C-class in Active Pass

[Hardy]

Pardon my seeming lack of ignorance. I read (and searched) back thru the relevant threads, but I am not finding any "concrete" information.
Searching the web only seems to have served to confuse me further as I was unable to find substantiating information...

I am left only to make assumptions (you can all save telling me how *THIS* will turn out, I already know.... )

Furthermore, I was unable to track down very much information on the bally-hoo'd grounding of the 'Queen of Alberni' in Active Pass in '79.

So a quick recap of what I have learned so far: C's are generally not run thru Active Pass due to the non-fuel-efficient mode in which they need to be operated to safely transit Active Pass.
C's are not BANNED from this route, but rather other vessels are preferred due to operating efficiency.

So, remembering that I am not as technically savvy as some of those on the forums, what are the design limitations (not flaws) that make the C's less-than-desirable to operate thru Active Pass?

Where can I find more information about the 1979 grounding of the 'Queen of Alberni'?

Thanks in advance for any insight and information...

[Northern Exploration]

Happy Birthday and good summary Hardy. That is all I have been able to piece together too. Sometimes hard to sort through the opinion and concrete info. Active Pass has always been a controversial route since and even recently in the Morffit Safety Report.

[Dane]

The C's operate in two modes, I always get the two mixed up but through Active Pass, (and when conducting a series of other manuevers) the C Class are engaged into the mode that the membership of this forum seems to have (wrongly) adopted the name of "cost ineffective," for. Really it means both engines are engaged, in one of the old threads there is a diagram.

The C Class also have deeper hulls than the V (and S).

People always site the accident of the Alberni as evidence that a C Class is inappropriate for the pass, but read the report, or even a summary and you will note:
- The accident would have happened with ANY major vessel in the BCFS fleet at the time;
- The Captain took full responsibility for the incident and he made no attempt to blame the vessel, but rather said he didn't appropriatly take into account it's breadth.

The Queen of Surrey was also quite content on the route for quite some years after the accident. Her reassignment was demographically based (changes in schedules/assignments to adapt to changing traffic patterns).

[Kam]

dane said:

People always site the accident of the Alberni as evidence that a C Class is inappropriate for the pass, but read the report, or even a summary and you will note:
- The accident would have happened with ANY major vessel in the BCFS fleet at the time;
- The Captain took full responsibility for the incident and he made no attempt to blame the vessel, but rather said he didn't appropriatly take into account it's breadth.

Can you post a link to that report? I've been looking and have had no luck finding it online.

Thanks.

[Dane]

Nope, I read it at school.

Post by Kyle Fosset from 2004

it is not that bc ferries does not allow the c class ferries to transit active pass it is transport canada(tc) that does not allow them. the c class ferry must go into mode 2 by law to make this passage, to do so they have to be in this mode before the pass and this is about 2 miles out on the strait side. this slow down the trip for the ferry and they lose time in the crossing. the findings by tc after the alberni hit the rocks in active pass was that she was in mode 1 and this limited her mobility. they continued to use c class ferries on this route after the accident but in mode to and found this to slow them down. and now when you see a c class at swartz bay it is usually there because it just came out of the shipyard in esquimalt and is getting ready to go back into service. somebody said this is where the crew will put their cars on. the c class will then go to the strait by way of south of saturna.

Some guy from Yahoo! Groups

the TSB investigation revealed just how
little steering control the C's had while in mode 1 operation. This
was a significant factor in the grounding of the Alberni. Transport
Canada immediately ruled at that time that the C's could no longertransit the pass in mode 1, that they must slow up the vessel andengage mode 2 prior to entering the pass (about 1 mile out). This mode of operation reduces the vessels top speed, and burns more fuel.

* I assume this is where the inefficiency stuff started, that or some one just realized the C Class burn a lot of fuel in their current positions, added that to this, and wha la!

... and something I said that I forgot about, and is very logical:

If the Fast Ferries worked the #2s out of Tsa and Swartz would be C Class

... oh and this from 2003! (In an unrelated discussion)

It was commin for BC Ferries to Send the Queen of Coquitlam or Surrey on to route 1 during the Summer months before the Spirit Class ships were built.

[Hardy]

This is **THE WHOLE PROBLEM** No one can cite me the source of this report that says this about mode-1 (or mode-2). I cannot find any citation regarding the TSB report either. Can _ANYONE_ elaborate on this at all please???

[Hardy]

Okay folks. Quoting something that someone else on these very forums has said is **NOT** citing a source. While I am not trying to say that the people that post on these forums are not experts (far from it, there are a lot of you here who have more than enough knowledge to be considered experts, if you are not so in your 'regular' life).

As I think I made clear in my initial post, I hold no opinion about whether C-class ships are suited for Active Pass or not. I want to see _WHY_ they are not, if indeed they are not. I CANNOT FIND any information on this other than hearsay!

PLEASE provide me with links or citations or references so that I can look up the cold hard information myself. Thanks.

[Northern Exploration]

As close as I have been able to get so far. From Hansard Wednesday July 2, 1980 afternoon session. (Hansard is the transcript of procedings and in this case Victoria)

Honorable Mr. Fraser.
"I'm not sure what the member for Mackenzie was referring to when he said there had been an internal study regarding the unfortunate accident that the Queen of Alberni had in August 1979 in Active Pass. I think I should say that all items like that are fully investigated. But a lot of other people are in the act as well, including Transport Canada. Transport Canada did a study of Active Pass in conjunction with the B.C. Ferry Corporation and the transport analysis branch. It's my information that the present Minister of Transport has that report on Active Pass on his desk; it's his report. They recommend some changes that have impact on the operation of B.C. Ferry Corporation. I'm not aware that the report has been made public; it's the responsibility of the Minister of Transport for Canada to release it."

If you want to wade through it www.leg.bc.ca/hansard/32nd2nd/32p_02s_800702p.htm .
There is a lot of the usual parlimentary zoo going on but lots of the BC Ferries at the time. I think someone referenced the same day in another thread about the Princess Margarite and the Queen of the North.

I will keep looking.

I have yet to find the report itself online. It may be that the report once existed online but like many from a number of years ago was removed to save storage space at that time. It likely is in written format and unless someone has scanned it and put it online somewhere we may not find it. It may mean (yikes) a trip to a library. Personally I can't remember the last time I was in one lol.

Maybe someone on the board who works for BC Ferries can enlighten us.

[WettCoast]

Small correction - I do not believe that the Queen of Surrey II ever operated on Route 1. It was, in fact, the Queen of Oak Bay. It operated on Route 1 for only a few years immediately after it entered service. Then, when all the V's had been lifted, it was moved out to Routes 2 or 3.

[Northern Exploration]

As I feared the Transport Safety Board only goes back to 1991 in their online archive and Transport Canada to 1995. So unless someone has scanned the earlier reports and put them somewhere accessible and not overly obscure it is a deadend since the official government postings won't help. Some of the newspapers may have it but you have to be a subscriber to go back in time.

[WettCoast]

There is an account of the Alberni grounding in the Bannerman book The Ships of British Columbia. Though it is not the official detailed information one might like it states that the primary cause of the accident was that the ferry's master had made an error in judgment. Contributing causes were that this was the first time the captain in question had taken a C class through Active Pass. Although he had made hundreds of transits in V's and Sidney class vessels he was not used the the handling characteristics of the C class hull. In addition, the pass was busy with small recreational boats, and there was another ferry transiting the pass going in the other direction. In order to avoid all the other traffic he steered the vessel too far to the right misjudging his hull clearance with respect to Collinson Reef. The tide likely was another contributing factor.

I believe that this accident happened before Canada's Transportation Safety Board came into existence. At that time major transport accidents were investigated by the federal Department of Transport. Others on this forum may be able to correct me here because I am uncertain about this.

[WettCoast]

The following is from my brother's extensive collection of newspaper clippings and other such stuff. It sheds a little more light on what was going on at the time of the Alberni's grounding.

DOT Collection - 1979

[Dane]

hardy said:

This is **THE WHOLE PROBLEM** No one can cite me the source of this report that says this about mode-1 (or mode-2). I cannot find any citation regarding the TSB report either. Can _ANYONE_ elaborate on this at all please???

If you live in Surrey take something with proof of residence (driver's license) and request it at SFU, it's at the Burnaby Mnt campus. That is how I read it, and that's why I get so annoyed with this reoccuring topic.

I think the Van Public Library might also have it; their records are very incomplete.

That's the only place you'll find "primary information," in the strict definition. Perhaps, like me, you'll be dissappointed at the lack of great "story" behind it all. Bus fans have (had) their belief that low floor buses couldn't run on the North Shore, and ferry fans have the C Class and Active Pass

[hergfest]

I think that the V-Class are still on Route 1 is scheduling. If the V-Class ran Route 2, like the Esquimalt, they have to alter the schedule. But on Route 1 the V-class can keep the two hour schedule.

[Hardy]

Ahhhh, now details are starting to come out! Yeah!!

Thanks for the clippings from the DOT collection. I was unaware hat there were still docs that exist ONLY in libraries and have not found their way onto/into the net.... I have also found the following, but am a bit frusterated by the lack of information:

mikan3.archives.ca/pam/public_mikan/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=1249771&

" Investigation into shipping casualties - Grounding and abandonment of the ferry QUEEN OF ALBERNI in Active Pass, BC, August 9, 1979

File Part of: Registry files, Classified"



___CLASSIFIED___ ? Say What?!

FYI as it were .....

[Dane]

Hahahahaha "Classified" ??

... and yet available for public consumption?

Good times never end

[Hardy]

dane said:

Hahahahaha "Classified" ??

... and yet available for public consumption?

Good times never end

You begin to sense my frusteration. I didn't wade into this topic lightly, FYI. I did read the previous threads on this topic and like I said in my "thread starting" post, I am just looking for the information, citations, articles etc to support the positions. Some of those have come forward, others renewed, others remain ... errr ... "classified". At least with the age of the incident I am trying to find information on, they won't have to break out a shredder. Back in those days, the purple ink of the mimeograph should have all but faded now making the documents unreadable! ;D ;D

[Northern Exploration]

Classified? Maybe there was an unnamed submarine in the pass and it is all hush hush. ;D

[Hardy]

pnwtraveler said:

Classified? Maybe there was an unnamed submarine in the pass and it is all hush hush. ;D

A much more likely scenario would involve an 'un-named high-ranking government official' having chartered a pleasure boat 'auspiciously' on government business, but in reality having a romantic tryst with their in-law's neighbour's sister's dog-walker's (underage) spouse's stepchild. I may have skipped a level of involvement somewhere in there ...

Oh yeah ... ICYHN I am being sarcastic ....

[Northern Exploration]

Government red tape and nonsense calls for as much sarcasm as one can muster. Why go to the zoo to see the monkeys feeding time when you can go to a provincial legislature or even better parliament and see even worse behaviour. haha!

And before you think the romantic tryst causing an accident is wild read my other posting this morning from the Toronto Star and the possible romantic angle to the QofTN sinking.

[kylefossett]

pnwtraveler said:

And before you think the romantic tryst causing an accident is wild read my other posting this morning from the Toronto Star and the possible romantic angle to the QofTN sinking.

actually heard that rumour from a connection of mine in the union

[Dane]

pnwtraveler said:

Classified? Maybe there was an unnamed submarine in the pass and it is all hush hush. ;D

LOL the report is available though, in paper, if anyone remembers what that is LOL! It was a refresher for me, although I read it before I ventured onto this forum for the first time a few years back.

[northwesterner]

dane said:

]

LOL the report is available though, in paper, if anyone remembers what that is LOL!

Those who are really serious about finding information still use libraries. There is so much information that is not available online, especially information on transport.

Even if your local library doesn't have the document you are looking for - take a look at the University Library's online catalogues. When you find the relevent book, go down to your local library and fill out an "interlibrary loan" request form. Wait a couple weeks, and it should show up.

[staffer]

wetcoastkidjst said:

Small correction - I do not believe that the Queen of Surrey II ever operated on Route 1. It was, in fact, the Queen of Oak Bay. It operated on Route 1 for only a few years immediately after it entered service. Then, when all the V's had been lifted, it was moved out to Routes 2 or 3.

The Queen of Surrey did operate on route one. I remember sailing on it back in August of 1992. For the summer schedule, the C-class vessels were the fifth ship on the route and the #3 vessel out of Swartz Bay. It sailed on the half-hour for two or three round trips everyday.

[queenofcowichan]

I Also would like to confirm that the Queen of Surrey Did opperated route 1. The Dolphin Magazine showed pictures of the Surrey at Swartz Bay in service to Tsawwassen.

The Coquitlam also did route 1 at times.