Utah ferry comes overland

[Low Light Mike]

Over to you, YVR.

Did I detect some bias in your post?

This did make for some interesting discussion today.....

[yvr]

Ah - Mr. Flugel Horn

Simple observations my friend, bias absolutely not, but making sure that what happens at BCF does not go unnoticed by the members of this board. Especially by pros like "Cascade".

[Dane]

I did notice that there is a weld point thats a good few centimeters off making the deck straight-aligned and thus creating a slight "z" effect, however on a ship of these size I'm sure it's unavoidable.

[Scott]

On a slightly different tangent, welcome to the wet coast, MV Kuper! "She" probably got as much rain dumped on her in the 3 days since her launch than she did in an average year in Utah:)

[Retrovision]

dane said:

I did notice that there is a weld point thats a good few centimeters off making the deck straight-aligned and thus creating a slight "z" effect, however on a ship of these size I'm sure it's unavoidable.

For myself, especially considering that even the former City of Vancouver of '62, and still sailing today, has survived with such weld-points, let alone how many points there are and how massive the 'V' Class vessels are, I am no more worried about ripping weld-lines than I might be worried by a northern vessel sinking in the first-world.

[Low Light Mike]

If the welding is even 1/2 as strong as the cellophane-wrapper on the BreadGarden wraps in the cafeteria, then it should be ok.

[Barnacle]

Cascade, while you raise valid points regarding electrolysis, I do believe you might be overplaying it a tad... your posts have a certain urgency which suggests that the boat will dissolve like a sugar lump when it hits the water.

[Neil]

We've been riding ferries here that have been stretched, lifted, and converted to catamarans, with a mix of new steel and old steel, for decades. You'll have to try something else, if you want to get us worried.

The Vesuvius Queen worked Okanagan Lake before moving to Georgia Strait, and the Saltspring Queen operated on a less salty Fraser River crossing. They worked for many years after the switch with no resulting problem.

Rather than challenging people to solve riddles, it would be more helpful to just state the specific concerns you have about salt/fresh water.

[Dane]

cascade said:

Well Dane,

Still waiting for your challenge on electrolysis - new steel - old steel - fresh water and a touch of salt water. So what do you think happens?

Here's some prime examples of Fresh water, to salt water with new steel.

www.geocities.com/ferries_bc/profiles/retired/bcf_vesuviusqn.html

www.geocities.com/ferries_bc/profiles/retired/bcf_saltspringqn.html (not sure is she had new steel, though)

[Ferryman]

I think the V's have done pretty well over the years, after the two major conversions they've had. On the Queen of Vancouver, I managed to find some sort of indication that she's showing her age, judging by the steel. The area around the name, is the original 1962 steel plating, then you can somewhat see the weld line that goes along just above the name, from the lift, obviously. Then you can also see the slight ripple in the steel plating just below the passenger deck.

[Scott]

The Saltspring Queen might not be the best example, since she was never sliced up, but the Vesuvius Queen probably is, since she had to be trucked to the coast.

Cascade, I respect your knowledge and opinions, but don't you think BC Ferries knows what a Naval Designer is? I'm sure they've looked into all possible problems, consulted dozens of experts, and done everything to make sure the Kuper is a good and useful ferry for 25 years.

[Ferryman]

Believe it or not, the Vesuvius Queen, or now known as the "Elupina" even got a slight addition to her passenger decks, even like 40 years after she was cut up and brought to the Coast.

[Dane]

And she's still afloat! How is that possible! {!}

John, both were cut open I have some photos in Qualicum Beach; just after they were delievered to BC Ferries. The "a" and "b" ends of both ships were modified (to be the same). I did confuse which ship was diced and sliced, though. Thanks for the correction.

[Barnacle]

Cascade-- WSF sliced-and-diced all four Steel-Electrics in 1958, and the Evergreen State 30 years later. (The Steel-Electrics suffered an 11'4" vehicle clearance and the Evergreen's was 12'6".) Fortunately they have quit that process; the SE's survived it because the hulls were also sponsoned out. The Evergreen's lifting was... shall we say, less than successful. She is now rather top-heavy and the USCG won't let us ballast her out any further because of concerns with freeboard.

As for little secondary value of ex-BCF vessels, I can make an industry-insider's guess: like WSF, they never throw anything away until it's well past useless. ;D

[Neil]

BC and Washington State Ferries have always gotten extraordinarily good mileage out of their vessels, as barnacle points out. As ships age and route requirements change, they're shifted around because they're versatile, and can often be modified to suit needs.

It's a mark of original good design that these boats get used here for so long and not sold- not an indication of their lack of value. Who cares that no European buyer might want the 'sliced and diced' Queen of Esquimalt, when we're still getting good use out of her, forty years after launch?

To take the point a step further, I don't believe that BC Ferries ever once tried to sell a vessel that was still, relatively speaking, in it's prime. Queen of The Islands was twenty years old, the 'Victoria, even older. So how can you assert that our ferries have never had resale value? The test would have been if they had tried to sell, say, one of the Spirits at six or seven years of age, or one of the V's in the late sixties, since most operators try to unload ships that are still fairly young and marketable. That never happened. The Sonia is only two years old- it proves little to point out that our elderly fleet is not hot market material.

[Barnacle]

Elderly fleet, my left elbow. We have four pushing eighty, one pushing sixty, one in its early fifties, and two more about to cross that line. When you look at it that way, over one-third of WSF's fleet is older than BC Ferries (the organization). ;D

[Neil]

So a WSF fan and a BC Ferries fan are in a bar, and the BC Ferries fan says, "We've got some great old ferries, they've been running forever!", and the WSF fan says, "Hah! You think you've got old ferries? Ours are so old, they've been switched from diesel to embalming fluid!".

[Low Light Mike]

hornbyguy said:

So a WSF fan and a BC Ferries fan are in a bar, and the BC Ferries fan says, "We've got some great old ferries, they've been running forever!", and the WSF fan says, "Hah! You think you've got old ferries? Ours are so old, they've been switched from diesel to embalming fluid!".

......then in walks an Englishman, who says: _________

[Scott]

I don't even think there would be much demand for our ships in most parts of the world anyways. Our sheltered waters combined with a large coastal population and demand for vehicle transport is pretty unique. Washington State is the only place I can think of with similar designed ferries. Our ferries wouldn't work in the English Channel, the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, the South Pacific. Sure there are large fleets in sheltered waters, but the ones I know about are in places like New York, San Francisco, and Hong Kong and they're mainly short trips and passenger-based. Where else in the world would a Spirit or V-class vessel work? It has been pointed out several times before on this forum that BC is one of the only places in the world that utilises two separate car-decks, making them basically useless anywhere else. I think most BC Ferries are built specifically for our coast, and built to serve their entire useful life on our coast, and I don't have a problem with that as long as we can keep refreshing the fleet - something that has been lacking over the last 10 years.

[Dane]

cascade said:

The government report into BC Ferries - one point they high lighted was the lack of second hand market value for BC Ferries fleet - this is not something that I have made up. Secondly in a BCFS management report - concerning asbestos - they (BCFS) give the impression that they will be actively looking to sell vessels in the open market - thereby passing on the problem of asbestos to the new owner.

A government report also once wanted railways to lock the steering wheels on railway locomotives, after Sept 11. Little did they know it was for a brake; sad.

BC Ferries sells vessels to Africa and the Med after they have lost all decernable value in the majority of the developed world. Nice try, though.

[Neil]

cascade said:

I have always champion BC Ferries and strongly believed in there total professionalism .

Right. We've noticed. Aside from the usual allegations that our ferry system is corrupt, mismanaged, lacking foresight, lacking marine expertise, unfairly competitive, and that they don't build well or maintain well, not to mention that they cheated old pioneering shipping families out of their legacies (and I've probably missed some other sins).... you've been unfailingly unbiased.

Re-sale value is irrelevant when the practise is to use vessels until pretty much the end of their useful lives.

I've quoted a BC Ferries spokesman as to the amount spent on asbestos removal, and the 'trace amounts' that are left on the ferries. If you maintain that they're not telling the truth, perhaps you could favour us with the actual source that contradicts that.

[Dane]

cascade said:

Dane,

So we got rid of the Queen of Victoria - before she could put in her 40 years service.

I therefore gather that you think BC Ferries got good value for her?

Exceptional value.

[Scott]

True, some of our ferries have been sold to the Caribbean region, but in both cases I know about, it was a stupid move on the buyer's part.

[Neil]

We know that the 'Victoria ended up being owned by a company in the Dominican Republic, and the Princess of Vancouver went to China- do we have any information on exactly how they were used?

[WettCoast]

A DOT photo of the QoVan from just after lifting in 1981.

i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/wetcoastkidjst/Seven%20Sisters/QofVancouveratTsawwassenTerminalc19.jpg

The Vancouver looked in excellent condition then even though she had already seen 19 years of service. She is still serving a useful role today after 44 years of service.

It can be said the BC Ferries, along with our neighbouring ferry operators in Washington and Alaska, aim to get their 'money's worth' out of their investment by operating them to virtually the end of their useful service lives. Once they are sold it should come as no surprise that they do not fetch much of a resale value. No different then me buying a new car, and then selling it 15 years later after having driven it 250,000 km. I would not expect to get a lot of $$$'s for it.