Mid-Life Upgrades

[Mike C]

Happy Voting !

[Quinsam]

There has(I think) been a poll on this, but I'll vote Queen of Esquimalt, she is getting more battered by the week.

[Political Incorrectness]

Again, why upgrade old ferries just so then they can stick around for longer? You might as well spend the millions on replacing it.

[Quinsam]

Maybe, but that is even more expensive, then the V class are not too bad.

[Mike C]

I voted the Queen of Alberni because when I rode on it on route 30 it was all old and battered inside. The last time BCF renovated it all they did was add new exit signs (1999)

[Koastal Karl]

Alberni or New West. Update the Alberni and extend the passenger deck more to what the Cowichan and Coquitlam are like.

[Curtis]

I think the New West cause most of those polls are sort of obvious the Surrey is having one already Alberni is getting one next year the Cumbie doesn't need one the QPR Esquimalt and Vancouver are to be retired in the next few years and the Saanich already had one as well so the New West might be having one but she probably needs it the most out of all of them

[Shane]

I voted the New West.
I was going to vote the Prince Rupert but I dont know how battered she is.

[Quinsam]

prqueenkid16 said:

I think the New West cause most of those polls are sort of obvious the Surrey is having one already Alberni is getting one next year the Cumbie doesn't need one the QPR Esquimalt and Vancouver are to be retired in the next few years and the Saanich already had one as well so the New West might be having one but she probably needs it the most out of all of them

The new westminster has already had a refit.

[Ferryman]

That was a yearly annual refit. The refit they're talking about is a mid life upgrade refit where the interior gets renovated to like how the Nanaimo is now.

[Mike C]

I've been on the QPR and the style is almost identical to the New West. Except for the movie theater

[me 2]

i think queen of new westminster

[Doug]

I'm going with the New Westminster.

Queen of Surrey is already in a major refit. Queen of Alberni has a major refit scheduled for certainty next year. Queen of Prince Rupert is going to be replaced within the next few years, and has already received a major refit earlier. Queen of Esquimalt, Saanich and Vancouver are all scheduled for replacement very soon. The Queen of Cumberland needs one to her passenger deck, but not as much all around the ship.

[Scott (Former Account)]

mainlander101 said:

I've been on the QPR and the style is almost identical to the New West. Except for the movie theater

And I have been on the Spirit of Imagination, and the style is identical to every ship. Except for the Wal-Mart onboard.

[Mike C]

Ha ha ha. When I say Movie theatre, I mean a 52'' TV with a bunch of chairs behind it.

[Dane]

I agree with the previous sentiment, I think it was Karl who so accuratly said why spend the money on refit and not replace them? Although replacement adds about 300 million a vessel, increase the cost about 1000% it's still the only real option for most of these ships (notable the 3 Vs). Because of exponentially increasing traffic, however, one V IHMO opinion may 'slip through the common sense crack' and stay in service even longer.

he Queen of New West, because of very substantial investment in 1990/1991 does have a lot of life in her (she had very substantial work done to everything, including her basic hull structure) and could benefit from an upgrade but you have to wonder... looking at the route she's assigned too is it really worth the capital? She is the vessel I voted for, though.

[Starbucks Queen]

Actually, I think - not upgrade them at all but get newbuilds and get newbuilds with a bit more fancy and stylish interior.

Guys & Girls you absolutely need to get something like this here: It´s a French ferry, built for a route - well, a one-way crossing takes 90 minutes or a bit more... ´

www.faktaomfartyg.com/seafrance_rodin_2001_inr.htm

OK this is what I´d like to see if we let our phantasy run wild, and for sure this poll is created for this purpose, to use our phantasies.

Because - otherwise not me or any of you know of course which one will be next for refit, there is alot of stuff - especially all the technical and Solas stuff that only the crews and owners can see.

[Doug]

Cascade,

For one, BC Ferries is not in a competition and never will be to the extent of what is in Europe. For two, it is a two-hour crossing, max, between the Mainland and Vancouver Island.... And for three, people don't want fancy ferries to THAT extent. The Vancouver Island crossing, although maybe as long as the Dover Strait, is enclosed in Provincial waters, not international. British Columbia alone is bigger than the United Kingdom. Who's to complain that they are opening new user-pay facilities onboard international crossing ferries? Vancouver Island will never have the population to support itself like England can. The bottom line of this is, these ferries are absolutely essential for Vancouver Island.

Why sell a ferry after it's 20 years old? What's so bad about enlargening ferries? I've heard about cruise ships that have had that done...and the cruise industry is certainly "modern" from my view. Hell, the exteriors on ferries built here haven't even gone out of style, and the interior can be upgraded during a stretch or a mid-life upgrade.

And about the mid-life upgrades.... They are performing these upgrades on vessels 25-30 years old. These ships were built large back then while the metal was cheaper (they couldn't build a brand new ship for the same cost today, with inflation)...so these ships need upgrading to keep up with the older "V" Class ferries. As a matter of fact, the ships only costed about $20-$30 million in their day I believe.

[Starbucks Queen]

Let me quote this here:

"For one, BC Ferries is not in a competition and never will be to the extent of what is in Europe. For two, it is a two-hour crossing, max, between the Mainland and Vancouver Island.... And for three, people don't want fancy ferries to THAT extent"

For one... "ONLY two hours". The ship, to which´s nice and fancy interior pictures I have linked to, is on a route that takes 90 MINUTES ONE WAY !!!
Who says that only ferries which do have competition do need to offer a bit more than just transportation ?

For two... HOW can you state that the people do not want fancy ferries to THAT EXTENT ? I regard this as a pretty invalid piece of own assumption rather than a fact you try to provide - as I am sure YOU did not go around on the ferries and ask whether people would like them a bit fancier so - you may ask yourself why you have stated it after all.

For three.. I didn´t say that a ferry is old after 20 years - ferries ARE old after 20 years.
And, in general I do know very well that BC ferries do simply not have the money for buying themselfes new ones every 20 years and sell the others off to other markets - since you are pretty far from those I doubt WSF would buy your used-up ferries

And, since you were asking about which ferry should get mid-life refit next, and of course it isn´t our decision to be done since we don´t know the backgrounds - I mean how much this or that ferry needs an upgrade from a technical point of view, I did let my own phantasy play as well and said, no best none at all and better get something that the North American continent has not yet seen

[jamesa7171]

Queen of New Westminster, it is really quite battered.

[Alex]

chivapcici said:

For two... HOW can you state that the people do not want fancy ferries to THAT EXTENT ? I regard this as a pretty invalid piece of own assumption rather than a fact you try to provide - as I am sure YOU did not go around on the ferries and ask whether people would like them a bit fancier so - you may ask yourself why you have stated it after all.

The problem is that adding services, ammenities and fanciness to a company that is a monopoly is an excuse to jack up prices. A perfect example is the lounge they put on the Spirits. You want a quiet place to relax in comfortable seats? Extra $7. Sure, its not much, but what will they charge for next? Maybe there will be a furniture surcharge on all trips. Surcharges and fees are all the rage these days.

[Dane]

BC Ferries system is unique, but as are the the systems used all across the world really.... and it's only our major routes that are 'unique' as you know just as well as I do that BCF's other terminals can handle a majority of North American designed vessels. I really don't care about this Euro stuff, it seems like the ferry market there is exactly what BCFS should NOT follow.

Lecturing about old ships is one thing, but comparing to other local markets (local being North America) we're not far off kilter. In fact, despite BCFS's claims of horror we're not doing terribly poorly. I'm not defending not replacing vessels (just read my sig tag) but 20 years is also a joke of a replacement age not seen for most similar NA systems. Again, I don't care about Europe. In China most major buildings in Urban areas are replaced in 10 years, we don't do that, either....

Once you posted a link to some ships being built for New York and told the kidlettes on these boards that they were being ripped off with the Super Cs. What you negelcted to mentioned that the NY vessels were basically like really really really big SeaBuses, and didn't have any of the contractual/training/support etc that the C Class have.

Just because it's not Europe doesn't meen it is bad.

[Doug]

chivapcici said:

For two... HOW can you state that the people do not want fancy ferries to THAT EXTENT ? I regard this as a pretty invalid piece of own assumption rather than a fact you try to provide - as I am sure YOU did not go around on the ferries and ask whether people would like them a bit fancier so - you may ask yourself why you have stated it after all.

No, I am not asking myself why I stated that. And I did not ask everyone onboard if they like the interior. I know for a fact...just read the letters in some local newspapers and you'll see...but that's something you don't have access to so I guess YOU should be asking yourself why you said that.

[Doug]

cascade said:

So - I ask the question - why spend the $30M on a major life refit, when I know for $35M you can have a new vessel within 15 months - that is much more fuel efficient and nicer inside, has better safety features.
These mid-life upgrades are a total waste of money. I have had people ask me - why is BC Ferries spending that sort of money - when they could easily fund a new vessel, what is the problem? Well I just don't know the answer. I do mention that the second hand market value for BC Ferries is very low, due to there age, but even the bigger newer vessels - then again the way the Bow / Stern Doors and loading system work - make these vessels - if they ever want to sell / trade them - near impossible to do....soBCFS has boxed themselves into a corner - which sort of protects there routes, but does cost the general population a lot of money to keep a float.

Cascade: the vessels being refurbished are almost as big as the new Super "C" Class vessels. You couldn't build such a big ship for $35 million today, especially to the standard the Super "C"s are being built to.

And why can't a European operator buy a BC Ferry...? Is it that hard to enclose the upper car deck doors?

[Starbucks Queen]

It´s really not about whether European ferries are better or worse than ours, I did intend to write about something more complex than Europe Vs. North American stuff.

But you should look, how much these newbuilds here do cost, and then how much it does cost, to rebuild your ferries to have some old-fashioned and rather plain vessels interiorwise, too.

And, please show me these letters of peoeple who do NOT want to have nice, luxurious ferries. I bet with you, the people were talking about that they rather not have them if they get charged for it ! In Europe you don´t get charged for getting a bit more luxurious ferry.

Plus, don´t forget some ferry-companies order a bit more fancy ferries because that way they do not just attract the in-need-of transportation public but also attract weekend-trippers by offering interesting ships. But I guess that´s the difference between state owned businesses and independent business who must follow the rules of marketing and to explore new markets, too rather than going the same route - literally here - for 30 years with the same old tubs.

I agree, it´s a bit daft to compare a BC ferry with one of the NY Staten Island ferries. This is why I did compare rather with a 90 - minute European route, to give a valid example.