Update on Replacement Vessel

[Dane]

harbourlynxkid said:

shes the ship we SHOULD have bought

... Seriously.... Do you have anything to substantiate that statement, at all?

[Political Incorrectness]

It is possible, I believe that you could modify the Sonia to have one stern loading ramp instead of two without modifying the berths.

[Koastal Karl]

Sonia is too wide though to fit the docks isent she??? So wouldent they have to modify the docks?

[Curtis]

They will have to. Unless they streched her rear so she could fit in the docks

[WettCoast]

The Sonia is 20 m [66 ft] wide at the stern. Modifications to the ship or docks, or both are absolutely essential. I have not taken any measurements but I would guess that existing docks on the North Coast would only accommodate about half that width.

[Curtis]

Think of the Dogwood Princess II (12.80 M) but only only twice the size.

[Political Incorrectness]

The Queen of the North was 19.74 meters wide so major modifications are unecessary.

[WettCoast]

Sorry, it is not the width at mid ship that is important, but the width at the stern. The North tapered to the stern, being about one half as wide at the stern as at mid ship. The Sonia is as wide at the stern as it is at mid ship.

[WettCoast]

Cascade,

If I am not mistaken, the Mediterranean has very small tidal range - in the order of a metre or so. The BC North Coast has a tidal range of 6 or 7 metres. I expect that plays a major role in the type of berthing designs that will work. Perhaps it is not that big a factor?

Any comments?

[Curtis]

Hmmm...That could be good

[Doug]

We're closer to the moon...?

[Neil]

Speak for yourself, Doug.

[Curtis]

Yes, When we're closer to the moon the tide is high when we're furthest from the moon the tide is low.
This is kinda going off topic but the tides are too but I wonder how close they are to finishing berth 2 at Swartz Bay

[Low Light Mike]

Here's a paragraph from the Aug.18th BCFS news release:

In addition to this new northern vessel, BC Ferries is continuing to negotiate an agreement to
acquire a vessel to replace the Queen of the North.

www.bcferries.com/news/files/06-049contracttobuildnewnorthernvessel.pdf

I've noticed how the spin-doctors have carefully worded this paragraph. It doesn't specifiy if this is a purchase, a lease, or some other arrangement. If it's a rental, it doesn't specify how long the rental is for, and for how long this vessel would be replacing the Q-North for (maybe just until 2009 when Flensburger's ship is delivered?)

So maybe this mystery acquisition (Sonia?) will just be a 2007-2008 short-term solution?

Of course, until the "official news release" re all this, this is just a guess. Even then, who knows what the real reasons & deliberations were.....

[Low Light Mike]

Another thing from the Aug.18th news release:
www.bcferries.com/news/files/06-049contracttobuildnewnorthernvessel.pdf

check our David's twin titles:

David L. Hahn, BC Ferries’ President and CEO

Mr. Cascade pointed this out a few days ago (sorry, I couldn't find that post, to put this follow-up to). Being both President & CEO is a "control weakness" for an organization, because a strong company/organization needs both a President (the board chair) and a CEO (the #1 employee) to be different persons, so that they can check&balance each other. An effective indepedent President is critical to preventing fraud, promoting efficiency, and in resulting in an effective organisation.

When these 2 incompatible roles are combined, the corporate-culture is weakened. (yeah this is from Auditing 101, but it's applicable here!).

So David, by taking on these 2 incompatible roles, has reduced the Board's ability to question management, and has weakened the structure of the company.

[oceaneer77]

Old News Below but a good insight as to how the new vessel is being built in europe...
And an insight in the shipyards of bc... It is a shame and a discrase that WMG (an american company) owns so much of BC's shipping and ship building..


Washington Marine Group sinking British Columbia shipbuilding industry by refusing to bid on new $350 million BC Ferries' North Coast replacement ferries says BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation; 5000 jobs, major investment lost to BC in foolish decision, says George MacPherson

BC Federation of Labour, BC Ferry and Marine Workers Union voice shock at decision

VANCOUVER – The Washington Marine Group is sinking the British Columbia shipbuilding industry by refusing to make a bid to construct two new BC Ferries' North Coast ferries worth about $350 million, the BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation said today.

Federation President George MacPherson says the foolish decision by the North Vancouver-based company will cost B.C. as many as 5000 direct and indirect jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars that will now all go to foreign shipyards.

“I am shocked and I am livid with the Washington Marine Group for refusing to even bid on constructing these important ships for BC Ferries,” MacPherson said. “The Washington Marine Group is literally sinking our BC shipbuilding industry with this unbelievable decision.”

MacPherson said he learned of the decision recently after the Washington Marine Group sent a letter to BC Ferries stating it would not make a bid to replace the 37-year-old Queen of the North, which sunk after running aground near Hartley Bay in March, and the aging Queen of Prince Rupert.

“Shipyard workers now have to question the very existence of a shipbuilding industry in this province after our largest company says ‘no thanks' to our largest customer,” MacPherson said.

The BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation led a huge fight in 2004 against building three new Super-C class ferries worth $542 million in a German shipyard without the Washington Marine Group being given the opportunity to make a final bid to build them in British Columbia.

In a letter to Washington Marine Group President Rollie Webb, MacPherson said the company's stated reason that it is “too busy” with other work to make a bid simply doesn't make sense and asked why shipyard unions and other smaller shipyard companies were not consulted.

“We are also shocked that devastating decisions that affect your entire organization as well as the entire industry are done with absolutely no consultation or involvement with your labour unions or with the rest of the industry,” MacPherson wrote. “We have also suggested in the past that if the Washington Marine Group is not capable of undertaking these projects on their own, then there are other players in the industry that would step up to the plate and assist you to make sure the work remains in BC.”

BC Federation of Labour President Jim Sinclair said today the Washington Marine Group decision is irresponsible.

“British Columbia has a proud history of shipbuilding, from constructing the RCMP's St. Roch that went through the Northwest Passage to liberty ships during World War II to the great BC Ferries Spirit class ships that serve us well today,” Sinclair said. “So for Washington Marine Group to not even bother to bid on such a major shipbuilding project that is so important to the province is extremely troubling for the future of the industry.”

BC Ferry and Marine Workers Union President Jackie Miller said today she is astonished that the Washington Marine Group would not bid after it received strong support from her members to build the Super-C ferries in BC.

“Ferry workers want to sail on ships built in British Columbia by BC workers and the Washington Marine Group is ensuring that more and more of our fleet is built in foreign shipyards – it makes no sense to us,” Miller said.

MacPherson said his member and the strong majority of British Columbian who polling showed supported building new ferries in BC can only be extremely disheartened by the Washington Marine Group's lack of confidence in and respect for the province.

“This was the time to show leadership, to show vision and to show the world what we can build here in British Columbia. The Washington Marine Group has failed that test miserably and the province and the industry will suffer as a result,” MacPherson said. “Unfortunately so will shipyard workers – who can build great ships but can't make decisions on behalf of the company.”

The BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation represents about 1,600 workers in the shipbuilding, repair and maintenance industry.

[Low Light Mike]

oceaneer77 said:

t is a shame and a discrase that WMG (an american company) owns so much of BC's shipping and ship building.

I wanted to challenge these opening premises, or at least to give them some thought, as they are strong words, and so I wanted to consider them:

- the first issue about it being a shame & disgrace, is subjective and we'll likely never reach a full consensus re this on this board.......and that's just the way it is, with all of our diverse thought. That's ok to disagree or agree on.

- the second issue that WMG is an American Company: I wanted to see for myself, so I've visited WMG's website....here's what I've found:

from www.washingtonmarinegroup.com/shipyards/index.htm
Shipyards Division

Convenient to Northwest shipping lanes, Washington Marine Group owns and operates three shipyards. All yards are currently certified to ISO 9001:2000 for quality, OHSAS 18001:1999 for safety, and are scheduled to be certified ISO 14001:2004 for environmental stewardship by December 2006.

Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd.
Vancouver Drydock Company
Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd.

--------------

from www.washcorp.com/profile/profile_frames.htm

Profile of the Washington Companies

The Washington Companies are a vibrant group of individual companies in which Montana businessman Dennis R. Washington holds controlling ownership position. Each company displays a unique entrepreneurial spirit that is individually cultured and managed by professional management teams that are guided by separate Boards of Directors. Each company has the ability and tools to perform and service their customer base at the highest level in their specific industry.

The Washington Companies have grown and diversified by focusing on core industries in six primary sectors: rail transportation, marine transportation, construction and mining, heavy equipment sales, aviation technology, and real estate development.

All of the companies are privately held. The Washington Companies are headquartered throughout the United States and western Canada and conduct business internationally.

Expertise in equipment, management, and manpower, together with a deep understanding of the associated economies and markets, has made the companies leaders in performance, production efficiency, and competitive service.

-----------------------------

My commentary:
- In terms of location of ownership control, Yes I agree that they are an American Company, as Mr. Washington is a resident of Montana.

- However, from looking from a different perspective, they are a local / regional company, as Coastal BC is located in the companies main area of operations. The controlling owner's roots are in the "Pacific Northwest", which is also where BC is located.

I'd argue that WMG is much more closely connected to the people of Coastal BC than a Canadian-owned Toronto-based company would be.

[Low Light Mike]

A further comment:

- the presumable arguement from the BC Unions is that BC Shipbuilders should be the ones who are working building our ferries.

Now we are faced with a situation where the local company did not want this newbuild contract.

Does this mean that BC Shipbuilders are out-of-work? Or are "our" BC Shipbuilders (the unionised workers) still busy working; working on other ships & projects?

My main point: Are the BC Unions upset today because their workers aren't working, or are they just upset because their workers won't be working on the new ferry? If the workers are busy anyways, what's the problem from the workers' point of view?

I have to wonder if there is no practical basis for today's Union compaint, and maybe it is just ideologically based??

Can someone more enlightented than me please comment?

[hergfest]

The Flensburger contract is for ONE vessel, why? Do they want WMG to do the second boat? Do they think the Sonia, or whatever they buy, will be around for a while?

[oceaneer]

Thanks for the reply HMCS Naniamo

As for my comments...
WMG owns almost all of the shipping concerns in vancouver harbour and coastal bc.
Seaspan, Cates, Van shipyards, Vic shipyards, Kingcome Navigation, Southren Rail Way of
BC..
With the level of involvement of his one company they hold a virtual monopoly over coastal bc shipping. ( a study of this was conducted years ago.. then just to keep from going over the tipping point a new company emerged Tiger Tugs.. they just kinda poped up from the mist, How very convenient)
having said all of this... The WMG companies are run well, some more investment in capital is required as thier fleet is aging (sound familiar)
But WNG is not controlled by Canadians, and this does change the outlook and operation of a company.

As to the shipyard not bidding on the contract.. this is very sad, but they are concerned with thier bottom line. what is the big tragedy is the fact that thier is no other company to step up to the plate and fill the gap.
In the past Versitile Pacific would have bidded as would Davie Ship Building.
Versitile Pacific is gone and Davie is ?? ( what are they doing?)

The Union situation shows problems as well with the union saying that 5000 jobs are needed to build this vessel and the union only having 1600 members!

I hope that these contracts make BC Shipbuilding Wake up.... Thier is a void in our capacity/ability that needs to be filled.. it is a shame that the dollars that could have revaltized our shipbuilding industry have gone overseas.

Thats all of my rant for now
Oceaneer

[Low Light Mike]

oceaneer said:

Thats all of my rant for now

I don't think that's a rant....that's some good info & opinion.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the history lesson re Versitile & Davie.

[WettCoast]

This is an interesting and curious announcement from BCFS. So here I go...

• They say that this is to replace the QPR so that it can be retired. When the new ship enters service in 2009 the QPR will be 43 years young - much of it taking a pounding in Hecate St. They then say that the ship will serve the Inside Passage Route - no mention re QCI service. The QPR principally serves the QCI route, and in recent years has been on the Inside Passage only as the off-season boat. So if they retire the QPR and the new boat goes on the IP, then what boat will do QCI? The Sonia?
  
  
• Is this new vessel actually a replacement for the QotN, and the Sonia [or what ever] is to be temporary? If yes then would you want to sink millions into conversion on the Sonia and/or berths in 4 or 5 locations?
  
  
• There is virtually no information about the new boat except that it will be 150 m in length, will have a capacity for 130 vehicles, and 650? passengers. Considerably longer than the QotN, but apparently with less capacity for people and about the same for cars. It sounds as if it will be narrower than the QotN. Do they intend that this vessel would be able to use the same berthing facilities as are there now, or that will be needed by the not so narrow Sonia?
  
  
• They need at least three ships. The Chilliwack also has to be replaced very soon. No word on that.
  
  
• If you read between the lines here, is BCF saying something about service on the mid-coast and QCI routes? Are they maybe planning to abandon those routes?
  

[Neil]

Sounds like just the opposite to me. They're replacing the 'Rupert with a considerably bigger ship, The 'Sonia' or whatever will be about the same size as the 'North, and there's no reason to think yet that the 'Chilliwack won't continue to serve the mid coast in summer until they get something new there. Maybe the 'Chilliwack's replacement will be the crumb they toss to local shipyards.

[Curtis]

I wouldn't think they would abandon the two other routes. Possibly the Discovery Coast Passage but that's it. I hope they give us the full plan when the purchase of the true QotN replacement is complete

[Neil]

Abandon the central coast and all the First Nations customers after what Hartley Bay did for the 'North's passengers? Hoo boy, wouldn't that look good....