It never fails

[BrianWilliams]

I can't help joining this digression.

French-Canadians are not French; they are Canadians.

Our country's name comes from Jacques Cartier's misunderstanding of the native people he met near today's Québec City 400 years ago. "Ka-ne-taa" they allegedly said (meaning "our town") and Cartier faithfully reported to King Louis "They call this country Ca-na-da."

Our national anthem was written by Calixa Lavallée and Basile Routhier in 1880, as a patriotic song for the St-Jean-Baptiste society to celebrate Canada.

In the original, the Routhier words seem antique now
(O Canada, Terre de nos aieux / Ton front est ceint des fleurons glorieux..)

O Canada, Land of our ancestors / Your brow is crowned with wreaths of glory...

But it's better than the later "Maple Leaf Forever":

"In days of yore / The hero Wolfe / England's glory did maintain / And planted proud Britannia's flag / On Canada's fair domain"

We are all grown up now. We are not British, and have never been French from the old country. But the French culture, as it matured in Canada is our greatest asset.

Canadians are respected around the world. Often it is because we have no colonial baggage; it helps that many of our best-educated people are at ease in two widely-spoken languages.

[BrianWilliams]

Doug:

Though I agree with your point, "impossible" can become a fast-tracked, idiot project like the Chesapeake Bay bridge-tunnel.

[cascade]

It appears that this subject is turning into a heavy weight intellectual debate - which is very interesting.

Fenklebaum - I wonder why Trudeau married James Sinclair daughter Margret from the West Coast - as his power base was back East. The "word" on the street was he wanted to unite Canada as a whole. I am sure you remember all the talk in the 80's about the Western Provinces wanting to split - as a lot of the Federal tax money went to that French speaking area of Canada to built a power plant to supply our poor Southern Cousins.


Small side note - for Ferry historians - James Sinclair was one of the six founders/shareholders of "Cascade Steam Ship & Trading" which started the Brentwood - Mill Bay ferry system.
For you local Vancouver people - can you name the twin Towers that James Sinclair built in Vancouver ? There name starts with B........
Small world isn't it.

[Fenklebaum]

Heavyweight intellectual debates are my favourite kind, Cascade *grins and lights a cigar*

DougUbell, I tender my apologies to you. I shouldn't have labelled you redneck. I simply cannot abide an intolerant attitude. I hope you can accept my apology. But I would counter, sir, that it was not me who brought up this topic in the first place. I only expressed my distaste for some of the ideas being put forward by other members of this forum. And yes, I know, I'm not a member... Oh well.

Governments usually are more attentive to those provinces that elect them in the first place. Unfortunately, seeing as how the number of Liberals elected from the west can be counted on one's hands, the west doesn't get a lot of representation. Nor does Quebec, if you'll notice. This last parliament elected very few Liberals in Quebec. What did that get them, eh? Not a heckuva lot.

As for keeping together: The idea that the west would be self sustaining is lunatic. LUNA-TIC. The idea that Quebec would be self sustaining without the rest of Canada is also far fetched. The simple fact of it is, we need each other. Unless of course, you want to be swallowed up by that oh so aggressive juggernaut to the South.

I'm not saying this is right, I'm just suggesting that this is the most likely reason for the so called 'western alienation' which you're throwing about like a dead cat on a string.

His marriage to Margaret could've been politically motivated, however I'd prefer to believe that he married for love, not politics. What can I say, the man's a bit of a hero to me... Besides, if he were trying to unite the Western provinces with the rest of Canada, he would've done better not to divorce her so quickly.

Trudeau was a playboy, no question about it. He just chose someone who wasn't right for him.

[Balfour]

For those of you who don't know, Pierre Trudeau escorted Margaret Sinclair on their first date to Grouse Mountain for dinner, up the old Blue Skyride.

[cascade]

Fenklebaum,

You maybe correct and that Trudeau married for Love - but he was a breath of fresh air to Canada and well need at that point in our history.

Margaret was a bit of a free sprite at SFU - during her time. The Rolling Stones also like her....

The poor dead cat - will not take his name in vain, here we used that term in the Stock Exchange - meaning that after the drop - it does bounce back.

[Fenklebaum]

In my opinion, we need him again. Reason over passion.

You're a good man, Cascade. Btw, do you have any photos of the Brentwood? I havn't been able to find any. If you do, would you mind emailing them to me? [e-mail]

[Doug]

Yes, I accept your apologies. As for the Liberals getting Quebec votes, I was wrong. Most of the Quebecers vote for Bloc Quebecios...which could make up their own federal government.

And now I will add something for your pleasure. "They won't make a profit if they keep West and East together." Just kidding of course.

[kylefossett]

qsandwich said:

For those of you who don't know, Pierre Trudeau escorted Margaret Sinclair on their first date to Grouse Mountain for dinner, up the old Blue Skyride.

margaret sinclair has family with a cabin next to mine. met her son kyle sinclair a couple of years ago when he was out at his aunt and uncles for the summer

[cascade]

Fenklebaum,

We do seem to need someone with vision and leadership right now on the world stage and Mr.T had that - sadly missed.

I have pictures from day one - when she started out as a "Tramp Steamer" on the coast - before becoming a little bit more respectable. If you knew anything about the two founders - then you will understand even more about how it all came about. Of the additional 4 shareholders - which a certain Mr. J. Sinclair was one of them - lets just say that the work this vessel did for a few years was similar to that of a certain Mr. Sam Bronfman back East. It allowed the two founders to buy out the other 4 shareholders and embark on a rebuilding program to convert her over to a ferry.

The pictures - which are many - are mostly B&W - but our scanner is not working - so difficult to email to you - I have send in the post - "pony express" to Harbourlynx Teen some bit's & piece which he still hasn't received.
So I guess I'll just have to fund the purchase of a scanner.

In return for said pictures - could you turn your charm to the subject of the fuel surcharge - which this board doesn't seem to see is a pure con by the current management. Are younger members don't understand what a hedge is also - maybe something to grow funny tobacco on I guess.....from there lack of interest.

Yours - Cascade...

[Fenklebaum]

Well, the apathy of my generation is disgusting, to say the least. Many a day goes by where I contemplate either taking my own life so I won't have to deal with idiots, or taking the idiot's lives for the very same reason. But then common sense comes lolloping along, and convinces me otherwise.

Now, the fuel surcharge you say? Well, let me think... this all really began when BCF was privatized in the first place. So, if I were to place blame, then... GORDO. Kind of like Godot. Yep. Except people lost hope ages ago that he would ever help them, unlike Godot, where Vladimir and Estragon still are given hope that he will come to them. I digress...

Fuel Charge, eh? See, this is the kind of thing that happens when a public service is privatized! I distinctly recall part of the whole Coastal Ferries Act (I believe that's what it's called) being that it limited fare increases for the first little while... I could be mistaken, but seeing as how this is a "fuel surcharge", that means that BCFS management is still able to tack on a fare increase! It's like calling soldiers being sent off to Vietnam "military advisors" instead of "soldiers".

I'm sorry. This whole business, just... I'm still incredulous about the corporation being privatized. F***ing stupid. Just f***ing stupid.

[cascade]

Fenklebaum,

The fares are held for the first five years from 2003 until 2008 - then I guess all hell breaks out.

I think that BC Ferries management should go to Southwest Airlines - find the person who handles there fuel hedge - strategy program and hire them on - pay them a $1M plus massive bonus in cash to work there magic on the people here. Hell it would be well worth the salary - I would vote for it....
In todays FT newspaper - pg 29 - lead article - Southwest - has in place a hedge for the reminding 2005 at $26 per barrel - where as current price is around $60. They saved during Q2 $196M - hell that would pay for one new vessel for the fleet.

What I can't follow or even understand is way no newspaper or media outlet - has picked up on the Airline fuel hedge program - as it makes the papers here - therefore BCFS know how much fuel they need - why did they drop the hedge program - which cost there customers an increase in fares?
Are they trying to tell us that in 2008 - the fares are going up no matter what - and here is a taster to them. This will kill off any tourist trade for the Island, and will hit small business.

They have an aging old fleet that cost a lot to run and even more to keep fueled up - and on top of that they stop a hedge program that could save them money and win friends / customers - so they shot themselves in the foot.....in cases like this I wish they would bleed to death - lets get a new body in with a better head....

[Political Incorrectness]

right you are cascade makes plenty of sense

[BrianWilliams]

National unity, late Prime Ministers, sex and international currency/oil trading. Wow. We are a sophisticated gang of boat fans.

So it should be, I think.

[Curtis]

Nice photo

[Political Incorrectness]

cool photo

[cascade]

So then Brian - what are your views on this con been applied by the management and called a fuel surcharge ?

Would BC be better off - if it kept most of the federal tax it raised - instead of been spend back East - in that French speaking area?

Oh yes - the picture is great.....

[BrianWilliams]

I think it would be more honest to post a general fare increase -if it's necessary- than to add surcharges and port fees.

BCF should pay the Nanaimo port charges in bulk and add it to the cost of operations; as they must with fuel costs. Then the retail price of passage should increase to cover costs, plus provide a margin for future investment.

I realize that many minor routes run at a net loss, and I guess that will continue. But the system-wide fare revenues should cover system-wide costs plus re-investment.

The promise implicit in a surcharge is that if fuel prices drop, the surcharge will disappear. I'd still prefer a general fare adjustment.

As for National revenue sharing; well, that's a bigger and more tangled issue. For sure, don't bribe Québec with phony programs (or the Atlantic provinces, or northern BC, as happened in the 1980's with some pointless DREE schemes).

A longer view of Canadian history reminds us that most of western Canada was on the national dole for the first 40 years of the 20th century.

Earlier, BC herself received the biggest bribe in Canada's history with the cost-is-no-object construction of the CPR. The Pacific Scandal of 1873 brought down the John A. MacDonald government; 12 long years later, the CPR was actually completed by a private company; but with all the costs paid by the taxpayers of then-industrial Canada: Ontario, Québec and the Maritimes.

As it turned out, the CPR was a worthy investment. But it sure looked like a boondoggle at the time.

This was repeated 1906-1914, with the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific and Canadian Northern RRs across the west. Federal loan guarantees were covered by eastern Canadian taxpayers. The whole scheme went bust in the WWI period, and GTP and CNor became Canadian National Railways in 1922.

So we BCers have had a few bites of the apple, too.

I was born in Vancouver, my mother was born in Vancouver; I don't have a central-Canadian axe to grind.

(PS: thanks for the photo compliment, all of you. It's hard to take a poor photo of a big, white BC Ferry on a perfect BC summer day - or any day).

[cascade]

The main problem I have with the fuel surcharge - is that I don't think they will take it off - once the price drops. They don't have in place a hedge program - so they are purchasing on the spot market. The world view is that the price will stay around $45 - 55 per barrel for the next 12 to 18 months.

So if and when the price drops - will they drop there surcharge also ? As the statement from the Commissioner didn't clearly spell this out.

In BC Stat's they worked out - since 1980 to 2000 the ferry fares has increase by 700% - which has caused a general slow down in tourist coming to the Island. This will have a major knock on affect to anyone doing business on the Island - everything that comes on to the island will cost more and everything leaving - exported from the island will cost more - hence in a very tight market - the Islanders will be the losers.

If the senior management kept in place the hedge program at $35 per barrel - we would not have the fuel surcharge - business would still be able to export or import to and from the Island.

I think this will have major business losses in the next 6 to 12 months.

[BrianWilliams]

"I don't think they will take it off - once the price drops."

Either do I, so be honest and post an increase that will be the 2005 benchmark for fares.

BCF's fare per passenger mile, including private car, is much less than the Channel and Irish Sea ferries. Arguably, if two folks in a big saloon car could travel from Dover to Calais for €30, there would be no competitive modes.

BC Ferries may now be sorta private (remember the 1970's UK term QANGO: Quasi-Non-Governmental Organisation? If not, ask your older colleagues, or refer to dusty leaders in The Economist), but it's still a public utility.

BCF is not a monopoly. The price of entry to the business of transporting passengers, private cars and freight to/from Vancouver Island IS stupendous, of course.

BCF places a strict ceiling on competitors' revenue with their low fares. Entrepreneurs like Harbour Lynx, Harbour Air, HeliJet and others have to offer speed and convenience to make them attractive.

These guys have succeeded so far, and good for them.

[cascade]

Brian,

I think also part of the problem is that all the proposed competitors and BCFS are not playing on a level field - it is stacked in BCFS side - end.

If they had in place the fuel hedge program - as of March 2005 - then no need for this increase in fares - which will make anyone wanting to visit the Island or do business there very expensive. I think the fuel increase could kill of a few small business - which as we know are part of the life blood to a number of the Gulf Island.

It could be a overall plan of the management - to generate additional lines of revenue - but once it becomes to expensive for the general tourist to visit - then what ? The Ferries have capped there own market share and people will look to other ways of getting on and off the Island - plus of course the Gulf Islands. We should not forget the Northern Routes - which really do rely on the Ferry services as there "life" blood. This makes it far more expensive - hence business could close - then where do these communities go or do??

I was very surprised to see - from BC Stat's - that the Ferry increase in Fares for a 10 year period had gone up by 700% in relationship to inflation - which average out at 4.2%. I think if I am a business person in Victoria - then I would be very concerned. I know the person at the Brentwood Lodge - is having trouble getting tourist in from Vancouver - he applied for a float plane landing license - turned down. If people are going to fly in - then they would go to other more remote sites on the Island - hence he needs the person in a car - and they are not coming to the Island.

The Cross Channel ferry - train - this market now is very open - as per the last 8 months since we had a new Ferry operator offer a service which badly under cut the main players. Speed Ferries - offer - pre-booked an average price 4x people and car £30 ($65) - where as the other ferry companies where at £245 for the same - ($539) as you can see a massive difference - so he was full - other operates were in trouble - Channel Train lower there prices and so have all the other ferry companies. The customer has won.....

[BrianWilliams]

" Speed Ferries - offer - pre-booked an average price 4x people and car £30 ($65) - where as the other ferry companies were at £245 for the same - ($539) "

Well, I am amazed. I checked Speed Ferries a minute ago, and they quote £55 for 2 adults + passenger car one way, Dover-Boulogne. That's no bargain in BC, but it's a fraction of the cross-channel prices I am used to.

If they can keep rates at this level, there will be a seismic shock to all UK-Europe operators.

speedferries.com/

[kylefossett]

brianwilliams said:

"I don't think they will take it off - once the price drops."

Either do I, so be honest and post an increase that will be the 2005 benchmark for fares.

BCF's fare per passenger mile, including private car, is much less than the Channel and Irish Sea ferries. Arguably, if two folks in a big saloon car could travel from Dover to Calais for €30, there would be no competitive modes.

BC Ferries may now be sorta private (remember the 1970's UK term QANGO: Quasi-Non-Governmental Organisation? If not, ask your older colleagues, or refer to dusty leaders in The Economist), but it's still a public utility.

BCF is not a monopoly. The price of entry to the business of transporting passengers, private cars and freight to/from Vancouver Island IS stupendous, of course.

BCF places a strict ceiling on competitors' revenue with their low fares. Entrepreneurs like Harbour Lynx, Harbour Air, HeliJet and others have to offer speed and convenience to make them attractive.

These guys have succeeded so far, and good for them.

everybody carries on about a small fuel surcharge but they have no problem wearing $100.00 sneakers, spending $25+ a month for internet, and buy other expensive big ticket items just because everybody has them. unless you are travelling the ferries 10-15 times a week i don't see this small surcharge as a problem. you are already paying it to canada post, most airlines and even taxi cabs

[cascade]

The problem about the fuel is the market thinks it will stay high in the $50 to $70 per barrel for some time. In 1974 when we last had a problem the price reached $40 which in todays money is $80. The oil market claim we are in the middle of a 10 year cycle. Until America starts to reduce it dependencies on oil and China reduces it amounts plus we build new refineries - then we will have high fuel prices.

My main problem with the General Management of BCFS - is that they had in place a hedge problem - which would have put off any real increase in fares for about 6 months. If Southwest airlines can have a hedge program that pre-buys there fuel for the year (12 months) at average price of $26 per barrel - then why can't BC Ferries do the same? They know how much fuel they use each year - it is going up - 2004 it was 123M liters this year 2005 it will be 126M liters.

[BrianWilliams]

It is on, and our foot-passenger fare to Bowen Island has increased by:

35 cents.

Ouch.