum. We don't talk to each other like that, on this forum.

The English vocabulary is pretty large, and I'm sure there's less antagonistic ways to make your point.

Again, we don't tolerate that kind of comment here. You are welcome here, but not if you make comments like that.

[Hardy]

JROCK said:

My Grandfather bombed the hell out of Germany, my other one shot dozens of men in wartime.. I'm sure if Hilter had one the war they would have been called war criminals, he didn't... and they were called heros.

This statement here is the most poignant of this entire thread when taken in its isolated context.

How things are viewed and judged in regards to waretime, is entirely dependent on which side won. Especially when talking about conflicts older than the Korean War, spin was liberally applied (I use this as the cut off, because if you move forward to say the Vietnam War, the media coverage did not allow for quite so much unilateral spin anymore) by the VICTORS only.

Skipping over the already mentioned HITLER reference, let's take a quick look at everyone's favourite - the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If the Allies had lost the war, I can GUARANTEE you that there would have been a 'war crimes tribunal' convened.

There are several other examples that I could bring forward to add fuel to this fire, but I think that this clearly makes the case.

The problem with the "ethnic" wars that have taken place in the Balkan states, the former Soviet empire, and Africa is that there has been very limited media access during the events, and that the local terror mongers and military juanta, tribal/ethnic leaders have raised a cadre of scared child-soldiers etc. It makes it very difficult to dig out the truth. Records are routinely destroyed, if they are even kept at all, entire villages/hamlets are wiped off the face of the earth with every sole survivor executed so that there is no recorded history, media organizations are banned, killed, tortured or severely spoon fed what little information they can actually put out. Alliances also change frequently as it best serves the interests of this involved - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a key concept here. You could be shooting at one group one week, and later in the week, fighting along side of them.

Once these nasty local conflicts tend to be over, and worldwide media has unfetterred access to the area again, then the real spin begins. Images and history are easily manipulated when there is no immediate record of what really happened. Changing up a cleansing of a village is as easy as adding a uniform or two to some of the bodies, firing rounds from a different calibre weapon into some corpses and having a few "plants" give some false information. Post conflict is a good time to run any kind of personal vendetta and accuse whomever you want. If enough records were destroyed, or none kept at all, then you can say anything about anyone. Pay off an official or two, hold a kangaroo court, and all of a sudden you could convict Pope John Paul II of warcrimes (*note this is an extreme example, but I think you can see my point*).

I just thought I would weigh in on this. Please be aware that I have no ties to "Joe" or to BCFS or anyone else involved in this. I am more just weighing in on the spin side of things, and also to speak up on how one sided things can be. My point of reference on this is that the cousin of one of my school friends came out of the Balkans while this was going on; I knew the family really well. After the dust settled, members of his family were accused to be war criminals and convicted in absentia also, as they had since fled to Europe. I beleive (I have been out of touch with them) that they are still fighting to clear their names to this day, although they have no intention of ever going back to that region.

[Neil]

JROCK said:

My Grandfather bombed the hell out of Germany, my other one shot dozens of men in wartime.. I'm sure if Hilter had one the war they would have been called war criminals, he didn't... and they were called heros.
Don't be so foolish.

A week after Remembrance Day, and our guest is telling us that the only difference between Canadian veterans and Nazi war criminals is that our side won. Mr Horn, if you feel this guy is welcome here, you're more broadminded than I am.

With respect to Hardy and others, I think you're totally missing the point here. It's irrelevant how history is interpreted, it's irrelevant how nice Mr Budimcic seems, it's irrelevant how good a mechanic he is, and it's irrelevant whether his trial was fair or if he deserves 'a fair shake'. The point is that he applied for a job and failed to tell his prospective employer that he was a convicted war criminal, that he was a fugitive from a fifteen year prison sentence, and that Croatia was seeking his extradition to serve that sentence.
Does it really escape people that it is not okay to withhold that kind of information in a job interview? That is what this is about. If he had come clean in the interview, BC Ferries would have had the option to say, "Okay, Joe, you seem like a really nice guy, you seem eminently qualified for the position, and we don't trust the judicial system in Croatia, so we're going to give you a break and hire you. Welcome aboard." Of course, any HR person with a high profile company such as BC Ferries who hired such a candidate would probably themselves be summarily fired, so I can understand why Joe didn't disclose this wee blot on his record.

Josip Budimcic might seem like the nicest guy on Saltspring. He was fundamentally dishonest about an extremely serious conviction when he applied for a job, and the BC Human Rights Tribunal has agreed with his employer. So do I.

[Hardy]

I have not missed that point at all, Neil, and I resent that implication.

Go back and kindly re-read my post. I am not taking a position on the gentleman in question at all.

I was stating that how you view things depends on which side was victorious. I never defended the gentleman, his acts or his omissions.

MY entire post was about how things are interpretted, nothing further.

Before you tar people with the one-size-fits-all brush that you have next to your computer, please take the time to read the post in context rather than just getting your hackles up and firing out a post.

I understand that you are passionate about this topic, as you are about many others, but please take the time to read the entire post before making broad accusations.

I think that our previous "discussions" have proven that we are both willing to defend our beliefs and outlooks very vehemently. I, however, do not wish to be blamed or accused of something or to be seen to be doing something which I have not done.

[Neil]

My only point here has related to the original story- which was a question of whether BC Ferries was within their rights to terminate the employment of an applicant who withheld information of a very serious criminal matter. If people want to get into broad philosophical discussions about the interpretation of history, and how guilt is assigned in ethnic or other conflicts, fine, but that is not really the point here, and that was about the only 'accusation' I was directing at you.

[Northern Exploration]

With regards to your original question Neil, it depends on what is on the application form and questions asked during the hiring process. A common question is: "have you ever been convicted of a criminal offense for which you haven't received a pardon?" Misrepresenting yourself on your application of any kind is usually grounds for dismissal. People still lie and or stretch the truth a surprizing amount of times on resumes. Or if you are handling cash "Are you bondable?" Privacy covers certain areas but when you are dealing with the public some areas become reasonable questions. Submitting to a police check is becoming more common. For example if you are in the transportation sector after 9/11 much more scruitiny is being paid. All it takes now is to have a credible or even not so credible threat and staff maybe routinely checked up on. It is possible for example that there was credible chatter about ferries as a target and the RCMP did routine background checks on employees.

People looking for a job now had better think what they have online. The internet has many advantages but also disadvantages. Having comments about marijuana use on a facebook or myspace page that can easily be found and applying for a job where drug use is a problem (ie. Police) is a no brainer. But even other more subtle areas can have an impact.

[Neil]

How true. One wonders how a person could think that answering 'no', or witholding information about a criminal conviction could hold up for any length of time in our inter-connected world.

It's a given that most accused or convicted war criminals don't see themselves as such. No doubt Mr. Budimcic does not recognize the validity of the Croatian court's decision, so he perhaps thought he could answer 'truthfully' to the criminal question. In his own mind, at least.

[Northern Exploration]

I wonder if it was the court that Louise Arbour was part of. If so I would have a high confidence in the conviction. She was with the UN War Crimes Tribunal. I have a extremely high opinion of her.

If not then the conviction could be suspect depending on who was involved.

[JROCK]

Sorry about using the word ass here I assumed most of you would be able to handle such vulgarity.

Neil, explain to me how men fighting for what they believe in makes one side anymore noble will you?
A week after what day?
Is Nov.11 the day you set aside to remember the young men and women that were killed in a war that has been made glamorous through TV and folklore... war is war pal, no watter what side it is on and the symbolic one day we set aside to remember is a joke.. I know my grandfather remembered... he remembered every single day.
In total my family lost 5 men in that war and more in the war before that, you ask any of the surviving men how different and noble it was to be on one side or the other.
They were asked to do a job and they did it.. had Germany won the war your good damned right those men would be considered war criminals, they are killing the enemy that what happens in war.
However your right, that is not the point here, the point here is the this man has been accused of "war crimes" by the victors of the battle his country was in. He is to face a Canadian court and we will see what comes of it..
My point here is that with the information I have Joe has done is no different then what I would in that situation.. If the French decided to kill off all the English people here in Canada and were doing a good job of it what would you do? If you were English and your wife was French what would you do then?
your ordered you to kill your wife and children.. then what?
At least give the man a chance before you call him a monster...
I can not believe a forum that will not allow me to tell someone their head is in the ass but in the same thread will allow someone to label a man a monster with NO facts..

[Neil]

Sorry, jrock. Although they're completely irrelevant to this case, I find your amoral views on the Second World War so repugnant I'll have to decline any further exchanges with you, in the interest of civility.

[kylefossett]

My question to everybody on this board is going to detour a bit from this thread but I will ask it anyway. Why do we bother patronizing people like this character JROCK? Just ignore him. If we had of ignored his first comment then he would have left his page