Truck falls off Nanaimo Harbour ferry ramp

[Low Light Mike]

What are the 9 vessels that have these RAD's ?

- Powell River Queen
- Mayne Queen
- Bowen Queen
- Quinsam
- Howe Sound Queen
- Quinitsa?
- Kahloke?
- Kwuna?
- Klitsa?

I presume that the Capilano & Cumberland have "Z-Drives", not RAD, and that this is somewhat different in design?

[Scott (Former Account)]

flugelhorn said:

What are the 9 vessels that have these RAD's ?

- Powell River Queen
- Mayne Queen
- Bowen Queen
- Quinsam
- Howe Sound Queen
- Quinitsa?
- Kahloke?
- Kwuna?
- Klitsa?

I presume that the Capilano & Cumberland have "Z-Drives", not RAD, and that this is somewhat different in design?

The Howe Sound Queen does not have RAD's installed...

**EDIT**
I believe the Chilliwack would be the ship in this group (ships w/out warning systems for 'erratic' RAD's).

The Skeena Queen, Capilano, Cumberland and Kuper should all have warning systems installed for their RAD's...

[Retrovision]

flugelhorn said:

I presume that the Capilano & Cumberland have "Z-Drives", not RAD, and that this is somewhat different in design?

Unless things have changed since Gary and Patritia Bannerman's 1985 book "The Ships of Bristish Columbia: An Illustrated History of the British Columbia Ferry Corporation", I'm fairly certain that it's the Powell River Class vessels, as in the Powell River Queen, the Mayne Queen and the Bowen Queen, that have the Z-Drives instead of RADs, and not the Queen of Capilano and Queen of Cumberland, the vessels who have had RAD problems recently. If I remember correctly (it's somewhere in these clips: www.youtube.com/results?search_type=related&search_query=ferries%20BC%20BCFS%20ferry%20ro/ro%20bc-ferry%20bc-ferries), according to David Hahn at the last Annual General Meeting, these RADs will be replaced with custom-built units on the Queen of Capilano, with the Cappie's old RAD units going to the Cumberland in the Southern Gulf Islands, a slower paced route that would be better suited for maintenance while in-service.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Okay, from what I've gleaned from investigating this a bit is the following ferries have RADs:

Kuper
Queen of Chilliwack
Queen of Capilano
Queen of Cumberland
Quinsam
Mayne Queen
Bowen Queen
Powell River Queen
Skeena Queen

This is nine, but I'm not sure if I should include the Kuper in TC's count of nine. Is there one I missed?

[Low Light Mike]

I think that myself & some others have mixed up Z's and RAD's....which was prompted by a mixup in the press release.

I too recall the Z-drive being mentioned in Bannerman's book...which means that Z-drive is on the 9 ships, and it's the new thang "RAD" that's on the new ships like Cumberland.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Let's try to alleviate some of the confusion.

Z-drive definition - mechanical drive
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-drive

Azimuth thruster definition - electric drive
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuth_thruster

Both have "pods" allowing 360 degrees of rotation, but the first is driven by an engine through linkage, the second by a motor powered by a generator (I'm using the rigorous definition of engine (combustion) and motor (electric) here).

Someone else might be able to correct me on this, but some quick research gave me the impression you will only find azimuth thrusters on vessels built since the early 1990s.

[NMcKay]

Heres a K Class Look at RAD's

Klitsa - Electric Rotation Control, Direct Drive, (electric Rotation as in direct Conenection Electric Engine)

Kulleet - Mechanical Rotation Control, Direct Drive (Mechanical meaning a Gear/Mechanical Motor Unit)

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Okay, let me make a correction to what I said before.
An azimuth thruster uses a motor mounted directly in the pod itself as opposed to a remotely placed motor connected to the pod in a similar manner to a Z Drive. I believe the latter was used prior to the former (??). Both azimuth thrusters and Z drives are RAD units. Hmmm...I now know I have been in the US a while...thinking zee, not zed. ;D

harbourlynxkid said:

Heres a K Class Look at RAD's

Klitsa - Electric Rotation Control, Direct Drive, (electric Rotation as in direct Conenection Electric Engine)

Kulleet - Mechanical Rotation Control, Direct Drive (Mechanical meaning a Gear/Mechanical Motor Unit)

I'm curious to know how the mechanical rotation control works. Is it a hydraulic system turning a shaft which in turn drives a gear on the RAD, turning it? If so, is the joystick system used for this, i.e. remote electric pumps driving the hydraulics, or is it directly coupled?

[Neil]

cascade said:

Given that it has happen 9 times in the past and now we reach 10 times.

Surely that is 10 times to many times for either a mechanical breakdown or for human error - which ever it is - this has to stop.

.

It happened in 2002 on the Bowen Queen, and now on the Quinsam. What were the other eight incidents?

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

evergreenfleet said:

Miller said there have been other incidents that have been equally dramatic without a vehicle going into the water.

“There’s the Bowen Queen twice that I know of, the Skeena Queen,” she said.

“There’s a number of vessels where they will sort of just pop out of the dock and nobody can replicate what happened. The crews now call them Gremlins because they can’t actually figure out exactly what is wrong with the electronics system.”

Miller said one time she watched the Bowen Queen come out of the dock and do doughnuts in Crofton harbour.

The count would be four including the incidents mentioned above, twice for the Bowen Queen, once for the Skeena Queen, and once for the Quinsam. Still not ten, though.

[Deleted]

Lets not get so confused over the names of the units. They pretty well all do the same purpose.

The Cumbi and Cappi are really the only unique systems in the fleet. They have R.A.D's coupled directly to Electric motors (not engines) as well as they have the ability to change the pitch of their propellors. They use an electic over hydraulic steering system which is used to swivel the units.

The rest of the vessels are all R.A.D's (call them Z-drives, Z pellers, whatever their brand name if you like) are driven by diesel engines. The steering system again is a electric over hydraulic system.

there are no pods in thefleet which are electically driven units with the motor usually placed down with the prop in the pod. These usually pull the water rather than push as well.

[Deleted]

Electric over hydraulic meaning this....(simplified version)

Hydraulic pump(s) either coupled directly to an engine or driven by electric motor(s) pumping oil in a circuit.

Electric signal from wheelhouse controls a contol valve in the circuit to allow oil to now travel to a Hydraulic motor which in turn mechanically drives the swivel gear in side the unit allowing it to rotate or azimuth if you like. This hydraulic motor can be fed in either direction thus allowing unit to be rotated either direction. The control valve will determine this upon info that it recieves from control head in the W/H

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

noleaks said:

The Cumbi and Cappi are really the only unique systems in the fleet. They have R.A.D's coupled directly to Electric motors (not engines) as well as they have the ability to change the pitch of their propellors. They use an electic over hydraulic steering system which is used to swivel the units.

So, if I am understanding correctly, both these ships have a motor driven propulsion system, but the motors are not directly mounted in the RAD, as would be the case with an azimuth thruster. They are more like a "Z-drive".

noleaks said:

The rest of the vessels are all R.A.D's (call them Z-drives, Z pellers, whatever their brand name if you like) are driven by diesel engines. The steering system again is a electric over hydraulic system.

Thanks, that answers my question about how the steering controls work. I figured that must be the case, I just wanted some clarification.

noleaks said:

there are no pods in thefleet which are electically driven units with the motor usually placed down with the prop in the pod. These usually pull the water rather than push as well.

This is interesting. I would assume the ability to service the motors in the Capilano and the Cumberland without having to dry-dock is more cost effective than the added mechanical complexity introduced by not having the motors mounted directly in the RADs.

Thanks for the input.

[NMcKay]

i think the cappie and cumbie have holes in the deck to let them access the RAD units. just like the Skeena Queen

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

harbourlynxkid said:

i think the cappie and cumbie have holes in the deck to let them access the RAD units. just like the Skeena Queen

My thought on this was more about servicing the motors of they were at the bottom of the RAD, eg:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Siemens_Schottel_Propulsor.jpg
If you needed to do service work on the motor in this configuration, I would think it would be difficult.

[NMcKay]

i dont think thats the actual RAD unit on the Cappie, they have a rad unit similar to the K Class. but with controllable blades,i would assume that they would be serviceable from the deck, just like the k class, where they only need a crane to service them.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

harbourlynxkid said:

i dont think thats the actual RAD unit on the Cappie, they have a rad unit similar to the K Class. but with controllable blades,i would assume that they would be serviceable from the deck, just like the k class, where they only need a crane to service them.

I believe you are correct on this, according to what noleaks said.

After thinking about the construction completion date of both the Cappie and the Cumbie, it is not surprising they don't have azimuth thrusters as I believe this technology was still pretty new then. I am still interested to know if there is cost benefits to either forms of the motor driven RADs once all factors are taken into account.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Has anyone come across stories of erratic behaviour in RADs anywhere else? I've been looking around, but have not been able to dig up any other reports of this type of incident besides the BC Ferries stories.

[Retrovision]

tsawwassenterminal said:

flugelhorn said:

I presume that the Capilano & Cumberland have "Z-Drives", not RAD, and that this is somewhat different in design?

Unless things have changed since Gary and Patritia Bannerman's 1985 book "The Ships of Bristish Columbia: An Illustrated History of the British Columbia Ferry Corporation", I'm fairly certain that it's the Powell River Class vessels, as in the Powell River Queen, the Mayne Queen and the Bowen Queen, that have the Z-Drives instead of RADs, and not the Queen of Capilano and Queen of Cumberland, the vessels who have had RAD problems recently. If I remember correctly (it's somewhere in these clips: www.youtube.com/results?search_type=related&search_query=ferries%20BC%20BCFS%20ferry%20ro/ro%20bc-ferry%20bc-ferries), according to David Hahn at the last Annual General Meeting, these RADs will be replaced with custom-built units on the Queen of Capilano, with the Cappie's old RAD units going to the Cumberland in the Southern Gulf Islands, a slower paced route that would be better suited for maintenance while in-service.

Correction: I stand corrected - it has been pointed out to me that "RAD" is basically the the modern-standard way of saying "Z-Drive"

[NMcKay]

RAD -- Right Angle Drive

The Cumbie and Cappie HAVE Custom Made Rad Units, BC Ferries own the only ones in the world

[Ferryman]

Queen of Capilano RAD.




More at:
www.pbase.com/bcfmwu/queen_of_capilano&page=1

[NMcKay]

as you can see in the photos, they are accessable from the deck. they would just need a forklift to pull them out byt the looks of it.

[Deleted]

Not a forklift but a crane. If I remember correct the Nigata ZP-3A RADS on the Skeena are about 20 tons dry and 21 tons with oil. The Cumbi Cappys are Ulstein (Now Rolls Royce) and have a CP prop so I would assume weight would be a little higher. Ask Engineer, he knows.

[Deleted]

Some pics of the Skeena's Niigata's....

[Retrovision]

harbourlynxkid said:

RAD -- Right Angle Drive

The Cumbie and Cappie HAVE Custom Made Rad Units, BC Ferries own the only ones in the world

And, according to David Hahn, the Cappie will get a new set of custom made RAD units.