Utah ferry comes overland

[Scott]

dane said:

And she's still afloat! How is that possible! {!}

John, both were cut open I have some photos in Qualicum Beach; just after they were delievered to BC Ferries. The "a" and "b" ends of both ships were modified (to be the same). I did confuse which ship was diced and sliced, though. Thanks for the correction.

Thanks for pointing that out. I did not know that.

And regarding the Victoria and Vesuvius, both were sold to the Caribbean. The Victoria was used for a few runs to different countries. She wasn't suited to the waters, that's what the owners poured money into putting a regular bow on her. She was full of problems and was never used regularly for anything according to the information I recieved a couple years ago. And the Vesuvius Queen was even worse. She was placed on a route but only operated for a short time. Just the wrong ferry for the route. Smaller and faster passenger ferries stayed in business and now she's just tied up to the dock rusting away, as far as we know.

[yvr]

Perhaps one of our members can kindly post a picture of the Kuper in Dry Dock. "Supposedly" Allied was going to paint the hull after the launch.

That barge like hull should show BCF that dated hull designs gobble fuel! Do we have a date for sea trials, and hand over?

[Dane]

yvr said:

Perhaps one of our members can kindly post a picture of the Kuper in Dry Dock. "Supposedly" Allied was going to paint the hull after the launch.

"Supposedly" they did it within hours of launching her (started that night).

[pro isle]

With respect to the hull form of the Kuper, she is virtually the same style/form as the other K class and Q class bigger sisters. She has a curved bottom, not unlike laying a flounder on it's side, hence the original name 'the flying flounders', the K class were dubbed with. Everything else is squared off to keep the construction costs down. A classic example of the hard chine hull form, built to keep costs down, was the Osprey 2000, which pays a big penalty for it in comparison to say, the hull form of the Skeena. Much more efficient hull.

You are right when you say they gobble fuel, but only if you push them much beyond their 9-10k operating range, such as what BCFS seem to want to do with the Quinsam. Once you get to a certain point, you can put as much power in as you want. You will pay a huge penalty for fuel burned with very little extra speed.

What amazes me about the Kuper is the fact that they stuck with 2 engines and took the gearboxes out in favour of PTO's instead. The only two boats that I'm aware of that still have the ability to use ahead/astern mode with their reversing gears are the Klatawa and Kulleet. It's a real butt saver if you lose steering on one leg!

[yvr]

Pro Isle - Thank you for the hull design information. Page 3 of the North Van ferries thread shows just how angular the hull is, hence my reasoning for high fuel consumption.

By the way Pro Isle, please feel free to join the board. I would advise that you not post information that could point back to you. However you surely have other interesting information you would like to share. So grab yourself a handle and welcome aboard.

[hergfest]

One other thing to remember was that the original JAB hull was in very good shape due to the fresh water.

[Dane]

She was put in the water this ... afternoon, sorry aftermore thought I realized it must have infact been morning.

[yvr]

After reading "Cascade's" reply (#63 just above) I feel the person who could best respond to this is - "Hornbyguy"

Awaiting your input HG!

[Dane]

cascade said:

So we have now got a vessel - that has gone through 3 dice & slice maneuvers, was already over 20 years old -

First you were upset there was too muchy new steel, now there's not enough? Besides you believe very strongly in BC Ferries' involvement in the second hand vessel market, shouldn't you be extatic even if on principle alone?

cascade said:

and it appears to drink it's weight in fuel - so I guess she will be a little expensive to run.

Based on what. Perhaps you should try reading the thread you're reffering too.

cascade said:

A new bridge - engines (are they the same?) new steel, new piping, new electric & bridge equipment, new survival equipment, new car deck.
So what did they buy ? A hull cut into two - $200,000 when it appears that $100,000 would have sealed the deal. I guess value would be about the price for the scrap steel - given it's age - over 20 years.

That's exactly what they bought.

cascade said:

Then we add in $11M - plus of course the Federal government 4% credit back another $440,000 to the pot.
Sorry I forgot - as she came in kit form - no Provincial tax to pay - (If only Harbourlynx could have cut herself up she would have saved this tax - one law for them - another for private enterprise - shame really)

Your figures are wrong. Since you like the game of making young users discover things, I'll allow you to find the correct figures. I believe you once offered a McDonalds meal as a reward, I'll match that, and supersize it.

cascade said:

Anyway - given around $13M or so - don't you think given this price and what we are paying for the 100m intermediate vessel at $43M

Again your figure if off, very substantially.

cascade said:

Oh well - BC Ferries have all the experts - and money - we known nothing.

That's right. We have ships that run for a long time instead of turning into decrepic waste at the 20 year mark.

cascade said:

Just don't start me on another rant about hull weakness - salt water - fresh water....the list goes on & on....

.... which you failed to substantiate.

[Political Incorrectness]

Dane "and cascade", with figures for cost estimates, where are the sources here? I don't know who is right or wrong here which does not help anyone making it seem like an argument of facts.

[Dane]

BCFS Annual Report

or

Kuper Press Release

or

BC Ferries Financial Statements 2006

With the detailed financial numbers it's gets a little tricky as this project has spanned two fiscal years.

[Neil]

BC ferries doesn't 'push' their small vessels. The K class boats operate at a leisurely ten knots- and I've seen the larger Quinitsa do even less on occasion, since it does a ten minute crossing every half hour.

Disappointed you're not going to go on a 'rant' about salt water/fresh water problems. A little Cascadian insight there would have been helpful, as I'm sure we're all scratching our heads on that one.

Have to agree with you, in general, on the Kuper purchase. Very expensive for what they got. 10-15 million for a no frills 32 car ferry. By BC Ferries own traffic figures, Thetis & Kuper were near the bottom of the priority list for a bigger vessel. As well, the Klatawa and Kulleet will be available again in a couple of years with the completion of the new Fraser bridge, and they should be in decent shape considering their years in 'fresh' water, although they are, admittedly, over thirty years old.
Questionable deal. As you say, maybe they could have built something new for almost the same price, and created a lot more employment.

Random thought- If they were going to identify the boat with a place (which they originally said they weren't going to do), why not "Kuper Queen"?, as per tradition? Why just "Kuper"?

[landlocked]

Just love the 'friendly' banter between Hornbyguy and Cascade. Thank goodness it is only that!

I have also heard that the Utah government only wanted 100K for the Burr. BCFS paid 200K.

I am sure the steel used to build the ship was not as good as what it is today, but with a well coated bilge, the Burr should be fine.

Yes, I understand the reason for increasing her tonnage was partly to escape PST, and yes there are different rules for different folks it seems. Different rules for the Harbourlynx that the Burr. Interesting. Guess it's who ya know.

It is really too bad they didn't put 4 engines into her rather than the way she is. There's no redundancy.

As far as the K class burning fuel, they are actually pretty good. The corp has always wanted to increase the capacity of the Quinsam though, which has the same hull form, hence the oversized engines installed a few years ago. I had understood that they were eventually going to install bigger RAD's, possibly when they went through with a slice and dice proposal they were working on. Challenge is, she won't go much faster with
bigger engines/drives. She's pretty much at her hull speed now. If they tried, they'd just burn more fuel no minor increase in speed.

[NMcKay]

i do beleave that all K class retained thier Reverse Gearbox, as the kuleet, and Klitsa are virtually identical, and bot have the same drive mechanisms,

[Dane]

She got her blue stripe sometime between Monday and today, same as every vessel but the Quinsam. Too bad, as I prefer how she looks (with the stripe lower going the entire length of the vessel.) No name painted on as of yet, except where it was done for the individuals watching the launch.

[Dane]

And today she got her "BC Ferries"

Maybe the name tomorrow? How exciting!

[Curtis]

Where is the Kuper right now?

[Dane]

Same place she's been since arrival. I thought they moved her a few weeks ago but really they covered her with tarps and confused me.

Looks like they're doing the deck lines today.

[Balfour]

She seems to have electrical in now. I noticed her interior lights were on when I crossing the 2nd Narrows Bridge earlier tonight.

[Retrovision]

qsandwich said:

She seems to have electrical in now. I noticed her interior lights were on when I crossing the 2nd Narrows Bridge earlier tonight.

Although a bit of a pipe dream, it would be interesting to see her pressed into service between Horseshoe Bay and Porteau Cove (halfway to Squamish on the Sea to Sky hwy) if, as Chris, a resident of Squamish, recently mentioned as a possibility, the highway gets washed-out in one of the upcoming storms of the season.

[Ferryman]

She was lifted out of the water almost immediately after being launched. She was placed on to a floating drydock, so painting of the hull, and superstructure could be finnished up. The RAD's could have probably been fitted while she was still floating, because they have access covers on the cardeck, directly above the RAD's. When I was going over the Second Narrows on Saturday night, all I could see was several different coloured tarps draped over her car deck, and the only parts which was exposed, was the mast on the bridge, and the passenger deck windows.

[Dane]

Saefty boat is on, looks like a lot of the safety equipment is on, deck painted and sealed, lights on all over, and looks like the interior may be in (Disclaimer: Looking from the bridge at 80km/h I will not back that statement up... I just saw some dots that resemebled seating)

Other than the fact she's still missing her name except on one end on one side she looks, the the uneducated observer, ready to go.

[Ferryman]

Judging by these pics, it looks like she's been towed out to sea?

www.pbase.com/kstapleton/inbox

[Dane]

Rte in Jan

[Neil]

FYI: this excerpt from a report to the BC Ferry Commission, explaining the purchase of the John Atlantic Burr:

11. M.V. “John Atlantic Burr”
Acquiring an additional smaller vessel to operate on the minor routes was
necessary to expand the number of minor vessels in the fleet thus increasing
the flexibility of deployment options surrounding refit relief periods. The M.V.
“Pender Queen”, M.V. “Vesuvius Queen”, and M.V. “Saltspring Queen” were
minor vessels retired in the 1990’s without replacement. The M.V. “John
Atlantic Burr” (JAB), was offered for sale by the State of Utah – Department
of Transportation. The ship is a K class vessel of similar design to BC Ferries’
vessel M.V. “Klitsa”. The JAB was constructed in 1985 and lengthened in
1996. A survey identified that the JAB was in excellent condition as it served
its entire 20 years on a fresh water lake in a very hot and dry climate,
resulting in excellent preservation of the vessel’s structure and its associated
machinery and electrical equipment.

Interesting. I don't think any of us thought of those long departed boats when we were considering the addition of the new Kuper to the fleet.