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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 29, 2024 17:38:11 GMT -8
Am I missing how would two diesel vessels help with capacity right now?
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Post by Kahloke on Apr 29, 2024 18:18:23 GMT -8
Am I missing how would two diesel vessels help with capacity right now? No, it's not like they can quickly build 2 new ferries faster than the hybrid electrics being designed now. EGFleet has a good synopsis on that here: evergreenfleet.com/updates-4/As has been pointed out, the manufacturer of the diesel engines WSF used to procure is no longer in business, meaning new engines would have to be designed anyway, and that would mean starting over from scratch even if they were to modify the Olympic Flight 1 design. At the end of the day, it seems like that would delay the process, not expedite it. Designs are already underway for the new hybrid ferries. Best to stay the course and wait for their arrival. I'm honestly thinking we won't see Wishkah in service until 2030 at the earliest. I will be pleasantly surprised if we get it sooner (and am actually hoping that it will be sooner).
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 29, 2024 20:00:47 GMT -8
Am I missing how would two diesel vessels help with capacity right now? No, it's not like they can quickly build 2 new ferries faster than the hybrid electrics being designed now. EGFleet has a good synopsis on that here: evergreenfleet.com/updates-4/As has been pointed out, the manufacturer of the diesel engines WSF used to procure is no longer in business, meaning new engines would have to be designed anyway, and that would mean starting over from scratch even if they were to modify the Olympic Flight 1 design. At the end of the day, it seems like that would delay the process, not expedite it. Designs are already underway for the new hybrid ferries. Best to stay the course and wait for their arrival. I'm honestly thinking we won't see Wishkah in service until 2030 at the earliest. I will be pleasantly surprised if we get it sooner (and am actually hoping that it will be sooner). That what I was thinking, I wonder why people think it would help in the near term. Hopefully Washington State Ferries can accelerate a new vessel construction soon.
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Post by rwbsparks on May 1, 2024 19:37:44 GMT -8
No, it's not like they can quickly build 2 new ferries faster than the hybrid electrics being designed now. EGFleet has a good synopsis on that here: evergreenfleet.com/updates-4/As has been pointed out, the manufacturer of the diesel engines WSF used to procure is no longer in business, meaning new engines would have to be designed anyway, and that would mean starting over from scratch even if they were to modify the Olympic Flight 1 design. At the end of the day, it seems like that would delay the process, not expedite it. Designs are already underway for the new hybrid ferries. Best to stay the course and wait for their arrival. I'm honestly thinking we won't see Wishkah in service until 2030 at the earliest. I will be pleasantly surprised if we get it sooner (and am actually hoping that it will be sooner). That what I was thinking, I wonder why people think it would help in the near term. Hopefully Washington State Ferries can accelerate a new vessel construction soon. I imagine the thought process is that since Diesel-Electric is a mature technology we’ve been using for years, that we can just start building ferries tomorrow if they’re to be diesel powered. That of course ignores the RFP process, design reviews, production ramp ups, long lead items, and everything else that goes into starting construction on a class of new ferries. A timeline that says four years to get a new boat sounds long. Particularly for folks who haven’t seen normal service levels in four years already. The last time WSF was in crisis they got the KDTs from idea to in-service in three years, why can’t the state replicate that timeline in its current crisis? The new propulsion is an easy scapegoat for politicians to latch onto. In reality, the KDTs were a flawed off-the-shelf design that is basically useless outside of two routes.
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Post by Olympic Ferries on May 3, 2024 18:10:38 GMT -8
I've added the new Winter "B-3" Mon-Fri and SatSun drafts to my document here for those interested in reading over the modified Winter Schedule "final draft" that may see a few more modifications, but they're close to finalizing sailing times + allotments. - The only change to the Winter B-3 draft is adding a 0900 stop on the EB 0815 from Friday Harbor, closing the 0750/1110a EB Lopez gap. - The weekend B-3 draft has a few more drastic changes -> - 0735 west loads for Shaw and makes stop on EB trip at 0900 (previously was no Shaw stop here) -> Shaw EB gap is 0900 to 1615... Not ideal. - 1735 all stops west changes stopping pattern to A -> L -> O -> S -> FH - 1255 all stops east drops stop at Shaw, 1345 Orcas loads no Anacortes vehicles (use 1230 O->A direct) - 1455 FH -> O -> A adds a stop at Shaw at 1615 Also added in here is the Spring "Draft B", which is a modified version of "Draft A", which was presented in early April (see the spreadsheet for comments on that and everything), otherwise that schedule remains largely the same. - Minor changes to the #3 schedule to leave a few minutes earlier for a longer turnaround time in Friday Harbor - return #3 0810 FH -> Ana sailing adds an 0855 stop at Lopez (Lopez AM EB offers a 0630, 0735 and 0855) - 1005 #3 west was previously 0955, departs later to accommodate the earlier Lopez stop
- 1200 #3 Orcas ->Lopez -> Ana drops stop at Shaw on the eastbound trip; instead loads for Anacortes at 1125 versus earlier proposed 1205 - 1025 #1 east FH -> Ana drops previously proposed 1105 stop at Lopez; instead sails directly to Anacortes The major changes discussed in the previous meeting was the first presentation of the proposed Summer 2025 schedule, which at least for the most part, mirrors current service in almost all aspects of it. Outbound and return service patterns remain largely the same, with realistic crossing and turnaround times added in some key spots. Scheduling has also been spread out to help bring down stress on the terminal holding, especially in Friday Harbor and at Lopez. Some of the major summer changes include: - removing EB stop at Shaw on first sailing from Orcas, loads EB on 0700 WB stop; allowing the #3 vessel time to turn in Anacortes for the now 0855 to FH. - removing WB stop at Shaw on the proposed 1050 sailing from Anacortes to Orcas; Shaw traffic is exchanged in both directions on EB stop at 1235. - 0835 interisland departure from Friday Harbor sails east to Lopez, then all-stops west; this requires #2 0900 from Orcas to stop at Shaw/Lopez for interisland traffic (traffic loading at Orcas for Shaw/Lopez will be required to back-on) - next interisland departure at 1120 from FH changes routing, sails to Shaw, then Orcas, then Lopez, returning to FH direct at 1305. - final interisland boat departure from Lopez at 1945 now sails direct to Friday Harbor (board #2 at 2040 or #3 at 2225 for WB trips to Shaw/Orcas)- 1615 EB #2 Monday-Friday stop at Lopez from FH will load vehicles for Lopez and Anacortes (was previously a walk-off-on only stop, vehicle sailing gap was 1440-1820, is now 1440-1615-1835) - #2 retains PM Lopez only trip, leaving ANA 1725, returning from Lopez leaving at 1835. - #3 PM Changes: - 1845 westbound sails to Orcas *only* (Thursday-Monday) -> was previously Lopez only - return departs Orcas at 2000, adding an EB stop from Lopez at 2025 (allows for mid-evening Orc->Lop interisland stops) and arriving Anacortes 2110
- 2135 to Lopez, Shaw and Orcas is retained with a deadhead return (previously departed Anacortes at 2100) - 1945 #2 westbound to Shaw/Orcas adds a stop at Lopez (every day replacing the removed 1845) departing at 2040 (previously 1925 and was Shaw/Orcas only) - 2105 Shaw stop loads for Anacortes, departs Orcas at 2135, returning to Anacortes at 2230 - 2315 #4 westbound Fridays only sails to Friday Harbor *only* -> previously accommodated Lopez/Orcas traffic
Summer Vessel Assignments: #1 Yakima, #2 Chelan, #3 Samish, #4 Tillikum
At first glance, the biggest things I believe they did not accommodate here are: - reducing the 1645 to 2010 departure gap for WB from Anacortes to FH - Lopez AM capacity really struggles with a 0615 to 0945 gap... potentially could add stops elsewhere? - Pushing interisland traffic onto the 2040 Lopez WB may restrict traffic for Orcas/Shaw... Don't really know though. - same problem with the 0900 EB from Orcas... traffic backing on will take time. Turnaround time is 40 minutes though.
Document is accessible here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m-x8fbKaJb4AblQ_LUhoKRuWONTkh70mOFv-o_G0TAw/edit?usp=sharingLook for sheets: "WINTER B-3 M-F" "WINTER B-3 SaSu" "SPRING/FALL Draft B" "SUMMER Draft A" Happy reading! Feel free to comment on the spreadsheet though! The spreadsheet also contains information that commenters mentioned in the meeting if you're a little more curious about what people had to say.
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Post by paulvanb on May 26, 2024 10:51:21 GMT -8
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Post by Olympic Ferries on Jun 13, 2024 14:32:18 GMT -8
Will be curious to see how often this actually happens this summer but FVS will be getting a third unscheduled ship on the weekdays this summer, crewing and vessel availability pending. Seems like a great idea, and worked well last time. I hope they can pull it off for a better summer experience there.
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Post by lavalamp on Jun 13, 2024 19:15:24 GMT -8
The Weekly Update also mentioned a midday Vashon-Fauntleroy round trip on Fridays. Plugging that midday gap apparently, wonder why they can’t do it other days?
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Post by lavalamp on Jul 29, 2024 21:27:02 GMT -8
WSF posted the online open house for the San Juans schedule update today. It is open through August 23. At a glance, there aren’t any surprises compared to what Olympic Ferries posted from the task force meetings they’ve been having, but I haven’t had a chance to go deep into the proposed schedules yet. engage.wsdot.wa.gov/sji-draft-ferry-schedule/
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 30, 2024 7:30:44 GMT -8
WSF posted the online open house for the San Juans schedule update today. It is open through August 23. At a glance, there aren’t any surprises compared to what Olympic Ferries posted from the task force meetings they’ve been having, but I haven’t had a chance to go deep into the proposed schedules yet. engage.wsdot.wa.gov/sji-draft-ferry-schedule/It appears the spring/fall schedules have changed the most from the current version. Those were the schedules that really needed fixing so it makes sense. The proposed summer schedule isn't a lot different than what we have now, but it didn't need to be fixed as much; same with the winter schedule. The increased sailing times should help keep the boats on schedule, too. Here are the crossing times vs. the current printed timesAnacortes - Lopez: 45min (currently 40 min) Anacortes - Shaw/Orcas: 55min (currently 50 min) Anacortes - Friday Harbor: 1hr-10min (currently 1hr-5min) Lopez - Friday Harbor: 35min (currently 30min) Lopez - Shaw/Orcas: 20min (currently 15min) Inter island is mostly the same as now except for Friday Harbor to Orcas which will be 50min instead of 40min. I'm guessing the time increase allows for a routing around the back of Shaw instead of going through Wasp Pass. I think the current and previous schedules have always assumed the Wasp Pass route between Orcas and Friday Harbor.
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Post by lavalamp on Jul 31, 2024 23:02:51 GMT -8
WSF posted the online open house for the San Juans schedule update today. It is open through August 23. At a glance, there aren’t any surprises compared to what Olympic Ferries posted from the task force meetings they’ve been having, but I haven’t had a chance to go deep into the proposed schedules yet. engage.wsdot.wa.gov/sji-draft-ferry-schedule/It appears the spring/fall schedules have changed the most from the current version. Those were the schedules that really needed fixing so it makes sense. The proposed summer schedule isn't a lot different than what we have now, but it didn't need to be fixed as much; same with the winter schedule. The increased sailing times should help keep the boats on schedule, too. Here are the crossing times vs. the current printed timesAnacortes - Lopez: 45min (currently 40 min) Anacortes - Shaw/Orcas: 55min (currently 50 min) Anacortes - Friday Harbor: 1hr-10min (currently 1hr-5min) Lopez - Friday Harbor: 35min (currently 30min) Lopez - Shaw/Orcas: 20min (currently 15min) Inter island is mostly the same as now except for Friday Harbor to Orcas which will be 50min instead of 40min. I'm guessing the time increase allows for a routing around the back of Shaw instead of going through Wasp Pass. I think the current and previous schedules have always assumed the Wasp Pass route between Orcas and Friday Harbor. Highlights that I've pulled out:
Winter Weekdays - Lost two round-trips, which are the two Lopez-only trips. They made up for it by adding stops, so the net loss of stops is just one Lopez stop. But there's a capacity loss inherent to this, so the overall capacity "pie" just got smaller and has to be divided up differently.
The interisland has more Lopez-Friday Harbor direct sailings, skipping Shaw and Orcas. This will put more pressure on the mainland vessels to make up the gap, especially the proposed #1 3:05pm sailing. This is a recurring theme for the interisland.
Winter Weekend - Either by accident or design, the #2 is doing a lot of the all-stops trips to handle interisland traffic. The #2 in winter has been the Chelan/Sealth recently, so if that holds I guess it makes the most sense from a mainland capacity standpoint.
Spring/Fall - Major changes as noted. The proposed schedule uses the #1 better, which allows for a better alternating cadence of Lopez/Friday Harbor and Shaw/Orcas sailings. This also helps out the gap in midday service to Shaw and Orcas. Evenings are basically the same as the current schedule, which makes sense as the #1 is back from its Sidney trip by the later afternoon on the current schedule. Interesting that the #2's part-time early afternoon trip now goes to Lopez instead of Orcas. Perhaps this is a result of the increased travel times with no increase in service hours.
There are some substantial changes to interisland; it has a Lopez-Friday Harbor direct in each direction twice instead of only once, plus the Friday fueling change. This will force more reliance on mainland boats for Lopez-Shaw/Orcas interisland traffic. The proposed #3 10:05am Anacortes departure will carry a heavy interisland load from Lopez. The added Lopez stop on the 8:10am sailing from Friday Harbor will not be fun. That sailing is often pretty full, but they had to compensate for the 2nd Orcas trip not going to Lopez. I can't imagine Lopez and Friday Harbor people are too happy about this; that sailing is going to be slammed all the time.
Summer - Nothing too major here, mostly just spreading things out a bit for the updated travel times.
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Post by Olympic Ferries on Aug 3, 2024 10:28:37 GMT -8
It appears the spring/fall schedules have changed the most from the current version. Those were the schedules that really needed fixing so it makes sense. The proposed summer schedule isn't a lot different than what we have now, but it didn't need to be fixed as much; same with the winter schedule. The increased sailing times should help keep the boats on schedule, too. Here are the crossing times vs. the current printed timesAnacortes - Lopez: 45min (currently 40 min) Anacortes - Shaw/Orcas: 55min (currently 50 min) Anacortes - Friday Harbor: 1hr-10min (currently 1hr-5min) Lopez - Friday Harbor: 35min (currently 30min) Lopez - Shaw/Orcas: 20min (currently 15min) Inter island is mostly the same as now except for Friday Harbor to Orcas which will be 50min instead of 40min. I'm guessing the time increase allows for a routing around the back of Shaw instead of going through Wasp Pass. I think the current and previous schedules have always assumed the Wasp Pass route between Orcas and Friday Harbor. Highlights that I've pulled out:
Winter Weekdays - Lost two round-trips, which are the two Lopez-only trips. They made up for it by adding stops, so the net loss of stops is just one Lopez stop. But there's a capacity loss inherent to this, so the overall capacity "pie" just got smaller and has to be divided up differently.
The interisland has more Lopez-Friday Harbor direct sailings, skipping Shaw and Orcas. This will put more pressure on the mainland vessels to make up the gap, especially the proposed #1 3:05pm sailing. This is a recurring theme for the interisland.
Winter Weekend - Either by accident or design, the #2 is doing a lot of the all-stops trips to handle interisland traffic. The #2 in winter has been the Chelan/Sealth recently, so if that holds I guess it makes the most sense from a mainland capacity standpoint.
Spring/Fall - Major changes as noted. The proposed schedule uses the #1 better, which allows for a better alternating cadence of Lopez/Friday Harbor and Shaw/Orcas sailings. This also helps out the gap in midday service to Shaw and Orcas. Evenings are basically the same as the current schedule, which makes sense as the #1 is back from its Sidney trip by the later afternoon on the current schedule. Interesting that the #2's part-time early afternoon trip now goes to Lopez instead of Orcas. Perhaps this is a result of the increased travel times with no increase in service hours.
There are some substantial changes to interisland; it has a Lopez-Friday Harbor direct in each direction twice instead of only once, plus the Friday fueling change. This will force more reliance on mainland boats for Lopez-Shaw/Orcas interisland traffic. The proposed #3 10:05am Anacortes departure will carry a heavy interisland load from Lopez. The added Lopez stop on the 8:10am sailing from Friday Harbor will not be fun. That sailing is often pretty full, but they had to compensate for the 2nd Orcas trip not going to Lopez. I can't imagine Lopez and Friday Harbor people are too happy about this; that sailing is going to be slammed all the time.
Summer - Nothing too major here, mostly just spreading things out a bit for the updated travel times.
Most of these were covered previously overall, and I noted in my first set of winter notes that yes the #2 Winter is intentionally being used for interisland as the "smallest" boat usually.
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