For those who think Esquimalt is retiring

[queenofcowichan]

I got news for you accoding to the RBI on November 20 the Queen of Esquimalt is scheduld to be on The Mid Island Express replacing the Queen of New West.

[Retrovision]

No one that I know of is under the impression that she'll be gone before the end of the year.

[shipyard]

I have it on good authority that she will be on that route for five months.

[Mirrlees]

Great, this sounds like another trip coming up.

It's funny, Flugel Horn says everytime he rides the Esquimalt he thinks it's his last trip on her but, the opportunity comes up for another ride.

[Low Light Mike]

mirrlees60 said:

Great, this sounds like another trip coming up.

It's funny, Flugel Horn says everytime he rides the Esquimalt he thinks it's his last trip on her but, the opportunity comes up for another ride.

I've had 4 such "last rides" on Esquimalt, since May 2006. It's not that I thought she would be retired after May 2006, but I thought that perhaps I wouldn't be able to "seize the opportunity" to travel on her route-of-the-week again.

So the extension of my actual last-trip date is a combination of her slow death, as well as my increased efforts to travel on her, wherever she may be sailing to.

[Scott]

It's actually a ploy by BC Ferries to get Flugel's money:) He's single handedly keeping the Esquimalt afloat! Thank you Flugel!

[Dane]

It might just be me, but I get the feeling even BC Ferries doesn't know

[Nick]

I just found out today that the esquimalt will definitely be gone before next summer. I have heard at work that BCF has hired a delivery contractor to take her to India next year.

Sounds like she is headed to Alang like her big sister.

[Mirrlees]

Hmmm, the really socially responsible thing to do??

[Curtis]

I had a feeling that she would do one more job before they retired her for good.

coxnnick said:

I just found out today that the esquimalt will definitely be gone before next summer. I have heard at work that BCF has hired a delivery contractor to take her to India next year.

Sounds like she is headed to Alang like her big sister.

Well if that's the Case get ready for the R.I.P. Queen of Esquimalt 1963-2008 across everyone's sig.

[Mac Write]

If it's true and Esqui is being sent to Alang where people will be paid $1/day to break her up, I think it's time to get the word out to the general public about how BCFC is sending a de-commisioned ferry to a third world country where safety standards don't exist to scrap the ferry. I think the Media might find the story interesting and it could put pressure on the government, ( a 50.1% voting shareholder in BCFC) to have her safely scrapped.

[stvfishy]

macwrite said:

If it's true and Esqui is being sent to Alang where people will be paid $1/day to break her up, I think it's time to get the word out to the general public about how BCFC is sending a de-commisioned ferry to a third world country where safety standards don't exist to scrap the ferry. I think the Media might find the story interesting and it could put pressure on the government, ( a 50.1% voting shareholder in BCFC) to have her safely scrapped.

A few thoughts on this:
1)Saw on the mother corp. how a great lakes freighter was sent to Alang. It was sold (on paper) and given a flag of convenience before being towed away. Apparently, in Canada, it is illegal or strongly discouraged by government (unlikely to get approval) to send to ships under Canadian flag to Alang. Any government in Canada (provincial/federal) knows directly/indirect association with this would be political suicide ->their not stupid.
2)Someone recently posted on how those who bought vessels from BCF were coming back asking for money to preserve these priceless artifacts. Your kidding right? That's the whole purpose of selling ->let someone else do as they wish ->your problem now ->remove from your concern. No strings attached works both ways.
3)Wasn't there a recent post that arrangements were made to sell the Esquimalt/Vancouver to someone who made appointments in Turkey? Is shipping breaking in Turkey any better? Where is a good place?
4)There is no real ship breaking industry in North America. However, people have their eye on the San Francisco Bay ghost fleet(and elsewhere in the States?) on the order of 200-300+ plus ships that will eventually have to be chopped. How is the US government gonna handle that? A make work project? Or not... Is it even possible to create a safe workplace environment for this industry in North America?
5) ;)Screw it. Lets scuttle them all...

Question for Mac Write: With the sun setting on some vessels, what is your proposal for dignified retirements? - without them hitting the evil chop shops? I don't have an answer.

[benoid]

If its true shes going to replace the new west for the winter,
i am going to have to make an effort to ride the esquie one last time, she was a true workhorse.

[Low Light Mike]

You know, I think I agree (partly) with Mac. I think that there should be some grassroots outrage at the idea of a BC Ferry being scrapped at Alang.

Now I'm not talking about a situation where BCFS sells the ship to someone, and that new owner later decides to scrap it at Alang. I'm talking about a situation where BCFS knowingly plans to have the ship scrapped at Alang.

I think that a large ship owned by a western-world Gov't body is not something that can just be "thrown away" without the old owners ensuring that it is disposed of in an environmentally-friendly and socially-ethical way.

I'm not sure how to ensure that it doesn't go to Alang (or someplace with similar issues). Perhaps the upcoming BC Ferries AGM would be a great place to ask this question: "Does BC Ferries have a concern about it's former ships being scrapped at a place like Alang, and what will BC Ferries do to ensure that it's former vessels don't harm the environment or put scrap workers at risk?"

This type of questioning is new-territory for me, so I'm interested in other points of view re this issue.

Is it ethical for a quasi Gov't business to throw away a major asset, and not to be concerned about what happens to it, after it's thrown away?

ps: I realise that nothing has been said that Esquimalt or any other BC Ferry is going to Alang. So these comments of mine can be filed under "what if?".

[Northern Exploration]

There used to be some ship breaking done somewhere on the Welland Canal. It was quite a few years ago that I saw it. It was closer to the Lake Erie bottom of the route. Mostly Lakers rather than Ocean going ships. Not sure if that is because the Lakers aren't suited for towing overseas.

There is also the ghost fleet in the James River in Virginia. Hundreds of Liberty Ships and other naval and merchant marine vessels tied up waiting. I can't imagine any war breaking out that would require reactivating any of them. Smaller quantities exist in Bremerton, Philadelphia and other Naval bases etc. I think I read somewhere that the prices of steel and metals has made scrapping the fleets very worthwhile. There is a huge amount of work there and huge environmental concerns. I know when the ships are mothballed anything sensitive etc. is removed but I don't think they remove anything environmentally sensitive like asbestos. If that happens the backlog is going to be unbelieveable.

I am against any BC Ferry being sent to Alang. Any of the other places are not any better. It would be rather easy to sell a ship to someone who claims to be going to broker it for sale in the second or third world and after it sitting for a while send it for disposal.

[Scott]

Some people on this forum have seen a documentary (there may be more than one) on the life of workers at Alang. The one I watched was called "Shipbreakers" and I got it out of the Burnaby Library. While the shipbreaking yard offers "better" wages than workers could get elsewhere, its done with no regard for the workers safety, health, or well being. And done with no regard to the environment.

On the other hand, probably every one of us is wearing clothes made in sweatshops, using electronics made by mistreated underpaid workers, eating and drinking food picked by slaves and causing widespread pollution, and using oil "mixed with blood". So do we hold BC Ferries to a higher standard?

However, I think we live in a time when people are becoming more aware of where and how things are made and produced at a global scale. In general, I think people in British Columbia are trying to find ways of limiting our "ecological footprint" and our dependence on foreign cheap labour. There's still a long ways to go, for sure.

So I don't think BC Ferries should be let off the hook at all. Not because I don't like seeing old ferries scrapped.. I know it has to happen most of the time. But they should attempt to do it the right way.

Interesting to ponder the "food chain". Build the ships in Germany, use them in BC, scrap them in India.

[lest69]

stvfishy said:

macwrite said:

4)There is no real ship breaking industry in North America. However, people have their eye on the San Francisco Bay ghost fleet(and elsewhere in the States?) on the order of 200-300+ plus ships that will eventually have to be chopped. How is the US government gonna handle that? A make work project? Or not... Is it even possible to create a safe workplace environment for this industry in North America?

There is a very active shipbreaking industry in Brownsville, Texas. There is a steady stream of vessels from the reserve fleets to Brownsville. The US Navy has also been sinking an increasing number of vessels recently. Disposing of ships as part of an exercise allows them to get rid of the ship, while giving current crews experience. There have already been a lot of ships removed from the reserve fleets and disposed of, either by sinking or recycling. The navy is constantly decommissioning ships, though, so the reserve fleets probably don't get smaller very quickly.

[Mac Write]

I just don't think it's right to send the Esquitmalt to Alang without asbestos being removed first and other as hazzardess materials. Why not sell it to FiveTwo he would love to strip her (and give us tons of tours). Still why not bring this to the local media's attention. Wold of BCF when run by the government have done the same? BCFC seems to be doing it as a profit keeping move while if BCF was still run by the government this wouldn't be happening.

[Mirrlees]

lest69 said:

stvfishy said:

macwrite said:

4)There is no real ship breaking industry in North America. However, people have their eye on the San Francisco Bay ghost fleet(and elsewhere in the States?) on the order of 200-300+ plus ships that will eventually have to be chopped. How is the US government gonna handle that? A make work project? Or not... Is it even possible to create a safe workplace environment for this industry in North America?

There is a very active shipbreaking industry in Brownsville, Texas. There is a steady stream of vessels from the reserve fleets to Brownsville. The US Navy has also been sinking an increasing number of vessels recently. Disposing of ships as part of an exercise allows them to get rid of the ship, while giving current crews experience. There have already been a lot of ships removed from the reserve fleets and disposed of, either by sinking or recycling. The navy is constantly decommissioning ships, though, so the reserve fleets probably don't get smaller very quickly.

That was done to HMCS Huron a few months ago. Sending her to the bottom in a live-fire exercise off the coast of Vancouver Is.

[Coastal Drought]

I saw the news report on that last month. It (the Huron) went down quicker than expected.

[BreannaF]

So far there are a lot of ideas here for what not to do with the Esquimalt. I think we could get a lot of support here for "don't send it to Alang or similar". But we really need to figure out what should be done. It's certainly easier to not do something if there is an alternative.

Possibilities:

1) Scrap it in a 3rd world country. Because their lives are worth less than ours. I don't think so.

2) Scrap it in a first world country with environmental standards. So the question here: Just how much more will it cost to do this?

3) Have the naval fleet from Esquimalt, BC use it for target practice and bury her at sea! How fitting! My question: How is this any more environmentally friendly than just letting it rot at a dock in BC until all the environmentally bad things all float away in the sea? Are we not just dumping the environmental mess into the ocean? Maybe it is no more a problem than letting the same stuff rot the environment in India or Turkey. But it does save on not harming the slave labourers.

4) Do they still turn ferries into fish processing centres? Well, it was worth a try. There must be something it could be recycled into.

5) Donate it to a ferry museum system. In WSF terms, it's still a young ship! No,wait. It wouldn't fit into the Port Townsend dock. Never mind.

Anyway, we have something of an idea of what not to do. I'm against sending it to Alang, too. But, something will happen to it. What?

[Northern Exploration]

Bryan re your #3. They still have to remove all contaminants before doing the bombardment/target practice. It would be cleaned of all oil, diesel and other fuels. All asbestos and any other similar items removed. Any unnecessary metal/equipment is removed due to the high costs of metals right now. Also if it is suck at a depth that divers can reach it, they remove anything that can catch on the divers gear such as wiring etc. Once it is down to the bare hull, then it is sunk. Similar to the group above that sinks Canadian surplus frigates/destroyers and the one 737 aircraft. I am not sure what the financial state of the Artificial Reef Society is and whether they are ready to purchase another ship yet.

I would imagine that anything that is easy to strip would be removed by BC Ferries or someone local before sending it on to a ship breakers. I am thinking electronics and kitchen appliances etc. Unless of course those items are part of the breaking contract.

[Political Incorrectness]

If we could get an exemption from the Jones Act, she would be perfect for Edmonds to Kingston to help alleviate the weekend rush.

[Scott]

Would BC Ferries have any grounds to ask the government to help cover additional expenses to properly dispose of hazardous materials on the ships since they had them built?

[hwy19man]

ferrymaniac101 said:

If we could get an exemption from the Jones Act, she would be perfect for Edmonds to Kingston to help alleviate the weekend rush.

Great idea. Many lovers of the V class would be going to Kingston for the weekend.